The Modest Mapping Challenge (Old Thread)

I'm gonna go right head and point out a couple things that rub me the wrong way MASSIVELY.

-Project "lead" is a totally blank slate with a content of 1 forum post, and nothing besides that. Not even an example map has been provided, let alone a pre-made resource pack

-Running a "back to basics" project and then using UDMF to target GZDoom? You might wanna get your facts right wrt to what's "basics"

-Limiting mappers to 4 monster types only per map is the biggest nonsense I ever seen as a project rule, and I've seen "4800 Hell knights" which already went tits up

-No SSG but Doom2's roster?

-40 sectors only

-No deadline

-No mapslots to claim

-No episode structure

Basically, I don't think any experienced mapper worth their salt is going to join here, unless out of sheer, morbid curiosity I guess.

Hi NIH and thank you for the advice, changes are on the way! I have an example map but couldn't upload WAD files to DW but I'll find another way, the limiting to 4 monster types means that the mapper must pick 4 monsters (not total number) which would fit their map setting and pacing - it's up to them how they supply the player to deal with them w/o SSG. 40 sector limit means maps won't be too long (unless the mapper wants it to be) as I see most mappers are busy on bigger projects and having a smaller mapped project to work on might be more appealing. I wasn't going to set a deadline until I either had enough people or said people would be willing to have a deadline at all, as previously said, this isn't an intensive project and I don't want people to freak out over a deadline although I know sometimes it is needed to drive a project. Mapslots will be introduced with more mappers but I really wasn't too sure how many people would sign up so a 32 Mappack might seem a bit over zealous - I probably will add one though. We were just discussing on the discord and the format will be changed to Doom: Doom 2 format to avoid problems with scripting etc. Please do join the discord if you want to voice any other issues :) @Nine Inch Heels

11 minutes ago, Jark said:

the limiting to 4 monster types means that the mapper must pick 4 monsters (not total number) which would fit their map setting and pacing - it's up to them how they supply the player to deal with them w/o SSG. 40 sector limit means maps won't be too long (unless the mapper wants it to be) as I see most mappers are busy on bigger projects and having a smaller mapped project to work on might be more appealing.

The 4 monsters is exactly the problem. Even Doom 1 has more the 4 types of monsters. No one is going to understand the point of this limitation and frankly I don't either. A 40 sector limit is also aggravating on top of working within Vanilla limits. There's basically no room for spicing up geometry. Plus if we're using only Doom 1 textures, have only 4 monster types to choose and can't use the SSG what is even the point of mapping for Doom 2 at all? It should just be a Doom 1 project.

I don't necessarily see an issue with a 40 sector limit, we've had very popular 10 sector limit CPs. I also don't necessarily have an issue with only 4 monster types, seems like the kind of requirement for an ASS session no-one would object to. But both at once? Seems overly restrictive without clear purpose.

Overall the general premise does seem kind of peculiar. 

1 hour ago, Jark said:

I want to see talented mappers make classic maps for a change rather then using all the new flashy features of GZDoom or other modern editors

What parallel world do you live in where flashy GZDoom features are the norm? Most people don't use them, especially on this forum. 

Creating vanilla compatible CPs with strict limits isn't unusual: the 1K CP was a resounding success for example. But I think you should focus down on just very specific aspects. Is it just 4 monster types? Is it just 40 sectors? Is it no SSG? 

You definitely want to host some examples of your maps too to give people an idea of what to aim for, and reassure people this is going somewhere. Dropbox is fine for this, don't try to host them on DW itself (it's not a file repository).

Looks nice, but what is a bridge glitch? Are you meaning this? https://www.doomworld.com/tutorials/fx7.php

Is this project uses limit-removing format, right?

I don't know how to make a map with that little monster variation, but if I had to pick 4 monsters I'd choose revs, pe's, av's, and cybies. Careful what you wish for.

A silly thing that I was thinking (and absolutely not a mandatory concept), but with a name like the purist challenge, I tought about maps made using nothing else than the stock assets from the game IWAD (yeah, something like Doomworld Mega Project 2018 or the Deadly Standards Community Projects, but even more strict)...

This isn't so much "Purist Challenge" as it is "arbitrary limits for no good reason challenge."

40 sector limit? IWAD maps tend to be around the 150-250 sector mark, with some going into the 300s. That limit is far too small.

4 monsters? That's just ridiculous.

No bridge glitches? That's perfectly possible in vanilla, why not? Besides, invisible floors were used even in the Plutonia Experiment, the bridge "glitch" just involves moving that floor up and down.

And then there's this quote:

8 hours ago, Jark said:

The reason I'm making this challenge is that I want to see talented mappers make classic maps for a change rather then using all the new flashy features of GZDoom or other modern editors

Boom and vanilla mapping are going absolutely nowhere and, contrary to popular belief, ZDoom mapping is nowhere near as popular. I don't know why purists keep pushing this alarmist idea that traditional mapping is dying out and everything is "fancy GZDoom features" now but it's wrong and it's getting pretty annoying at this point. The vast majority of community projects are Boom or vanilla and ZDoom megawads are actually very rare.

