HORROR IN DOOM

Hi guys,

i hope you agree that Doom Eternal needs more horror elements, not just violence and gore, I'm thinking jump scares, dark areas, creepy hallways and ect. After Doom III, Doom has gone in completely other direction - I think that Id should not forget about these horror elements that the game use to have. I want for a player to sometimes feel vulnerable and threatned, not overpowered doom slayer on a killing spree. I remember that I used to fear some of the encounters in previous games when i was low on health and ammo. What about distinguished demon sounds that you used to hear around you before you even encounter a demon? These things were epic and crucial in the Doom game!

Sorry for grammar mistakes,

let me know what you guys think

I agree with you to an extent, the original game had a perfect balance of horror elements and action (think the blue key room in E1M3 or all of E2M6) but the horror elements were already mitigated by Doom II through its less claustrophobic map design.  Doom 3 is considered the oddball of being much more horror inclined but I enjoy it for its own reasons too.  With the new game however, this one will likely lend itself into being the ultimate power fantasy and don't see the horror elements being acknowledged in any real capacity besides the game being "intense" like the last one.  Though I'll still enjoy it on those merits alone, its still Doom to me in the end.

the truth I do not think that eternal doom need terror, I'm not a lover of terror so I'm fine with how it will be eternal doom

The horror in classic Doom more or less came from the novelty of playing an FPS with dark levels at the time. IMO, it's still mostly an action game. Not that I'm against Eternal Doom taking steps to make the player feel afraid, as long as it doesn't slow the game's pace. 

Jump scares are for tiny baby children.

I agree though. A big part of why Doom grabbed and held me was the sense of foreboding. I felt like I was replaying recurring nightmares I used to have when I was younger, but this time I could fight back.

Truthfully, Doom has never been a horror game. At its heart, it's been an action game with dotted horror every now and then and you get that by, say, looking at warped UAC structures that are caked in chunks of blood and gore in newer ones. Those are dark and have some eerie vibes to them, despite their small usage. A good example is the room area in Doom 2016 where you are first directly given the Rocket Launcher.

Yes, the series took a turn after Doom 3 because Doom 3 in itself was already a turn from what Doom used to be and modern games are skipping right over Doom 3 and going back to the old times, since the action-based Doom games without overarching horror elements outnumber the horror ones.

Quake is the one that always birthed horror; there were even times in development that they've mentioned trying to get some disturbing imagery for the first game. Now that's the game they should put horror stuff back into, since whatever we got last for Quake single player (Quake 2 & 4) wasn't intended to be Quake at all. A return to form for that, like the return to form we have of Doom, would be nice. 

I don’t agree.

Even as a kid I did not find Doom scary. I was too busy killing demons to give a shit with how much they growl or roar at me. Sure, it might have had a few creepy moments and a disturbing feel, but it has always been an action game through and through. Doom 3 was fine in its own way, but Doom Eternal needs to stay to its roots and be a power fantasy.

And jumpscares are not what defines a horror experience. They’re mostly cheap tactics designed to get a quick and easy scare out of the player. The only part where they shine is when they are least expected.

I'm for the balance. I'm fine for a single dedicated horror like level or the dotted aspects of horror and eerie moments throughout the game. A dark inhuman room with ominous music playing without combat could be enough on the occasional level. Doom 2016 almost pulled it off but didn't quite do it for me.

I accept Doom Eternal will be mostly action, which is fine.

Horror is best used in Quake, not Doom. Now Quake never really delivered on its Lovecraftian promises, but it certainly was a scarier game - because it made monsters so much stronger. Put me in an arena with some pillars and a cyberdemon and okay, is cool mate. Put me in an arena with some pillars and a shambler and I get sweaty palms.

You want horror? Imagine what id could do by taking some influences from actual horror series. You're stalking the ogres and grunts, while something that you can't kill even with a BFG hunts you.

On 11/12/2018 at 5:45 PM, First Crusade said:

jump scares

Fuck jump scares! There is absolutely nothing artistic in a jump scare and it's only used by people who have zero imagination or creativity.

Not sure if horror does belong into doom. On the other hand, I remember that Doom 2016 did radiate some tension on the first playthrough, which I thoroughly enjoyed. But I think that defines better as terror, than horror.

Horror in doom works well when its used as atmosphere. Less so when its allowed to dictate the speed of action (Doom 3).

2 minutes ago, drokk said:

Horror in doom works well when its used as atmosphere.

Which is why I consider Doom 64 to be the true Doom 3.

9 minutes ago, TakenStew22 said:

Which is why I consider Doom 64 to be the true Doom 3.

You know I am going to like every time Doom 64 is mentioned! haha

Yeah, I agree that the newer Doom games need more horror in them, however, by looking at how vibrant and colorful Eternal appears to be it might not happen yet. Or maybe not, the trailer was definitely dark and it emphasized the destruction caused by the invasion.

