Freedoom video reviews

I initially posted this in Creative Works, but then realized that almost nobody seems to read that section of the forums, so here it goes: Freedoom reviews.

Now, mind you, the reviews are not positive. And there is a bit of humor thrown in from time to time. However, I hope that at the end of the day it is constructive criticism, and not just Freedoom bashing. My ultimate goal is for the project to become genuinely better.

Freedoom review, part 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENd0Rcj-mY

Freedoom review, part 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGVUu2M2SmI

Well, first thing is that apparently you're not using the latest build of Freedoom and showcase levels and graphics that are no longer there. However the main thing with Part 1 for me is that I fail to understand why you so obviously don't like Raymoohawk's art.

If you haven't already, you could take a look at the lengthy thread where discussions of Raymoohawks's work took place. I suspect that it won't convince you but the majority of the community here agreed that Raymoohawk's sprites are a major improvement over the previous versions of the monster sprites (even though admittedly Raymoohawk himself saw the possibility for further improvement of some of them, too bad there wasn't enough time for that I suppose).

Personally I'm not liking how you imply that Raymoohawk can't draw (statement in the first video at around 1:27), because very obviously they pretty much can. I had the impression that you're confusing your own subjective opinion of the monster design with a judgement of artistic skill that tries to be objective.

Around 4:30 you ask why Freedoom couldn't make monster designs that were similar to those from Doom: "Why couldn't you just go for your version of the Imp?" etc. The answer is that it's not allowed, please refer to the original message by John Carmack:

Quote

You can't re-create anything that is clearly our work.

 

You can make a completely different game using the code with our blessing, but if it has imps, cyber demons, BFGs, etc, then you are treading on thin ice.

<...>

You could make and release a new DOOM wad that replaced everything with similary looking original art, but it would still be bound by the restrictions we place on community derivative work, so it wouldn't be "free" in the sense that the GPL'd codebase is.

If you're indeed interested in the project, I invite you to read the forum posts here, including old ones. This gave me a pretty good idea of how the project evolved over time. I'm not trying to justify Freedoom's shortcomings which do exist, but familiarising yourself with the project's history gives a good perspective on why some things ended up being what they are.

For Part 2, I mostly agree with what you say about the level design. TBH I'm not a big fan of Freedoom's levels myself, and always found many of them confusing, with difficulty unexpectedly altering between super easy and very taxing. I also never liked how secrets were done in the maps that I played. I mostly used Freedoom to play PWADs, with a lot of good episodes there going for the original level design principles.

Hope that my reply also comes across as constructive criticism! There is no doubt that you care enough about the game if you spent time and effort on the videos. In particular I like how you did analysis of the original Doom's levels in Part 2 to bring out the points that could be improved in Freedoom's levels. I believe that this is the right approach to building up a consistent design and identity for the game.

Obviously, whether or not a given graphic looks good is a subjective opinion, but I just can not agree with someone who thinks Raymoohawk is a, to paraphrase the video, a “child who can not draw.”  This looks like the reaction of someone who expects an open-source Doom clone to look exactly like Doom.

For example, the video criticizes the pink demons as “looking like plants”, but the consensus among the community here is that those worms look great and don’t need to be updated.  Raymoohawk’s work is really great; sure, they look like zombies and not living people, but FreeDoom is not an exact Doom clone.

For long time players of FreeDoom, when Raymoohawk’s sprites for the zombie, shotgun guy, and imp came out in late 2014 to mid 2015, we finally had professional looking graphics for the low level monsters. It was, to me, something that made FreeDoom vastly more fun to play. If you’re looking for graphics so bad they can be mocked (read: Not the current FreeDoom sprites), FreeDoom actually looked bad five years ago.

There were and are issues in FreeDoom; the levels still need a lot of work, although even here we’re a lot better off than we were a decade ago: Map01 is nice, albeit for someone with previous Doom experience (and the secret with the armor power ups is too hard to find); Map02 is good, although the puzzles can be a bit annoying; Map03 is good, except it’s final part should probably be replaced with a simple exit, since there is no point showing the player an entire part of the map they can never access without using the IDCLIP cheat. Levels are not as important to me; one can always just use Oblige to play random maps.

