What is your most hated demon in Doom?

On 7/2/2019 at 1:24 PM, Kyoh1 said:

Do you have some examples in mind?

One example is map24 of Icarus: Alien Vanguard

On 6/28/2019 at 3:18 PM, Maes said:

IIRC there's about 1/64 chance that a single shotgun blast will deal 100 damage, so one can always hope ;-)

 

Here's an old post I made on the subject.

I have experienced this.

On 6/28/2019 at 10:14 AM, Maes said:

 

I once took the full brunt of a shotgun sergeant's hot, manly lead (-45HP) and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I have not experienced this.

On 6/28/2019 at 5:53 PM, R1ck said:

don't really hate them, accept when one of them came to me from behind.

What other way is there?

9 hours ago, galileo31dos01 said:

 

I have not experienced this.

Don't knock it 'til you rock it

I don't "hate" any of the Doom/2 monsters, but I like the Icon of Sin less than anything else, because I dislike endless, inexhaustible waves of enemies (but at least you can end the endless stream of enemies by actually killing the big wall texture). Same reason I'm less inclined to enjoy the sight of a Pain Elemental, even though I do find the idea of a Caco variant that launches lost souls to be very creative.

Back in the day, I used to find the Lost Soul to be a very cleverly designed enemy; an enemy that used itself as an attack projectile. Very novel idea back then. Kinda satisfying to let it charge and then halt it in its tracks with a well placed shotgun blast before it could get you.

... Then Doom 2 introduced Pain Elementals and large swarms of the little buggers and not even the introduction of the Holy Boomstick could prevent them from being slightly annoying in that case.

Lost Souls are really only annoying if there are too many of them, or if the level design allows them to sneak up on you while you're preoccupied with other enemies, but if clearly visible and the scenario allows you ample opportunity to dodge them, while engaging other enemies, they can be fun.

Revenants are easy-peasy; coming off of about a week of playing Quake 1 maps with Vores will make you laugh as you easily lure Revenant missiles into pillars, walls and other pieces of map geometry without too much effort. Only annoying if there's no cover of any description or if overused.

Hitscanners I'm usually not too bothered with, unless starved for health items or deprived entirely of cover. The fact that they are really squishy tends to make up for their relative cheapness and they do encourage you to change your game plan, by having you use cover. They're only annoying if they can hit you from locations where you can't easily dispatch them, or if used in a way where you're too preoccupied with a much bigger threat (say, an Archvile).

The bottom line is that I don't dislike any one monster (not even Pain elementals), merely the way that some map makers use/misuse some of them.

On 7/9/2019 at 10:03 AM, The Strife Commando said:

The problem with Doom's monsters in general are the amount of Imp clones available.

There's the imp, Hell Knight, and Baron. You could count the Cacodemon but I think the flying ability sets it apart enough as its own role.

I think this is more of a Doom 1 problem specifically, since Doom 2's monster lineup is very diverse IMO.

I gotta admit, Pain Elementals lost all thrill for me back when I learned you can just stand in their face and SSG them and they can't hurt you. If there's other monsters around then yeah, it's a bit more difficult, but you can still use the PE as a shield and circle around it. The best use of them IMO is from afar where they have plenty of opportunity to fire Lost Souls at you. But I don't think this really happens in the original levels.

14 hours ago, TheMightyHeracross said:

 

There's the imp, Hell Knight, and Baron. You could count the Cacodemon but I think the flying ability sets it apart enough as its own role.

 

I think this is more of a Doom 1 problem specifically, since Doom 2's monster lineup is very diverse IMO.

Forgot about the Revenant...a very common description for it is "an improved imp". So much, in fact, that it ends up being used in imp-like numbers. The original Doom doesn't have much beyond the actual Imp and the Baron, as far as fireball-throwing, melee-capable, non-flying monsters are concerned.

Doom 2 also has fireball spammers w/o melee (manc & arachnotron).

