hello i would like to make doom maps and i need some advice

i would like to be a doom map maker im using the doom map maker doom builder 2 and id like it if someone could offer me advice to make high quality maps people will enjoy mechanically speaking i know i need to make the maps but i need advice and help on how to make them function properly ok?

Play good wads and try to do what they do. Open them in the Doom Builder if you have any questions on how they do specific tricks. I'd recommend you'd start out Boom: Doom 2 (Doom Format) or Doom: Doom 2 (Doom Format) as they are easier to use and learn.

4 hours ago, Juza said:

Play good wads and try to do what they do. Open them in the Doom Builder if you have any questions on how they do specific tricks.

This is a great place to start, as it will give you the specific mechanics behind the various mapping techniques. So,

• Examine other's maps in your map editor.
• Check out the Doom Editing forum on this site for detailed instructions on basic and advanced techniques.
• Browse through the Doom Wiki for a wealth of knowledge on all things Doom.
• Search the Doomworld forums for variations on the phrases "good maps", "fun levels", "map editing", etc. Frequently, there are topics about good level design.
• Find as many mapping guides as you can - each one has something to offer. Learn how and where to search for these guides.

But, most important of all:

• Don't build high-quality maps. Build any ol' thing that's playable. Then build another. And another. Most people's first few maps really suck. That's ok - don't get discouraged. First crawl, then walk, then run. You first have to learn the editor - keyboard shortcuts, using the mouse buttons, etc. Then, you'll pick up on various line and sector tricks. Making a map look and play well comes after learning the techniques.

Welcome to the forums, and best of luck making maps! If you get stuck, there are lots of great mappers here who are willing and able to steer you in the right direction.

It'll get easy for you as you make maps, I've got at least twenty maps that I made for the singular purpose of learning things such as doors, lifts, poly objects, 3d floors ,ect....

That was my method, I'm still novice, but this was how I learned enough to tackle some of the more advanced mapping stuff.
Just figure out a process to mapping that suits your tastes and pace yourself.

And avoid the "UDMF" format for now, it's got a lot of advanced features that are nice to have, but try to figure out the basics first with just "Doom" format

I'm retty sure this guy is a troll, guys...

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1940325

4 hours ago, wolfmcbeard said:

And avoid the "UDMF" format for now, it's got a lot of advanced features that are nice to have, but try to figure out the basics first with just "Doom" format

Now they tell me...

I'd say, start off making 1-map wads. Once that becomes simple, try adding 1-2 custom textures in the map. Then maybe a custom animated texture or a new enemy or a new gun. Just slowly expand outwards. And finally, just remember this: If you feel like you're producing stuff that's too low quality and when you see people do amazing things in the editor, don't be discouraged! They may have had years or even a decade or two of practice with DooM! Stick with it and soon enough you'll go from box rooms with 1 demon and a super shotgun to a full blown *insert map amount here* semi/full megawads.

8 hours ago, guitardz said:

I'm retty sure this guy is a troll, guys...

 

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1940325

Just because he wants to play some meme wad?

On 11/30/2018 at 7:51 AM, MajorMan said:

i would like to be a doom map maker im using the doom map maker doom builder 2 and id like it if someone could offer me advice to make high quality maps people will enjoy mechanically speaking i know i need to make the maps but i need advice and help on how to make them function properly ok?

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/53-editing-tutorials/

https://forum.zdoom.org/viewforum.php?f=39&sid=968305db5659f74b90f26652c560a350

https://zdoom.org/wiki/Tutorials

8 hours ago, guitardz said:

Now they tell me...

I'm as deep into UDMF mapping as they come, and I would also agree to never start with it. It's far too overwhelming.

Personally I wouldn't even start with GZDoomBuilder. I'd start with DB2 (or DBX) and target limit-removing Doom 2 in Doom format. It is so important to get your head around the fundamentals of the engine before jumping into the extended functionality of full-fat GZDoom in UDMF format.

12 hours ago, wolfmcbeard said:

.......
And avoid the "UDMF" format for now, it's got a lot of advanced features that are nice to have, but try to figure out the basics first with just "Doom" format

Worst advice I've seen in a while.

While the basic architectural features of an editor are the same in any layout, starting out by limiting oneself to editing in DOOM format simply means that one has to relearn all specific features for GZDoom (Eternity, EDGE, etc.).