I am saying that as someone who has been openly critical of FreeDoom’s weaknesses. FreeDoom has been there, in terms of being a finished project with a full set of attractive textures, monsters, sounds, and music for about three years; the only thing it really needs now is for the levels to be polished up and finished.

Hey guys!

Thanks for the feedback, I have carefully read it and will make note of it in the final part of the review.

Also, I did not mean to offend anyone with my phrase about a child who cannot draw. These videos are my subjective opinion, and I don't see how the video implies in any way that it is objective. I really dislike how zombies look and I do feel that they are poorly drawn, so I stand by my opinion. Nevertheless, I will definitely address this point in part 3.

As for Carmack's point, thank you for bringing it up, I was not aware of it. I will address it as well.

As an aside, the “Sultan hat” Caco (as you called it in the video; I like the name) was originally posted here:

I think it’s an improvement over the older “Jellyfish” Caco, but I think both are perfectly usable when playing FreeDoom. It was the old “kid drawing” zombie/shotgun guy who really needed an overhaul (read the above linked thread); and I also prefer the snake-like Imps over the older “Cobraman” imps.

EDIT: I just realized something. I actually prefer Raymoohawk’s artwork over the original ID Games artwork; I find the old ID artwork plain in comparison to the textured detail in Raymoohawk’s work.

First of all: I do like the production quality of your video. The editing seems nice and the narration is actually quite good. Other than that, I do agree with many things, but also think the criticism is too harsh. Especially considering the topic of "art being subjective".

Many of the Freedoom sprites could use some improvement imho and I am not a big fan of the zombies as well. But I have no doubt, that over time there will be improvements, upon improvements to the sprites (as well as the levels, etc.). And generally I think it is already quite an achievement in and of itself.

I was checking the rest of your videos and actually did like the "Roguelike Doom" series, where you try to play through random Oblige Levels. Keep it up, I'd watch this thing from time to time.

15 hours ago, LouigiVerona said:

Also, I did not mean to offend anyone with my phrase about a child who cannot draw. These videos are my subjective opinion, and I don't see how the video implies in any way that it is objective.

Well, you did say in the first post that you intended your reviews as constructive criticism and I approached them as such. But the first video is basically about how you don't like the monster sprites/designs, with the only apparently constructive part in the suggestion to draw sprites as reimagined Doom monsters, which is not possible as explained above.

Also there's a difference between saying that you don't like some piece of art, and saying that its author is inept. There's this very simple rule of criticising actions not people, it helps a lot to avoid unintentional personal attacks, and makes even subjective statements more fair and balanced.

22 hours ago, samboy said:

If you’re looking for graphics so bad they can be mocked (read: Not the current FreeDoom sprites), FreeDoom actually looked bad five years ago.

I know I've got my nostalgia filter on (I started playing Freedoom with v0.7 BTW) but actually the old sprites are mostly pretty decent, and do look like something that a 90s-era Doom ripoff could have used. I think it would be fair to say that the pre-Raymoohawk monsters are better than those found in Quiver or Angst, and they don't look excessively bad if you run it in the original 320x200 resolution (I played Freedoom using MBF through DOSBox mostly, as weird as it sounds I guess). Certainly they are way less appealing when at high resolutions with filters on, like in this shot:

4 hours ago, MrFlibble said:

I think it would be fair to say that the pre-Raymoohawk monsters are better than those found in Quiver or Angst, and they don't look excessively bad if you run it in the original 320x200 resolution

Here are two pictures.  In the first one, one can see the old zombies; observe that the shotgun guy (right) looks almost the same as the pistol zombieman (left).

In the second one, we can see how Raymoohawk really improved how they looked.  The shotgun guy is fully dressed in black, while the pistol guy (zombieman) is only wearing pants. They still walk like zombies, but I actually prefer that look over how they look in the original ID Doom games.

1 minute ago, samboy said:

In the second one, we can see how Raymoohawk really improved how they looked.