1 hour ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

I don't know why purists keep pushing this alarmist idea that traditional mapping is dying out and everything is "fancy GZDoom features" now

I mean, it seems to me, the op really doesn't have much of a clue what map formats are:

10 hours ago, Jark said:

TPC aims to bring mappers back to the basics with Doom: Doom 2 format - to limit scripting etc.

When you get to read "to limit scripting etc" (and that wasn't even how the op started, it's been heavily edited since wrt rules and formats and was originally planned as UDMF) it's evident that there's a whole lot of "not having much of an idea of what's what" going on. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the supposedly fancy features the op wants to omit are simply standard source port features like brightmaps and such.

you guys are bullies

Jesus guys give the dude a break. Aside from the 40 sector and monster limit I'd love to see this wad happen. I'd probably even make a map or two for it since old school maps are totally my thing.

5 minutes ago, Count651 said:

Aside from the 40 sector and monster limit I'd love to see this wad happen. 

Aside from the 40 sector and monster limit, this wad happens all the time.  There are plenty of vanilla / limit-removing projects being released.

Lots of people in the Doom community have a funny idea of what purism entails.

17 hours ago, Jark said:

TPC aims to bring mappers back to the basics with Doom: Doom 2 format - to limit scripting etc.

Bro there are literally still a whole bunch of people who still map for vanilla, detail limits and all. I'd know, being one of them.

hi op, yeah a 40-sector limit project would be pretty cool
aim it at chocolate-doom for oldschool cred, maybe allow people to use either doom or doom 2 resources and release two sets at once or a compiled version for gzdoom folks... have the four monster-limit thing be an optional challenge and voila you have an accessible project!

its easy to get carried away with details but the more specific you get the less people'll be interested!

I don't see the need for such a pessimistic attitude towards the project like some of you are displaying, especially the repeat offenders. The limits that this challenge provides are very much possible to work with. 40 sectors can be done with some proper planning, and 4 monster types can also work when paired with a good layout that utilizes them properly. Give Jark a chance with the project.

7 hours ago, AD_79 said:

 

No it isn't. 10 Sectors exists and some decently cool maps resulted from that. Hell, 2 Sectors exists, though the success of that one is a lot more debatable. With sector merging in mind, 40 would actually get you a lot to work with.

 

 

No it isn't. 1 Monster exists. If you want a ridiculous concept, go look at that. Mapping with four monster types would still be somewhat comfortable, I'd imagine. Hell, three is probably the minimum one would need for a decently engaging map without resorting to gimmickry.

The difference is those two projects take one concept and stick with it. They're focused. This project just throws out a bunch of random limitations that have nothing to do with its premise of being a "purist challenge" or a "back to basics" project.

7 hours ago, AD_79 said:

 

No it isn't. 10 Sectors exists and some decently cool maps resulted from that. Hell, 2 Sectors exists, though the success of that one is a lot more debatable. With sector merging in mind, 40 would actually get you a lot to work with.

 

Correct, but "back to the basics" implies "no hacks". To make do with 40 sectors would necessitate hacks.

Why no hacks?

My suggestion for a "back to basics" mod would mean to make maps that could have been built with the original Doom editor. This editor had no concept of sectors, so anything involving degenerate sectors or split sectors would be out of the question.

So:

- map should have roughly the size of an IWAD map

- no visplane overflows, no drawseg overflows, no vissprite overflows, i.e. renders glitch-free with a non-limit-removing engine.

- no render glitch abuse. Vanilla did not do this - Plutonia doesn't count in this respect because it wasn't made with the original tools. The original tools used by id are fundamentally unable to do render hacks involving self-referencing sectors.

- monster count approximately in the same range of original levels.

- considering the Revenant an upper-tier enemy, not lower-tier like many more modern mapsets do. Back in the day it was considered a dangerous threat and used as such.

- must be playable and saveable with Doom.exe.

If we could agree on these limitations THEN we'd be talking genuine "back to the basics"!

Remove the 40-sector and 4-monster limits and I'll consider joining in.

21 hours ago, Fonze said:

I don't know how to make a map with that little monster variation, but if I had to pick 4 monsters I'd choose revs, pe's, av's, and cybies. Careful what you wish for.

I would like to play that! 8D

Heh me too ;D

What about... 50 sectors? And 50 monsters per map? You could call it 50/50. 

16 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

 

Correct, but "back to the basics" implies "no hacks".

 

Sector merging is a hack?

16 hours ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

The difference is those two projects take one concept and stick with it. They're focused. This project just throws out a bunch of random limitations that have nothing to do with its premise of being a "purist challenge" or a "back to basics" project.