1 hour ago, Maes said:

 

Forgot about the Revenant...a very common description for it is "an improved imp". So much, in fact, that it ends up being used in imp-like numbers.

The Revenant is not an imp-like monster, though, because it has a high damage homing missile. Using such a monster in packs will dramatically alter how the game plays (and is my biggest gripe with modern mods.)

Revenant and macubus are awesome.  They were pretty well ruined in DOOM3 however.

The revenant is fast and has powerful but avoidable attacks.  Only the Archvile is similar in speed (and technically is the same base character, just prior to death).

The macubus is pitifully slow but so big and powerful.  The idea of Sloth is well represented and having -fast revs and -slow mancs plays out really well.

at 100/100, the revenant is pretty equal to the player.  They remind me of the Elite and Hunter from Halo a lot, actually.  And the rather flawless rendition from HL2, the Synth Hunter.  I feel like a lot of games lack an equivalent enemy to the player in HP, speed, and attack.  The revenant is the main character of DOOM imo.

I think PE encounters should be treated more like AV encounters and they will be generally more fun.  That LOS right?

I do not hate them, it's because they are badly used leaving the levels artificially difficult, like in Plutonia and TNT, for every Cacodemon that you kills, 2 Arch-Villes, 4 Pain Elementals, 8 Chaingunners will appear  

On 7/12/2019 at 11:15 PM, Graf Zahl said:

 

The Revenant is not an imp-like monster, though, because it has a high damage homing missile. Using such a monster in packs will dramatically alter how the game plays (and is my biggest gripe with modern mods.)

 

I second this. Nothing makes me want to stop playing a WAD more than Revenant spamming.

Revs aren't imp clones. They have the priority to melee up close and only shoot after getting damaged. Their fists also don't shoot on a whiff. Both big exploitable weaknesses even if they come in swarms. 

Some enemies are definitely easier to use badly than others. As has already been stated, the Baron of Hell can easily be a boring fight due to its high health and simplistic behaviour.

I do think that, if I were going to rebalance Doom II, I'd put a much lower ceiling on Revenant rocket damage (those 80hp hits are so annoying) and drop Lost Soul health a bit, so that a single shotgun blast can take them out. Otherwise I'm reasonably content with how the roster fills out. Obviously Arch-Viles and Pain Elementals still hold high potential for inducing frustration, but that's more down to the mapper.

Revs already don't deal 80 damage unless you are running around without armor. Which is almost never the case in maps with lots of revs.

80 damage out of a notional 133 health is still a lot. Hell, even 80 damage out of the maximum of 400 is still a full fifth. In hordes, or places with tight manoeuvrability, you can't take many Revenant rockets before it's a major issue.

And imp/baron fireballs don't generally bunch up in one massive super-comet of death that keeps following you around. Fun when it's exploitable vs other monsters, not so much when you cannot avoid it, and DEFINITIVELY not fun in coop when you run head-on on a "comet" intended for another player.

11 hours ago, Ruisu said:

I do not hate them, it's because they are badly used leaving the levels artificially difficult, like in Plutonia and TNT, for every Cacodemon that you kills, 2 Arch-Villes, 4 Pain Elementals, 8 Chaingunners will appear  

This motherfucker this

I don't like lost souls, but I love to use them in my maps in swarms (hype for some my maps in incoming CzechBox project). Maybe they should be little bit less durable. BTW I think PRBoom doesn't even count lost souls as monsters. :)

The Lost Soul was actually a sick practical joke played by John Romero to make you his bitch, and really make you feel like you were in hell. /s

I still wonder why this thread is about lost souls even the op post when they are a doom 1 monster?

Doom/2 implies both the original game and the sequel.

9 hours ago, Pegg said:

Revs already don't deal 80 damage unless you are running around without armor. Which is almost never the case in maps with lots of revs.