I'd never argue against Raymoohawk's edits being an improvement, I just wanted to point out that the old versions weren't as bad as it is sometimes implied.

To me, Raymoohawk’s improvements to the low level monsters was the difference between FreeDoom looking like like amateur fan-made art and looking like a 1990s professional video game. The zombieman and shotgun guy looked bad enough to distract from the immersion when playing with an OpenGL port of Doom; the Imp looked OK but the sprite was much bigger than the actual monster. Raymoohawk thankfully fixed all that in 2014-2015.

I’m saying this as someone who has played FreeDoom since 2005 (anyone else remember the pink “puppy dog” demon before it became a worm?)

While I liked his improvements to other monsters, I always felt the old Caco was good enough; the other high level monsters were not distractingly bad (not having death frames for the lost souls was annoying).

Quote

To me, Raymoohawk’s improvements to the low level monsters was the difference between FreeDoom looking like like amateur fan-made art and looking like a 1990s professional video game.

I feel you've been steeped too much in the game. I have no idea who Raymoohawk is and I don't know anything about his or her drawing ability, but I can infer from what I see. Zombie men and the funny spider and the lost souls look like a child's drawing. Even if someone with poor drawing ability (like me) would not be able to draw even that, I am sharing the impression it leaves with me, an outsider. That the child's drawing had been improved is great, but I wish an actual professional artist would contribute to the project. And this is my main constructive suggestion which I voiced in the video.

Quote

But the first video is basically about how you don't like the monster sprites/designs, with the only apparently constructive part in the suggestion to draw sprites as reimagined Doom monsters, which is not possible as explained above.

I disagree that it is impossible. Granted, I did not know about what Carmack had said, copyright law is also extremely complicated and one must know precedents in order to understand what works and what doesn't, so I definitely take my suggestion back in form, but not in spirit. It's not that one could not imagine and draw an orb throwing hellish looking monster. My main point was hellish vs insect. Doom is a game about fighting monsters from hell, not large insects. If the idea is to create a 3D game not related to Doom, then why call it FreeDoom? Call it something else, please. Otherwise, get used to criticism like mine. Will address this in part 3.

Quote

Well, you did say in the first post that you intended your reviews as constructive criticism and I approached them as such.

I also said that these reviews throw in a bit of FreeDoom bashing an humour. I think it is clear from the videos that I am going over the top with some criticisms ;)
 

Quote

Also there's a difference between saying that you don't like some piece of art, and saying that its author is inept. There's this very simple rule of criticising actions not people, it helps a lot to avoid unintentional personal attacks, and makes even subjective statements more fair and balanced.

Fair point, however, I feel a little formalistic. If I draw something, and the drawing looks poor, I think it is alright to say that the author probably cannot draw. This is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. I agree that had I not said that, it would be difficult to point to me and say "Ha, Louigi has personal attacks in his review!", but I also think there is value in saying what I really feel. As an artist myself (not in a drawing sense, though), I value honest criticism. I care about FreeDoom and I am telling everyone what an outsider like myself feels and thinks when he sees the game.

Also, if we are fomalistic, I did not say that the author of the monsters cannot draw. I said it looks like something that someone who cannot draw would come up with. Did I imply that the author of the drawing is probably not a professional artist? You bet! But then if I say that the drawings look amateurish to me, I am implying that anyway. No criticism would be possible if one has to look into every word and calculate what that really comes down to. The project is public, with the goal of making something that is worth sharing, and I publicly state what I think about it.

--------------------------------------------------------

But either way, guys, the important bit I'd like to leave you with is that I am not an asshole and I know what it is like to care about the project, and try to improve it in any way you can, and compare current version to previous ones, etc. So, I will definitely try to tie things together and say more positive things about the project in part 3, since it does deserve it, definitely.

But I want to make sure that my empathy with the Freedoom community does not stand in the way of honest criticism. And I am quite happy that part 1 turned out to be this kind of subjective rant about monsters and drawing quality. I think it is useful feedback. Imagine how many people felt the same and just stopped playing? Rants and emotions are part of our perception of a game.