It's best if horror in Doom is used as just an element to create atmosphere and tension, but not be the main focus of the game, the mistake Doom 3 did. It was too conflicted between action and horror to succeed in either department, particularly the latter since it relied on the same jumpscares and other inefficient scare tactics for the entirety of the game. A Doom 64 kind of game but faster paced that also explores more locations than simply techbases and temples would be most welcome.

Doom has, over the years, fluctuated between different tones. Its initial hybrid of action and horror (but leaning heavily on the action) gave way to a reversal of the balance in the form of the PSX, and N64 incarnations, as well as Doom 3. Then for the comeback and now "Eternal," it's closer to the original—lots of action and a bit of horror. If we're lucky, there will be another pendulum swing for whatever follows, but for now, id has not really shown much interest in that aesthetic or mood. 

On 11/12/2018 at 6:45 PM, First Crusade said:

i hope you agree that Doom Eternal needs [...] jump scares

Big Fucking Nope.

Either way, I personally don't care whether Doom Eternal goes for a more oppressive atmosphere or not. As long as the game as a whole turns out great, I'll take anything, with horror or without.

On 11/12/2018 at 5:45 PM, First Crusade said:

I want for a player to sometimes feel vulnerable and threatned, not overpowered doom slayer on a killing spree.

Except that's who Doom Slayer is. He was estabilished like that long time ago and it's not going to change, and why would it?

Firstly, there's no room for another horror Doom game. Doom has been estabilished as a fast paced shoot 'em up game a long time ago, and every Doom game that deviates from this will end up like Doom 3 - massively disliked.

Secondly, if the writers for some reason considered implementing this suggestion into the game, how would they? They've already estabilished Doom Slayer as someone who the demons fear and as someone who doesn't fear anything. What would be the abomination that would scare even the mighty Doom Slayer?

On 11/12/2018 at 5:45 PM, First Crusade said:

After Doom III, Doom has gone in completely other direction - I think that Id should not forget about these horror elements that the game use to have.

It hasn't gone in a completely different direction, it returned to its roots. Doom 3 is the game that has gone in a completely different direction when compared to the rest of the Doom games.

On 11/12/2018 at 5:45 PM, First Crusade said:

I'm thinking jump scares, dark areas, creepy hallways and ect.

Those examples do not sum up horror games at all. It does sum up Doom 3 and the rest of the poorly designed horror games, but not actual good ones like Amnesia, SOMA, Penumbra etc.

Overall, for what reason would someone fix something that's not broken? Doom is fine the way it is.

2 hours ago, BLλZING_DUST said:

Those examples do not sum up horror games at all. It does sum up Doom 3 and the rest of the poorly designed horror games, but not actual good ones like Amnesia, SOMA, Penumbra etc. 

But since when lack of actual gameplay, that's dumbed-down to simple hiding/running, did became a good design?
I'd rather name old Thief series or Prey 17 on the highest difficulties good decisions instead of that.

The only horror that I can see working in Doom Eternal is fear for side characters, fear for their safety.

The Doomslayer can survive hell just fine. But regular humans can't. But VEGA can't.

11 hours ago, Boilers! said:

But since when lack of actual gameplay, that's dumbed-down to simple hiding/running, did became a good design?
I'd rather name old Thief series or Prey 17 on the highest difficulties good decisions instead of that.

Horror games aren't about gameplay mechanics, they're about the atmosphere. Giving the players means to defend themselves in horror games will give the players a sense of security, which in turn makes the game less scary.

If you think that the older DOOM games (sans DOOM 3) are about being oppressed rather than going on a demon-slaying slaughterfest you're looking at it through rose-tinted spectacles, especially if your experience came from when you were younger. Like, honestly, we're talking about a game where you can hold as many big guns as you can find (with Doomguy putting on a slasher smile when he finds a new toy), intermissions messages pop up that feel like they were written by someone on a testosterone overdose, and you can punch demons so hard that they literally explode into blood and gibs.

If your younger self saw DOOM 2016 (or DOOM Eternal, for that matter), then you'd probably be shitting bricks at those games as well. I remember when I was young that I found a fuckin' Jimmy Neutron game scary. Being scared of games was just how we were back then.

@chemo Agreed but you shouldn't deny there were brief but significant moments of horror, tension and terror. The Cyberdemon introduction was intense with the roar, stomps, ominous music, no enemy in sight except for 4 dead Barons we never witnessed until then. Leaving the room to face what was out there needed a little bravery.

Then during the episodes you come across some pretty gory scenes amplified by some of the darker music.

Also When you hear grunts of distant monsters it can add to the tension. However to a experienced player they only serve as a useful game mechanic (I can hear these types of enemies walking around, I may have not visited this location yet or a trap was set off).

