Plutonia

So as most of you have seen from my postings related to Final Doom, I hate it!  However, I been really getting into Plutonia as of late.  I still feel it's a badly designed IWAD, but it has grown on me.  And yeah, I finally played the Go 2 It map which was kinda underwhelming compared to the other crazy ass slaughter maps I've played. 

Well, explain yourself Maser! :) What do you feel is poorly designed, and why have you turned on it recently?

And something to consider about Go when compared to other 'crazy ass slaughter maps' you've played, it came out a while before those!

3 hours ago, Maser said:

And yeah, I finally played the Go 2 It map which was kinda underwhelming compared to the other crazy ass slaughter maps I've played. 

As a fellow connoisseur of all things slaughter, I humbly ask you to regale us with tales of your exploits.

Imagine thinking Go 2 it is a 'slaughter' map?

Can't really compare Go 2 It with other slaughter wads, though you could say it was a kind of slaughter before the time of slaughter came.

Imo Plutonia is actually the best IWAD, it has the best-looking levels and most engaging combat.

I'm not buying the slaughter-tough-talk from somebody who considers Doom2's icon of sin "luck based":
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1986219

Doubly so when said person has never...
...shown their face anywhere near a thread in which new slaughtermaps have been released to the public 
...submitted a demo at any point in time

...put together a writeup for any slaughter map, neither for the DWMC nor as a file review

Basically, keep it real, mmkay? And while we're at it, remind yourself for a moment that these "poorly designed" maps were the height of what people could do at the time with their very limited and unreliable "development kits".

7 minutes ago, Bob9001 said:

Imagine thinking Go 2 it is a 'slaughter' map?

G2I is rightfully regarded as one of the first slaughtermaps ever made.

Plutonia is a rad wad but it especially shines when you are aggressive and know the ways of the Doom 2 bestiary. I do a pistol start playthrough every year and the fun is always there, though I'm a bit in automatic mode as of late.

Also yes Go 2 It can be considered a slaughter map, if an easy one. I remember @WH-Wilou84 saying that trying to max it sub-10mn is a good starter if you want to ease yourself into the slaughter genre, and I agree.

7 hours ago, Maser said:

So as most of you have seen from my postings related to Final Doom, I hate it!

Ok.

What's the purpose of this thread?

11 minutes ago, Archi said:

Ok.

 

What's the purpose of this thread?

To express his opinion again and perhaps start a discussion on this topic, prob.

30 minutes ago, Archi said:

Ok.

 

What's the purpose of this thread?

Because I've shat on Final Doom so much and this is a way of coming to a realization that it's not as bad as I made it out to be.  I guess it's a coming of age type of thing.   Although right now "Hunted" is pissing me off because the fucking doors aren't cooperating with me! 

There's only a few of them and they have a clear walk line trigger, never far away. Pay attention to the sound to know which one does what.

I don't think it's poorly designed, quite the contrary. When I played Plutonia as a teenager, I realized for the first time how well-thought and strategic a Doom map can be. It's hard? Sure it is. But it's challenging due to the monster placement, which I think itwas extremely well made. Some people think it's cheap because of the amount of chaingunners or revenants, but I don't remember when I had to deal with them on an unfair situation. As someone who is not very skilled at Doom, I understand how Plutonia can be frustrating, but I don't think it's due to bad level design. 

8 minutes ago, Noiser said:

When I played Plutonia as a teenager, I realized for the first time how well-thought and strategic a Doom map can be. It's hard? Sure it is. But it's challenging due to the monster placement, which I think itwas extremely well made.

Yeah it gets to me when I read "hordes of monsters like in Plutonia", because the Casali brothers had mastered the science of making every monster count as far as 90's maps go. They get you thinking about the appropriate "space aware" moves instead of using brute force, with 5 to 6 monsters carefully placed in different directions and elevations.

11 hours ago, Maser said:

So as most of you have seen from my postings related to Final Doom, I hate it!

There will never be too much of the same postings huh?

I just remembered that i still haven't ever played final Doom. First times are always exciting. I will start Plutonia on UV right now.