23 hours ago, LouigiVerona said:

Zombie men and the funny spider and the lost souls look like a child's drawing. Even if someone with poor drawing ability (like me) would not be able to draw even that, I am sharing the impression it leaves with me, an outsider. That the child's drawing had been improved is great, but I wish an actual professional artist would contribute to the project. And this is my main constructive suggestion which I voiced in the video.

Well, I personally fail to understand what makes you think that Raymoohawk's sprite work is reminiscent of a child's drawings. As a matter of fact, the zombies are more detailed that Doom's zombies, although admittedly the latter are bulkier in shape.

I suppose it would be hardly a controversial statement that Shaw's Nightmare's graphics have all the qualities of child drawings (whether this is a deliberate artistic choice or not is another matter). But with Freedoom's art, you need to substantiate such a claim with some analysis, simply saying that this is your opinion won't cut it. Now if you pointed out what exactly you perceived as flaws in the sprites, e.g. by comparing them with Doom's (like what you did with  level design in part 2), that would be far more constructive criticism that simply suggesting to commission a "professional" artist's work.

On 9/24/2018 at 1:21 PM, LouigiVerona said:

I disagree that it is impossible. Granted, I did not know about what Carmack had said, copyright law is also extremely complicated and one must know precedents in order to understand what works and what doesn't, so I definitely take my suggestion back in form, but not in spirit. It's not that one could not imagine and draw an orb throwing hellish looking monster. My main point was hellish vs insect. Doom is a game about fighting monsters from hell, not large insects. If the idea is to create a 3D game not related to Doom, then why call it FreeDoom? Call it something else, please. Otherwise, get used to criticism like mine.

It's called Freedoom because it runs on the Doom engine and is PWAD-compatible with Doom? I for one completely don't understand why the project should be shoved into the artistic aesthetic of Doom beyond the minimum sufficient for PWAD compatibility. After all, John Carmack was also right when he said that the plot wan't that important. Doom gameplay doesn't suffer at all if you replace all hellish monsters with anything else, let's say Egyptian themed monsters from Powerslave or the like (or even with placeholder mannequins from The Peopler's Doom). I'm not even mentioning the many WADs where the theme is drastically changed to something not hell related like Epic 2 or Ancient Aliens.

As for your suggestion that completely different hellish monsters can be designed, yes they can. But I'm somehow not sure if you'd like it if the monsters were all designed after the monsters from Bruegel's Dull Gret for example, which are all legitimately monsters from hell. (BTW, the old Pinky from v0.5 is kinda close to Bruegel's designs. And yes, I do believe that Dull Gret could be an inspiration.)

On 9/24/2018 at 1:21 PM, LouigiVerona said:

Fair point, however, I feel a little formalistic. If I draw something, and the drawing looks poor, I think it is alright to say that the author probably cannot draw. This is not an insult, it is a statement of fact. <...> As an artist myself (not in a drawing sense, though), I value honest criticism. I care about FreeDoom and I am telling everyone what an outsider like myself feels and thinks when he sees the game.

As I said above, the problem is in drawing apart subjective perception and facts. When you say for example that the Trilobyte looks like a floating Sultan's hat (in reference to Disney's Aladdin?), that's not a statement of fact, it's your personal, subjective interpretation; others may see an eldritch monster with a Lovecraftian vibe — in fact this is how most people who voiced their opinions here perceive this design. A subjective opinion does not justify inferences about the author, especially if you don't know that person as you mentioned above.

On 9/24/2018 at 1:21 PM, LouigiVerona said:

And I am quite happy that part 1 turned out to be this kind of subjective rant about monsters and drawing quality. I think it is useful feedback. Imagine how many people felt the same and just stopped playing? Rants and emotions are part of our perception of a game.

