How would you rework the Arch-Vile?

The original Arch-Vile with its line of sight attack that blinds you is feeling a bit dated so I've been mulling over some ways to rework it and have been putting some ideas to the test. While the results have been ok, I'm not quite sure what direction I want to take it. There's been many different variations over the decades, from the handful of modded versions to the more vanilla Doom 3 style (and maybe this would be a better question to ask after Doom Eternal comes out), but all of them seem to have their own idea of what an Arch-Vile should do. Since I'm in a rut, I figured what better community to ask than the classic Doom community itself?

So, assuming there are no technical issues at play here, how would you guys rework the Arch-Vile? Keep it the same, maybe with a few tweaks? Perhaps remove an attack or add a new one? I'm interested to see what the general community's thoughts are 24 years later.

Personally I wouldn't change anything about it. With that said, I will say that the fire in your face when it attacks can be troublesome since it halfway blinds you. But not so bad to warrant me wanting a change.

To be honest, I would say Arch-vile is a pretty well designed monster.

Arch-viles are always the most threatening ones and players always want to kill them first. However, they will immediately turn to someone who dealt damage to them, which seems weird at first (all other monsters have a certain threshold when they don't change target even taken damage from another target), but this forces the player to find the correct moment to kill them instead of killing them easier without taking too much risk. Another thing is that other monsters can't target an Arch-vile, so Arch-viles would mostly die to cross fires (of course you can kill them by yourself, or they can even kill themselves sometimes), not direct infighting.

From a player's standpoint, there are so many strategies around the design of Arch-viles. For example, control where you kill other monsters, so Arch-viles can't get near the corpses. From a designer's standpoint, you can cover Arch-viles with a wall of meat shields, or make Arch-viles spawn in when the player thought he/she is in the clear, or even the designer pre-put the corpses to counter the player's strategies.

I feel its fire attack should always have been a visible wave of flame, like the maulotaur's attack. This probably wasn't implemented and became a hitscan attack in order to avoid taxing the processors of that era. 

1 hour ago, Boondorl said:

So, assuming there are no technical issues at play here, how would you guys rework the Arch-Vile?

Don't "fix" what isn't broken. Viles are fine as is.

I wouldn't change it. The vile creates an interesting dynamic in what is a relatively projectile-heavy based enemy set.

Give it a slightly higher pain chance, have the flames do tick damage, keep the explosion the same, and dump the damn instantaneous target switching if you happen to hit it while it's attacking something else.

Technically makes it more dangerous if you can't get out of its line of sight, but also a bit more fun to fight. 

Me and Noisyvelvet put together a new vile couple of years back, which i haven’t personally used yet. Can’t check the decorate for it rn, but i think we buffed hitpoints by about 15-20%. I used a pale green + ‘whites’ in the palette to slightly shift the sprite visuals, so he can be told apart from other viles. Noisyvelvet’s version looks & acts like a normal Archvile until he takes damage, mine’s corpse green off the bat. The one extra trick we gave him was teleportation, with some custom sprite frames for that.

Dub: Warpvile

The old blog i had for my Doom stuff is gone now, so got no link to a file atm, but can upload in January if anyone’s interested. Or Noisyvelvet will probably still have it.

He works out like a slightly more pesky Archvile but isn’t a great deviation from the source material. If i put out any more maps, he’ll be in it, but that’s not on the immediate horizon.

Oh, and as a side note the Hades Elemental from Realm 667 was referenced to get the teleporting working flawlessly.

I also agree that the arch-vile is fine. However, in some future mapset, I'd like to break it into two enemies just for fun: one with the los attack, and other with the reviving one.

I'm fine with them the way they are. I'd probably only remove their notarget flag so that enemies can target them as well as opposed to plain ignore.

What I dislike about the arch-vile is his ability to lock target on me (?). Sometimes I am hiding behind a pillar, but emerge too soon and his attack still gets me. Originally I thought after breaking line of sight he has to target me again, thus starting his animation again. But that seems not to be the case.

So, that’d be my idea of a „better“ Arch-vile. If this makes it too easy, though it could be offset by a faster attack. Oh, and I would love to have an improved animation, where I can more clearly see, when this stupid attack is going to happen. 

Archvile is perfect, just as God intended <3

Give it a powerful melee attack. I honestly think that every enemy in Doom should have had some sort of a melee attack. I just find it quite silly and amusing when I'm "touching" a Mancubi, Arachnotron or even an Archvile and the only thing they do is keep running around.