6 hours ago, seed said:

Can't really compare Go 2 It with other slaughter wads, though you could say it was a kind of slaughter before the time of slaughter came.

 

Imo Plutonia is actually the best IWAD, it has the best-looking levels and most engaging combat.

Yes, I have to agree on this one. Plutonia can give you a proper experience if you know how to deal with the maps and what's involved on it. Just use your saves accordingly and you'll be pretty fine.

2 hours ago, Kira said:

There's only a few of them and they have a clear walk line trigger, never far away. Pay attention to the sound to know which one does what.

Best tip of the map that you can get and...choose the correct exit for the next map.

One more thing. For those who says that "it sucks ass" and "maps have shitty design and monsters are unfair fuckers" or something like that, invest your time and analyze your gameplay. Those things can be improved over you in time and you'll realize that Plutonia is not as bad as people think.

7 hours ago, seed said:

Can't really compare Go 2 It with other slaughter wads, though you could say it was a kind of slaughter before the time of slaughter came.

 

Imo Plutonia is actually the best IWAD, it has the best-looking levels and most engaging combat.

Couldn't put it better myself !

6 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

stuff

I don't even agree with him and I agree with your point that having a deeper experience and knowledge of wads sure helps to have a better perspective but I don't understand the need to get so defensive (this happens in general when discussing this particular type of maps) and coming only to say that you are going to disregard his opinions for some inane reasons when you can just ignore him. Then I can change your nonsensical criteria to be about non-slaughter maps and if you really want to follow them you shouldn't even listen to most of the users in this very forum.

8 hours ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I'm not buying the slaughter-tough-talk from somebody who considers Doom2's icon of sin "luck based":
https://www.doomworld.com/forum/post/1986219

Doubly so when said person has never...
...shown their face anywhere near a thread in which new slaughtermaps have been released to the public 
...submitted a demo at any point in time

...put together a writeup for any slaughter map, neither for the DWMC nor as a file review

I don't agree with Maser either but u don't need to be so harsh on him.

Personally I too consider Go2It as a not-so-hard level. Despite being a noob myself, I have beaten it on UV saveless with pistol start. I actually think it is among the easier levels of Plutonia because of how much resources are available.

I don't like Plutonia because:

In Map01, there's an Arch-vile behind that Chaingunner, which is very annoying and you don't have a lot of rockets;

In Map02, there's an invisible bridge and you can easily fall into the pit;

In Map03, those Milo's curves can bounce you back and they are very difficult to navigate;

In Map04, you're surrounded by a bunch of enemies at the beginning, which is totally not fair;

In Map05, there are too many hitscanners in the open area and you have no way to dodge it (Obviously, I can finish this map without taking any damage, and someone seems to hate it ;P);

In Map06, you have to duel a Cyberdemon in a very cramped space;

In Map07, you have to fight a bunch of Mancubi with limited dodge space and you have almost no place to hide;

In Map08, that Chaingunner trap is BS;

In Map09, that last room is BS;

In Map10, those Arch-viles behind the wall who can resurrect all those Chaingunners are totally not fair to the players;

In Map11, I feel like I'm play Wolf3D, without being able to open doors properly. This is my least favorite map in Plutonia;

In Map12, the level is hard;

In Map13, the Pain Elementals and Arch-viles in the last room are in such a bad place, and you can't deal with them reliably;

In Map14, this level is so forgettable;

In Map15, what the hell is this map! You have to go fast, and again, you can't kill those Chaingunners because there are so one backing them up in the wall;

In Map31, there are too many Cyberdemons;

In Map32, there are too many enemies;

In Map16, that rise-and-lower platform is so annoying;

In Map17, some of the nukage in this level is damaging, but some is not, what consistency;

In Map18, this is such a rip off of Doom 2 Map14;

In Map19, that hallway with a bunch Imps lowered and surrounding you killed me so many times;

In Map20, how am I supposed to fight those Barons? They keep teleporting;

In Map21, the opening of the map is unfair;