I don't disagree with this, you know! As stated before, the author is inexperienced and doesn't seem to know what they truly want, and are more or less throwing ideas at the wall. I do think the combination of "40 sectors" and "4 monster types" has potential, however, so if that were simply the focus then perhaps there wouldn't be this amount of dissent. Advertising it as a "purist" project does strike me as weird, yes, though that seems to have been edited.

16 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

Correct, but "back to the basics" implies "no hacks". To make do with 40 sectors would necessitate hacks.

Why no hacks?

My suggestion for a "back to basics" mod would mean to make maps that could have been built with the original Doom editor. This editor had no concept of sectors, so anything involving degenerate sectors or split sectors would be out of the question.

I'm going to take this bait and ask you to stop right there. Let me get this straight: You consider sector merging to be a "hack". Please tell me you're joking, Graf? Not only is sector merging a very useful tool for mappers regardless of what format they're mapping for (it reduces clutter, also if not for it we'd all still be using sound tunnels), but you're asking that one of the primary limitations here be severely crippled in its usefulness. When you consider the potential of "10 Sectors x4", that seems like a really stupid thing to do, doesn't it? No one on Doomworld is going to adhere to the restrictions of DoomEd, because there's simply no point in that. Hell, the TWID sets, which are meant to replicate the original styles as closely as they possibly could, have merged sectors all over the place. No one cares about being that authentic to the original restrictions.

Let's quickly run through your suggestions:

15 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

- map should have roughly the size of an IWAD map

- no visplane overflows, no drawseg overflows, no vissprite overflows, i.e. renders glitch-free with a non-limit-removing engine.

- monster count approximately in the same range of original levels.

These limitations I can get behind, more or less. IWAD-esque design is perfectly cool to go for, and it's part of why D2TWID is one of my favourite sets! So far, so good. I do think though, with a 40 sector limit on top of this, that some flexibility should be allowed in terms of what people are able to make size-wise. Your suggestions start to lose me when we get to the following, however:

15 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

- no render glitch abuse. Vanilla did not do this - Plutonia doesn't count in this respect because it wasn't made with the original tools. The original tools used by id are fundamentally unable to do render hacks involving self-referencing sectors.

And? Again, no one nowadays cares about sticking to the limitations of "the original tools". They care about what vanilla nowadays lets them accomplish. These types of bridges are possible in vanilla, this is a known fact, so what exactly is the point in saying "make some vanilla maps, buuut you're not allowed to do everything it's capable of"? These types of "hacks" as you enjoy calling them should be permitted, plain and simple. I don't see them being all that useful in the context of 40 sectors or vanilla though, seeing how monsters can't cross them.

16 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

- considering the Revenant an upper-tier enemy, not lower-tier like many more modern mapsets do. Back in the day it was considered a dangerous threat and used as such.

Interesting that you would point this out specifically. Don't you play with a mod that disables homing on revenant missiles, Graf? Using this logic, we could also consider lone barons to be threatening monsters that should be treated with caution. 

16 hours ago, Graf Zahl said:

- must be playable and saveable with Doom.exe.

Not only do your points about keeping map size and monster count in line with the IWADs render this bit useless, but very few these days actually care about this. This is why BTSX is able to have maps that obliterate the savegame limit: it's simply a worthless limit that doesn't truly affect a map's playability in the original exe, and serves to damage what you can do with the format. If you're one of the few people still playing in the original exe, then I can't see you caring much about this limit in the first place.

Vanilla as we know it nowadays is different from how it was in 1993/94. We know more about it and how to get the most out of it, our design methods have changed, and there is simply no real need to restrict ourselves like how you describe. No sector merging? In a project with limited sectors? You understand what that could very well end up like, right? Again, 10 Sectors allowed merging for a reason: to get the absolute most out of the limitation, that's kind of the point of a limitation. The limit shouldn't then be restricted further simply because sector merging wasn't a thing the original Doom editors did. Perhaps you simply saw the word "purist" and wanted to poke some fun, I don't know.

12 hours ago, AD_79 said:

I do think the combination of "40 sectors" and "4 monster types" has potential, however, so if that were simply the focus then perhaps there wouldn't be this amount of dissent.

I think this is what it boils down to. Projects goals should be simple to understand without too many arbitrary rules so people aren't confused. So what OP should try to do is pick a focus and stick to that. 40 sectors with 4 monster types in Vanilla seems like a solid focus. But again OP needs to decide what the overall goal is. 

I'll be looking more into this project.

I agree with @Super Mighty G about the project needing more focus, but I'm willing to see where it goes. I actually think the 4-monster limit is an interesting idea.

Perhaps a good way to implement it would be to make a list of specific monsters for each map slot, so that it is remains varied.

I'd like to claim Map 11.

I'm interested to see what comes out of this project.

Map13 is complete. You can download it now on the discord Submissions channel.