The way I see armor is just as extra health with some extra rules, a 80 dmg rev ball still does 80 dmg, I agree dmg in doom is too random, but this is also a blessing cause for every 80 dmg rocket there is a 10 dmg one, just that players usually only notice the high ones.

20 hours ago, Ruisu said:

They are badly used leaving the levels artificially difficult.

The way I see this term being used in this forum usually means "this wad is hard for me in a way I dont like", which would be a valid opinion, but it is thrown in a derogatory way as if every wad had to catter specifically to them that makes me stop taking this person seriously.

About the topic, all doom2 monsters are fine for me and they were much needed additions to the bestiary, they have clear weaknesses, if anything the flying monsters can be annoying if they fly far away in a map but that's mostly a fault of doom physics and most times youc can play around it. And lost souls not counting as a monster is also annoying cause if you are maxing a map it feels bad if you have to use time to kill them.

20 hours ago, Ruisu said:

artificially difficult, like in Plutonia and TNT

I'm curious in what situation in IWADs you'll treat something good difficult instead of artificially difficult?

Alright... Should I get myself some popcorn now? I'm just glad I didn't open that can of worms this time :P

These questions need clarification (please excuse the absolute statements below...they're faster to type):

• No one hates a single (any type of) monster, if they have sufficient cover, space, ammo, armor, and health.
• No one hates even a few instances of a particular monster under the same conditions.
• On the other end of the spectrum, most people would hate an inescapable pit of 50 shotgunners, with 15% health and a pistol.

So the real question is "Why do people hate poorly designed, or unfair battles?" And the answers to this question are self-explanatory.

4 hours ago, kb1 said:

• On the other end of the spectrum, most people would hate an inescapable pit of 50 shotgunners, with 15% health and a pistol.

So the real question is "Why do people hate poorly designed, or unfair battles?" And the answers to this question are self-explanatory.

 

Ha, I got you there. The obvious answer to the above is that "1337 pr0 fux0r h4x0r pl4y4z never find themselves in such situations, because, well, they are 1337 pr0 fux0r h4x0r pl4y4z, that's why." and "This only happens to noobs/scrubs". There ya go :-p

On 6/28/2019 at 3:10 PM, pcorf said:

Shotgun guys ...... f******!!!!

If that's really your most hated enemy type, then that puts "Shotgun Blues" in a whole new light. Anyway, beside setups that involve Chaingunners with Evilution-like placements, I have no issues with the Doom 2 roster.

A good metric for "monster hatred" is the Damage:Health ratio for various monsters. For example, for imps it would be 24:60, which is the highest for a classic projectile + melee monster, but for shotgun guys it would be 45:30, making it the only monster that can deal more damage than its own health in a single shot.

For Revs it would be 80:300, but in practice those guys can and often do deal more damage than their own health before going down. If a Rev lands 4 hits at 80 damage, it already dealt more than its own health. A classic example of this is a HK vs Rev infight. Think a one-on-one between those two monsters is a no-brainer? Will the HK's higher health always save it from death vs a more damaging and more accurate opponent (PROTIP: the Rev will miss less, esp. at a distance)?

For chaingunners, it's a bit more complicated, as their per-shot damage isn't any higher than that of a zombieman (15 HP), so the ratio would be 15:70. However, in practice they will never land just a single shot, and most often they will be at least as damaging as a shotgunner at point blank, if not more. Then, the ratio can skyrocket.

1 hour ago, Maes said:

 

Ha, I got you there. The obvious answer to the above is that "1337 pr0 fux0r h4x0r pl4y4z never find themselves in such situations, because, well, they are 1337 pr0 fux0r h4x0r pl4y4z, that's why." and "This only happens to noobs/scrubs". There ya go :-p

Yeah, but they don't count cause they don't complain :)

2 minutes ago, kb1 said:

 

Yeah, but they don't count cause they don't complain :)

Exactly. Only scrubs/noobs complain, dontchaknow?