To learn what is possible in various mapping formats read all available tutorials (sse above) and WIKIs

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom

https://zdoom.org/wiki/Main_Page

https://3dfxdev.net/edgewiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

http://eternity.youfailit.net/wiki/Main_Page

http://slade.mancubus.net/index.php?page=wiki

For features of GZDoom Builder - Bugfix see the Refmanual which comes with the editor

17 minutes ago, Kappes Buur said:

Worst advice I've seen in a while.

 

While the basic architectural features of an editor are the same in any layout, starting out by limiting oneself to editing in DOOM format simply means that one has to relearn all specific features for GZDoom (Eternity, EDGE, etc.).

I couldn't disagree more! It'd be like a kid saying they wanted to draw something, and instead of handing them paper and a pen you give them Photoshop. It'd be completely overwhelming. 

For complete newbies I'd say it's more important for them to understand the basics like sectors, linedefs and things in a simple, uncluttered and easy to digest format. That's why I'd also suggest not starting with GZDB, simply because there are so many buttons and toolbars it can be really offputting when you're just trying to understand what a sidedef is.

Full UDMF mapping doesn't require you to "relearn" anything as it doesn't change any fundamentals about mapping, it merely adds a thousand extra features. Features that just cloud the fundamentals when you don't understand what the fundamentals even are. I totally get where you're coming from if the workflow in UDMF was different to vanilla, but it isn't, it's just more advanced.

I love UDMF, Elementalism is unsurprisingly entirely made in it, but I am so glad I started mapping a couple of years ago with basic limit-removing Doom. It means I could naturally graduate to UDMF over time as I got better and more advanced with the options available. 

Personally I'd advise starting with GZDB to familiarise yourself with the tool but start with a simple format (ie not UDMF). I wouldn't want to sink time into a different editor when you are going to inevitably end up with GZDB but that's just me.

UDMF definitely has a steep learning curve. I've been using it for 10 months now and I still learn new stuff pretty much every week. Although there's something to be said for a good ol' fashioned baptism of fire :P

43 minutes ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

.....

UDMF definitely has a steep learning curve. I've been using it for 10 months now and I still learn new stuff pretty much every week. Although there's something to be said for a good ol' fashioned baptism of fire :P

Starting out with UDMF is no different than starting out with vanilla Doom format. In both cases it is necassary to do some learning, except that Doom format offers a very limited feature set completely different from, for example, Doom in Hexen format or UDMF. While it appears that the advanced ports are more difficult to learn that is not true at all. One does not start out by creating a map with all features offered by the advanced port, that process is a gradual one. Start out with a simple layout and progress from there.

As I mentioned before, mapping for Doom format to begin with only limits the features available for the map creator, having to relearn a completely different feature set when progressing to more elaborate map constructions later on with other ports. However, luckily modern editors like DB2, GZDB, GZDBBF and Slade3 help a lot in that respect. Inevitably one winds up mapping for an advanced port. Who does not want to incorporate a 3D floor in a map, which is not possible in DOOM format.

I would recommend to play maps in various ports and decide which one is the preferred one and create maps for that port. If that is vanilla DOOM, that it be then. If it is GZDoom, then there are countless tutorials, both in text and video formats. If it is Eternity, 3DGE, etc  then this is more difficult as there are not too many tutorials for those ports.

Ultimately, it is up to the beginning mapper to figure out which way to turn.

Help is always available just for the asking.

2 hours ago, Bauul said:

.....

Full UDMF mapping doesn't require you to "relearn" anything as it doesn't change any fundamentals about mapping, it merely adds a thousand extra features. Features that just cloud the fundamentals when you don't understand what the fundamentals even are. I totally get where you're coming from if the workflow in UDMF was different to vanilla, but it isn't, it's just more advanced.

.....

 

In your opinion there is nothing different from, for example, DOOM linedefs 

to linedef types in Doom in Hexen or UDMF

How many times has someone asked where such and such feature is in DOOM format only to be told to use Doom in Hexen or UDMF.

7 hours ago, Juza said:

Just because he wants to play some meme wad?

It's a standard Ken M format troll, ask a seemingly normal question, wait for a couple of normal replies, then hit them with the punchline comment and disappear.  The only thing that makes me think it might not actually be a troll is that he hasn't come back to deliver a punchline comment on this post yet.

As for all the commotion over where to start out in mapping.  Yeah, UDMF is probably not the best place, it's overly complex and there is a ton to take on.  I conciously made the decision to start there for the features, and that's okay, but I do have a lot of experience with build engine editing from years ago, I just wanted the features.

I had a hard time with UDMF at first, I had an easier experience in gzbd (was the first thing I found to be honest) using some of the other formats, the advanced stuff seemed easier to pull off in UDMF, so I say it out of personal experience and someone who's only other experience with screwing around with a game at at all was FalloutNV's geck.