I have just re-watched it and I feel I need to point out one thing. During my first watch I skipped the part where you're bashing the old Pain Lord (Baron replacement) because it was already clear where the whole discourse was going, and that part was largely irrelevant because the monster sprite had been replaced a while ago with Raymoohawk's Pestmeister. However now I watched the entire segment, and you start it with quoting the wiki where it describes the Pestmeister as shown here, and then go on to rant how it doesn't match the appearance of the older Pain Lord monster. Now it's certainly not the Freedoom team's fault that you failed to get the most up-to-date version of the game to review, and it may do a considerable disservice to the project because you not only show outdated assets but also imply that the project misleads users by supplying descriptions of monsters that don't live up to their actual in-game design.

Overall, it does matter that Freedoom is still a work-in-progress project that is far from complete. It's not really constructive to apply the same judgement standards to it as to a commercially released title, or at least to any project that has reached a v1.0 release.

Many-many fair points. Will address them. I agree that I have made errors in part 1. Although that I did not know that I do not have the latest version is also important, since other people might have made such a mistake as well. I will talk about positioning, etc.

I've already commented in the youtube videos (and subscribed :P).

I get that you wanted to make a bit of fun out of the look of the graphics for entertainment purposes (after all, the first video is in the "Comedy" category) but the thing is that you went on to attack some of the sprites that actually do look good (pinky, cacodemon and imp)... and yet you said nothing about most of those that are placeholders and generally agreed on to be in need of replacement, like the wolfenstein soldier, the pain elemental or the out-of-place-style of the Arch-vile (maybe you only played phase 1?) I'd even have taken criticism for the mancubus rather than for the cacodemon. To someone who does know the project it might feel like your criticism is a bit misplaced.

I would definitely like to see the walking animation of the player sprite and zombies improved, you could have made a joke about how the player moves its legs like he needs to go to the toilet and I'm sure me and others would have laugh and agreed, it would have been a specific detail to improve on, but the "9 year old" and "can't draw" thing was not constructive and felt kinda uncalled for.

And I agree the arachnotron looks very bad, although saying that a kid would come up with that is neither descriptive nor accurate (kids have better imagination than that... :P). It was already hard enough to have any graphics at all to use for that monster so I'm quite thankful to have at least something even if it does look bad (if anyone can offer a better replacement I have no doubt it will be accepted in a heartbeat, so long as it's not copyright infringing). It would be great if you could take some time in the video to encourage contributors, because in the end Freedoom is what we make of it. If someone sees a low hanging fruit, they can submit their art and get their work immortalized by being part of the project.

In general, Freedoom's graphics do grow on you once you get used to them, even with their flaws. Nowadays Freedoom is pretty complete and you can actually fully play it without having any big black boxes moving around, which was the biggest problem with it for the longest time. It's already quite an achievement in and of itself that you can totally play WADs with it replacing Doom with completely free (BSD) graphics. Sadly it's very hard to find art that is truly free as in freedom, all of the sprites from realm667.com that you've shown in your video are not free and possibly not legal (except for one I spotted when you were quickly scrolling that actually was used in Blasphemer, I think), they are all derivatives from either Doom or other games. The project is in need of contributions.

10 hours ago, MrFlibble said:

But I'm somehow not sure if you'd like it if the monsters were all designed after the monsters from Bruegel's Dull Gret for example, which are all legitimately monsters from hell.

Personally, I'd enjoy something like that.

Imho, the thing with Fredoom style is that there's a tendency in the last years to abandon the direction of demonic dark magic and attempt to do a more alien sci-fi theme. I've said it before, but I'm of the opinion that you can do hellish themes without copying Doom (and eldritch deformities, bloodlusty worms from the dephs or strange flying horned creatures with tentacles do actually seem ok and hellish for me)... just as long you don't spoil it by introducing robots or cyborgs for sprites that originally weren't meant to show technology, because it would be out of place in medieval/gothic themed wads.

12 hours ago, Ferk said:

I've said it before, but I'm of the opinion that you can do hellish themes without copying Doom

Completely agree!

12 hours ago, Ferk said:

I get that you wanted to make a bit of fun out of the look of the graphics for entertainment purposes

Totally. I thought I'd quickly do a couple of fun videos, but when I started working on part 2, I realized I have something more constructive to say, rather than go into a rant.