2 hours ago, Chezza said:

@chemo Agreed but you shouldn't deny there were brief but significant moments of horror, tension and terror. The Cyberdemon introduction was intense with the roar, stomps, ominous music, no enemy in sight except for 4 dead Barons we never witnessed until then. Leaving the room to face what was out there needed a little bravery.

 

Then during the episodes you come across some pretty gory scenes amplified by some of the darker music.

 

Also When you hear grunts of distant monsters it can add to the tension. However to a experienced player they only serve as a useful game mechanic (I can hear these types of enemies walking around, I may have not visited this location yet or a trap was set off).

Yeah I mean classic DOOM does have its moments here and there, but they're a background element, not the focus. Not to mention, I'd argue that DOOM 2016 handled horror in a similar way, such as the various scenes of the aftermath from the demonic invasion and some of the holograms, especially the one of the ritual in the Lazarus Labs. I think DOOM Eternal will be in a similar way, I'm already getting those vibes with the hallways made of flesh especially.

jgspkjgpsdjgpsng;

..need true terror original Cyber Demon in DOOM2 brought back to DOOM Eternal

On 11/21/2018 at 12:45 PM, chemo said:

If you think that the older DOOM games (sans DOOM 3) are about being oppressed rather than going on a demon-slaying slaughterfest you're looking at it through rose-tinted spectacles

About half of the levels in the original game have dark, suspenseful or downright evil sounding music. The game features diminishing lighting which even in the words of Romero is making the game automatically scary. Kevin Cloud said that with DOOM they wanted to convey the concept of scary and dark. There are levels that are suspiciously empty just waiting to unleash nasty traps at the player (Deimos Lab) and there are levels that throw players into confusing and oppressive death-trap labyrinths (Halls of the Damned) - just to name a few. Even thematically you're a lone survivor trying to get out by all means necessary facing demons and the undead in hostile environments.

Is that the only thing going on in DOOM? Of course not. But neither is the insane action and heavy metal. Acting like this game is nothing but a demon-slaying vacation is ignoring huge parts of it.

I replayed Doom and Doom 2 just before I got Doom 2016.

I was surprised about the horror and frightening elements in Doom 1 (btw some of Doom 1s hell levels looked like they've been set in medieval period, all wooden walls and chains). I forgot about these elements since my memory of Doom was more influenced by Doom 2 which was much more about action, metal and science fiction. And to be honest, I enjoyed Doom 2 much more.

On the other side id really has to make sure Doom 2019 is still intriguing and hell a horrible place (still can be tech themed), otherwise the action is not fun because you just feel like Superman fighting against some pickpockets. 

16 hours ago, Touchdown said:

 

About half of the levels in the original game have dark, suspenseful or downright evil sounding music. The game features diminishing lighting which even in the words of Romero is making the game automatically scary. Kevin Cloud said that with DOOM they wanted to convey the concept of scary and dark. There are levels that are suspiciously empty just waiting to unleash nasty traps at the player (Deimos Lab) and there are levels that throw players into confusing and oppressive death-trap labyrinths (Halls of the Damned) - just to name a few. Even thematically you're a lone survivor trying to get out by all means necessary facing demons and the undead in hostile environments.

 

Is that the only thing going on in DOOM? Of course not. But neither is the insane action and heavy metal. Acting like this game is nothing but a demon-slaying vacation is ignoring huge parts of it.

I didn't say that DOOM is all about action. Hell, I think that if there's some horror elements in-between large fights, then it helps in preventing the game from becoming monotonous and it puts into perspective the kind of evil demonkind is (and as I mentioned in my previous post, it's not like it's something that DOOM 2016 completely lacks and I'm still optimistic that Eternal is the same). But even so, at the end of the day the original is primarily an action game. The manual even bills it as an "action-oriented slugathon".

My 2-cents:

I think that the original doom (in beta versions/ Tom Hall era) was supposed to much more lore-focused and darker game with a slower pace. But for one reason or another, they ended up ditching most of that stuff and making the game faster paced. Despite that change in direction, the game still retained some elements of horror and grit. Just look at the blue key room in E1M3, end area of E1M5 or the dead baron bodies in E2M8.

The problem is that with the passage of time, people got used to doom and found it less scary. Doom 2 played a big role in changing people's perception by focusing more on the fast-pace action and less on horror/grit. This, coupled with people becoming better players (and using autorun+straferunning to move at 50 km/h) meant that doom became a run and gun (rip n tear) game.

By the time doom 3 arrived, people recognized the original doom as a fast paced game rather than a horror game. Hence Doom 3 was/is criticized by classic doomers as "its not doom" and to this day considered as the "Black sheep of doom franchise". 

The new-id realized that horror is not going to work, so they went in the opposite direction, which is fine for me but personally I would have preferred some gritty visuals/ atmosphere as long as they don't affect gameplay.

I agree with you with most of your points but as everyone else said, jumpscares are a no no.

But with what Doom is now there's almost no way to make it scary, you already know you're God himself so there's nothing holding you back from moving forward, blasting.