For me it was the opposite: Started out with UDMF because I really liked the removal of limitations of the oldengine. Sure there is a lot of stuff to discover and figure out but as KappesBuur said, you don't cram every single feature into your first map anyway. Most people will focus on actually learning the basics first. That's what I did at least.

On 12/1/2018 at 1:21 AM, guitardz said:

I'm retty sure this guy is a troll, guys...

 

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1940325

Yeah, the complete lack of capitalization and punctuation screams "troll" to me, although why someone would troll here instead of a community for a more recent game with a larger membership is strange.

It seems pretty common here, which I do find odd.

23 hours ago, Bauul said:

Personally I wouldn't even start with GZDoomBuilder. I'd start with DB2 (or DBX) and target limit-removing Doom 2 in Doom format. It is so important to get your head around the fundamentals of the engine before jumping into the extended functionality of full-fat GZDoom in UDMF format.

I found gzdoom builder easier to understand when I started mapping. Mostly of its drawing tools, which don't require use right mouse click and keep it to draw sectors or any wanted shape unlike in db2 or dbx. Also, it has guidelines to help if you have problems with drawing, but only on normal drawing mode. 

On 12/1/2018 at 11:25 AM, Bauul said:

 

I couldn't disagree more! It'd be like a kid saying they wanted to draw something, and instead of handing them paper and a pen you give them Photoshop. It'd be completely overwhelming. 

 

For complete newbies I'd say it's more important for them to understand the basics like sectors, linedefs and things in a simple, uncluttered and easy to digest format. That's why I'd also suggest not starting with GZDB, simply because there are so many buttons and toolbars it can be really offputting when you're just trying to understand what a sidedef is.

 

Full UDMF mapping doesn't require you to "relearn" anything as it doesn't change any fundamentals about mapping, it merely adds a thousand extra features. Features that just cloud the fundamentals when you don't understand what the fundamentals even are. I totally get where you're coming from if the workflow in UDMF was different to vanilla, but it isn't, it's just more advanced.

 

I love UDMF, Elementalism is unsurprisingly entirely made in it, but I am so glad I started mapping a couple of years ago with basic limit-removing Doom. It means I could naturally graduate to UDMF over time as I got better and more advanced with the options available. 

Christ yes!

It took me years to get to the level of map-making I am at now!  If somebody had advised me back when I began to use something as advanced as UDMF format, I'd have thrown the towel in before I'd ever really gotten started!  UDMF is for people who already have a firm grasp of what does what in Doom.  It isn't for people who are just trying to figure things out.

I love your analogy, Bauul.  Pencil and paper vs Photoshop.  It is a very apt one.  Making Doom maps is a complex process.  It is only 2D, but there are a lot of basics to learn.  How to make sectors go up and down - how to make doors, lifts, varying elevations, how to make platforms, crushers, and on and on and on.  Even in vanilla Doom, it can take some time to learn how to do these.  But then throw in UDMF format.  It gives each of these operations a ton of enriching options.  However, the implementation of many of these options are very arcane.  It takes a lot of reading and watching of tutorial videos to be able to understand many of them.  But when you do this, the people who presented them, assume you have an understanding of the Doom fundamentals already.  If you don't, you can very easily be left more confused than before you started.

Learn the basics, first, MajorMan.  Start with simple maps first, trying out different features in them, using only the vanilla Doom format.  Don't worry too much about how good the maps are.  Don't be too bothered about whether a map will be fun to play.  First, learn what does what.  Once you do start to get a handle on things, you'll start wanting to make bigger and more complex maps.  THen, once you get there, you may then want to start experimenting with the more complex formats like UDMF.

In the mean time, don't be afraid to ask questions.  There's a lot of folks here who'll be more than happy to help you.  But more than anything else, do it for the sheer enjoyment of it.  For me, making Doom maps is a lot like playing with the ultimate Lego set.  I get to build then run around in what I built.  I love it!

Here's to hoping you find that level of enjoyment, too.  And we're here to help you every step of the way when you need it.

On 12/1/2018 at 1:30 PM, Kappes Buur said:

Starting out with UDMF is no different than starting out with vanilla Doom format.

 

Help is always available just for the asking.

 

Wrong wrong wrong!  Have you even looked at a Linedef definer in the right-click options in UDMF?  There are like eight blocks there that just say 'Argument'.  What are those even for?