In Map22, this map is impossible, no pun intended;

In Map23, there are inescapable pits without damaging floor, how can I escape;

In Map24, that Cyberdemon has such an advantage point and I got killed every single time;

In Map25, you teleport and there are a bunch of Chaingunners behind you in the final section of the map;

In Map26, those crushers are brutal;

In Map27, there is an Arch-vile you can't kill in (G)ZDoom, and this rubbed my the wrong way because I can't get 100%;

In Map28, sewers, what do you expect? Every game has to have this;

In Map29, I can't even navigate the city I lived in. I get lost all the time in this level;

In Map30, it's luck based.

The post above me is all wrong and should be ashamed of failing its duty of being a good post. But I raise it to D+ for the effort.

5 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

 

I don't agree with Maser either but u don't need to be so harsh on him.

Obviously a troll post made to stir the pot.  I don't think this is the place to defend a troll making clear bait statements.

1 hour ago, Kira said:

The post above me is all wrong and should be ashamed of failing its duty of being a good post. But I raise it to D+ for the effort.

Not sure whether to blame my dying PS3 or just the crappy port I have, but map 6 seems to always require me to quit and restart the game because for some reason, the Cyberdemon goes invincible and the only way to fix that is to restart.  Not the end of the world or anything like that, but a little obnoxious when I think I'm doing clever dodging and strafing with my Plasma Rifle only to find out none of the hits were registering.  

1 hour ago, Kira said:

The post above me is all wrong and should be ashamed of failing its duty of being a good post. But I raise it to D+ for the effort.

The way you think that everything is wrong in my post means I got everything correctly in one sense.

8 minutes ago, Maser said:

 

Not sure whether to blame my dying PS3 or just the crappy port I have, but map 6 seems to always require me to quit and restart the game because for some reason, the Cyberdemon goes invincible and the only way to fix that is to restart.  Not the end of the world or anything like that, but a little obnoxious when I think I'm doing clever dodging and strafing with my Plasma Rifle only to find out none of the hits were registering.  

I think he's talking to me.

9 minutes ago, Maser said:

 

Not sure whether to blame my dying PS3 or just the crappy port I have, but map 6 seems to always require me to quit and restart the game because for some reason, the Cyberdemon goes invincible and the only way to fix that is to restart.  Not the end of the world or anything like that, but a little obnoxious when I think I'm doing clever dodging and strafing with my Plasma Rifle only to find out none of the hits were registering.  

Never heard of this happening on PC at least. Maybe your plasma balls touch nearby walls. It's a thing happening often with the Plasma Gun.

@GarrettChan Nah I don't think so.

Just now, Kira said:

 

@GarrettChan Nah I don't think so.

Then you have no sense of humor. BTW, feel free to disagree with me.

Just now, GarrettChan said:

Then you have no sense of humor. BTW, feel free to disagree with me.

Who is talking please... I was obviously messing with you.

I'm not dumb enough to think "In Map29, I can't even navigate the city I lived in" was serious. Come on. When you are trying to be humorous, don't assume that your public is dumb because it doesn't react according to your mental script.

My answer was lowkey funny, I'll give you that.

@KiraI apologize for that. English is not my native language, so it's possible for me not getting the idea. BTW, that statement is real in a sense, but the city I live in America is way easier to navigate than the city I lived in China.

No problems man, I know humor is hard to come across from culture to culture. Even worse when it's via internet.

Apologies accepted, as long as you appreciate Plutonia properly of course.

2 minutes ago, Kira said:

as long as you appreciate Plutonia properly of course.

I don't think someone who doesn't appreciate Plutonia would manage to Max Map01, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08 without taking damage. To be honest, Plutonia is definitely not hard compared to what we got today. 

I was joking again by the way :P

But yeah, I don't think difficulty is what makes Plutonia good nowadays. More that it makes the player proactive, and distillates what made classic Doom smart I guess? I'd put it closer to skillsaw's wads than modern hardcore wads in how I approach it now. Even though its spirit lives on through everything it inspired, up to said challenging wads.