Also something that quick with a melee attack makes a lot of "Oh Fuck" situations.

4 hours ago, Job said:

I feel its fire attack should always have been a visible wave of flame, like the maulotaur's attack. This probably wasn't implemented and became a hitscan attack in order to avoid taxing the processors of that era. 

This. Replacing his attack with maulotaur's hammer ground smash/  flamewall attack will make him awesome.

4 minutes ago, Uni said:

I just find it quite silly and amusing when I'm "touching" a Mancubi, Arachnotron or even an Archvile and the only thing they do is keep running around.

When it comes to Mancubus, how would he perform a melee attack. I mean he is wearing arm-cannons and they are too bulky to hit u with. Same with Arachnotrons which is basically a brain attached to robotic legs. How would it hit u.

However I do admit that an Archvile should be able to melee u as he has flame hands to harm u.

They are well designed.  It's how they are used that pisses people off.

4 hours ago, Dark Pulse said:

Give it a slightly higher pain chance, have the flames do tick damage, keep the explosion the same, and dump the damn instantaneous target switching if you happen to hit it while it's attacking something else.

 

Technically makes it more dangerous if you can't get out of its line of sight, but also a bit more fun to fight. 

5 hours ago, Job said:

I feel its fire attack should always have been a visible wave of flame, like the maulotaur's attack. This probably wasn't implemented and became a hitscan attack in order to avoid taxing the processors of that era. 

So, basically like this guy:

This guy is obnoxiously difficult and not fun to fight at all.

Anyway, the only thing I would change is to remove the instant target switching. I'm sure we've all shot at a monster with the super shotgun, only to have a single pellet graze an infighting arch-vile as it's about to finish attacking. 3 nanoseconds later, your screen turns red and you die.

By raising the pain chance would be good.

2 hours ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

Archvile is perfect, just as God intended <3

Yeah :)

Hey, btw, I remember some very nice rework - archvile can teleport, vanish, and he throw leafs and some kind of wind blast - it was very nice and scary rework, but I don't remember its name or author name. Does anybody know this decorate/project/wad?

@Teder

Tornado Demon.zip

@Aquila Chrysaetosyes, that's him! Thanks!

AV is an iconic monster, I agree that he doesn't *need* changing, but I don't think there's anything wrong with people continuing to experiment with pushing mechanics in different directions. One thing I've wanted to try (wondering if this is possible in DeHackEd) is a Diabolist-like alt-vile that just has the LoS fire attack. The big difference would be, besides no resurrection mechanic, that the vile fire itself damages you, but doesn't charge up to a big explosion. I would also make the fire last for a few seconds after you break LoS, as if the player was really on fire (damage per tic would probably have to be fairly low to keep this from being too annoying). The idea would be to make it really force the player to take cover, but also allow for a healthy margin of error. In practice this might not be too different from a fast, higher-HP chaingunner, admittedly, but the hope would be that the slight persistence of the alt-vile fire would give this guy a niche of his own.

I would not change him :D

He's perfect the way he is and you should feel bad for wanting to change him. Also, I'm pretty sure it's possible to make Archviles be able to resurrect other Archviles through DeHacked, no? 

I want an Arch Vile and Revenant combo. The Arch-Revenant. He can also be resurrected by other Arch-Revenants... Maybe he even accidentally shoots a lost soul at you once in a while instead of a homing missile. Oh yeah.. That sounds nice and evil!

8 hours ago, Xaser said:

On the off chance the goal is to do the most evil thing possible, here's the ultimate tweak: let arch-viles resurrect other arch-viles.

You might as well go all the way and let it resurrect boss monsters as well.

4 hours ago, Uni said:

Give it a powerful melee attack. I honestly think that every enemy in Doom should have had some sort of a melee attack. I just find it quite silly and amusing when I'm "touching" a Mancubi, Arachnotron or even an Archvile and the only thing they do is keep running around.

 

Also something that quick with a melee attack makes a lot of "Oh Fuck" situations.

I agree. I've come across several maps with Archviles used in stupid short-range situations, like behind an exit door. You can just stand there and Shoot At It Until It Dies^TM while you have a big time window to take cover if it tries to attack you, after which you can immediately go back and block its movement again.

4 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

When it comes to Mancubus, how would he perform a melee attack. I mean he is wearing arm-cannons and they are too bulky to hit u with. Same with Arachnotrons which is basically a brain attached to robotic legs. How would it hit u.

The Mancubus could have a flamethrower attack like in D2016, and the Arachnotron could release a short-range plasma wave or something.