We know why they're there.  But will somebody who's just getting started know?  Or what?  Are you trying to consign some poor guy to having to watch tons of videos and to read a bunch of tutorials prior to even attempting his first map?  It'd be like saying to a guy, 'Alright.  You've got your first school book now, so we're sending you off to college.  You better work hard!  If you can't cut it, we're gonna make fun of you mercilessly for it!'

That'd just be cruel.  If one's aim was to irreversibly discourage a guy from getting into the Doom map-making community, then this would certainly be a way to do it.

I do agree with your last statement, though.

Ask!  There's tons of us here who take a lot of enjoyment from helping!

I am always amazed at how some people view the present Doom mapping scene.

For years it was only the DOOM format, which was embraced by most Doomworld members and still is today by some, as if it were a religion. I remember the old times when the slightest mention of ZDoom would start a fire storm of posts by denouncing any advanced features. At that time I only visited Doomworld on a few occasions and finally gave up because of the close mindedness of the principle protagonists.

When Randi started the ZDoom format and opened the ZDoom forum, many, many map builders, old and new, asked for more and more features to be added to ZDoom,  which were added gladly and eagerly. Then when Randi published Zeth, the ZDoom specific editor, I jumped ship and started mapping for ZDoom. Finally the restrictive feature set of DOOM could be laid to rest. There was no visual editor plugin to preview once mapping design, just the tenacious effort of testing and retesting one's design and learning how to use the editor for maximum effect.

But the DOOM scene has changed.

Now, of course, we have GZDoom with the OpenGL renderer and GZDoom Builder in two forms, GZDB and GZDBBF, and the UDMF(ormat) to let your imagination fly. The only cost is to sit down and learn the feature set. This is not accomplished in one hour or one day. It will take time.

As some people recently liked to present some comparisons, pencil and paper versus Photoshop, first school book and college curriculum, I would give those new to map construction more credit for their intelligence. My comparison is more like either buying an old Volkswagen Beetle versus a new model car of whatever make. I'll go for the automatic transmission any time. :-)

What I am pointing out, something that is seemingly hard to swallow for some, is that with the capabilities build into today's editors there is no need to start out with such a restrictive format as DOOM format. Granted, GZDB has more bells and whistles for somebody just starting out than they need for a simple map. But then a first map is not constructed with every feature available in the editor.

Well, my advice is simple, whatever format you choose, it is ultimately up to you, have fun constructing maps.

40 minutes ago, Kappes Buur said:

I am always amazed at how some people view the present Doom mapping scene.

 

For years it was only the DOOM format, which was embraced by most Doomworld members and still is today by some, as if it were a religion. I remember the old times when the slightest mention of ZDoom would start a fire storm of posts by denouncing any advanced features. At that time I only visited Doomworld on a few occasions and finally gave up because of the close mindedness of the principle protagonists.

 

When Randi started the ZDoom format and opened the ZDoom forum, many, many map builders, old and new, asked for more and more features to be added to ZDoom,  which were added gladly and eagerly. Then when Randi published Zeth, the ZDoom specific editor, I jumped ship and started mapping for ZDoom. Finally the restrictive feature set of DOOM could be laid to rest. There was no visual editor plugin to preview once mapping design, just the tenacious effort of testing and retesting one's design and learning how to use the editor for maximum effect.

 

But the DOOM scene has changed.

Now, of course, we have GZDoom with the OpenGL renderer and GZDoom Builder in two forms, GZDB and GZDBBF, and the UDMF(ormat) to let your imagination fly. The only cost is to sit down and learn the feature set. This is not accomplished in one hour or one day. It will take time.

 

As some people recently liked to present some comparisons, pencil and paper versus Photoshop, first school book and college curriculum, I would give those new to map construction more credit for their intelligence. My comparison is more like either buying an old Volkswagen Beetle versus a new model car of whatever make. I'll go for the automatic transmission any time. :-)

 

What I am pointing out, something that is seemingly hard to swallow for some, is that with the capabilities build into today's editors there is no need to start out with such a restrictive format as DOOM format. Granted, GZDB has more bells and whistles for somebody just starting out than they need for a simple map. But then a first map is not constructed with every feature available in the editor.

 

Well, my advice is simple, whatever format you choose, it is ultimately up to you, have fun constructing maps.

 

 

 

You make some excellent points, Kappes Burr.  If one is going to learn to do a thing, why shouldn't they just dive in feet first and start getting to it?

But here's the thing.

What even is UDMF?  I know.  You know.  But the first time I saw it, I was like wtf is this?  What does it even mean?  I had to search Doomworld for about a good twenty minutes before I found a decent explanation on it.  And I'm a way experienced map-maker.  What does a guy do who's just decided he wants to give this try?  Get way confused, would be my guess.  He switches to UDMF and suddenly, he has to learn at least three or four new things just to make a sector go up or down.

Doom is easy to make maps in because it is only 2D.  Me, being a way experienced map-maker, have stuck with Doom because of this.  I've given a go at Quake and Quake 2's editors.  I've fiddled with some stuff in Doom3.  I come back to just plain old Doom every time.  Why?  Because you can get fabulous results without needing to learn a lot of stuff.  You just draw sectors, decide how high they are, put some doors in, paint some textures on, and then drop some monsters and pickups in and you're ready to play what you've built.  With slightly more than minimal effort, you can make a map that is pretty good.  With a reasonable amount of effort, you can make something that approaches exceptional.  But most importantly of all, it is an easy platform on which to learn, and one upon which you can get decent results without needing to learn a lot of stuff.  Programming language, needing to understand polygon stuff, and so on.  You just draw your rooms and you're good to go.  It is very easy to learn.

Now you can make some way exceptional stuff, yes.  But in order to do it, you need to learn formats like UDMF.  But I'm here to tell you, if one wants to start fiddling with that, they're going to want a pretty solid understanding of basic map-making first.  Without that, UDMF is just going to be way confusing.  It's like a guy picking up Legos for the first time in his life.  Anybody can build with Legos.  But let's say that that person buys a way advanced set for his first go.  The pieces have to be put together in just the right way, and there are these huge instruction sheets one has to follow.  This guy has never messed with Legos before in his life.  He has never even put two blocks together before.  'What the hell is all this, then?!' he might ask himself.  That person might become discouraged by how complicated it all is and just give up on it.  That's the sort of thing we're talking about here.

Sure, there's going to be guys out there who'll be able to immediately intuit advanced stuff pretty easily.  Or they absorb information like a sponge and get it on the first go.  But for the rest of us, yeah, people like me, we have to learn new stuff by starting with the basics.  You throw most guys into the deep end when they're just learning to swim, they're gonna be way intimidated.  That is if they don't just outright drown!  Best to let people like that play in the shallow end for a while, first.  Once they get comfortable with being in the water, they might decide to venture into the areas that are deeper.

Well, I’m new to „level designing“ myself and I'd like to share my experiences ,- that‘s what and how I did it so far.

A while ago, I started in plain Doom 2 format without knowing about UDMF. I just found the Doombuilder on the internet more or less by chance, and thought to give it a try. Without a guide or sth. else, I just started it by myself. Even that „simple“ format was a challenge to me. It felt like chess, the rules are very simple but winning the game is a pain in the .....

I remember doing my first room with a door connected to a downstair section, it was a horrible experience. The door would never open correctly. 

Or completing that wall:

It took me half an hour or so to figure out how those damn upper/middle/lower textures work. You can do that puzzle in two minutes or less if you know how. 

That was the point when I googled for hints and tuorials. I found the editing guide by melon here in Doomworld and went through each step. It's a well done basics guide by the way. I got interested in the UDMF format with its possibilities and decided to learn that as well. I did it step by step, always the same procedure. 4 simple rooms and doors only until every door worked properly in different heights and with various locks. After that, 4 rooms and lifts triggered via switches, walkover-linedefs, whatever else... then my first teleporter... and so on,  up to my first little script. It is all doable if you don't rush yourself. 

I'm still lightyears away from the quality of a foursite.wad. or the abilities that senior members have. But I can do much better than the death.wad and that's a start. 

Another credit goes to chubzdoomer, his video tutorials are "Hell Yeah" !!!

I recently learned about the 3D water effect and it works fine. Thank you !!!

6 hours ago, Kappes Buur said:

What I am pointing out, something that is seemingly hard to swallow for some, is that with the capabilities build into today's editors there is no need to start out with such a restrictive format as DOOM format. Granted, GZDB has more bells and whistles for somebody just starting out than they need for a simple map. But then a first map is not constructed with every feature available in the editor.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Having all the features GZDoom offers will tempt new mappers level designers to use them - very likely without rhyme or reason. The result will be a dumpster fire of a map, with print() messages telling the player what's going on, and stealth monsters... we've seen enough of those maps to know it's true.

That of course doesn't mean a vanilla map will automatically be better (in terms of gameplay) than an UDMF GZDoom map. But a good UDMF GZDoom map is so to speak a superset of a good vanilla map: if you can make good vanilla maps there should be no problems adapting to make sensible use of additional GZDoom features.