Infraworld - The Hatehammer

This looks amazing and will be played when home from work tonight!

That looks incredibly gorgeous indeed! I have to check this out.

I generally hate fine detailing in Doom, but sanctified faeces this makes it work. Incredible shots, particularly the 4th, 6th and last.  Hard to believe it's Boom compatible. Downloaded to my to-play folder.

These middle textures are very interesting.

Looks marvelous, especially that last screenshot. Great work!

Don't forget to include a txt document in your zip describing your project. Also, the 4 square demon head on the floor by the hammer... I think the corner is the wrong flat.

I was surprised that I forgot to put the txt-info in the archive ... Well, now everything is in place.
I recommend to re-download map, since I made quite a many minor edits. Some critical, most no, but nonetheless.

Wow, complete wad for 2,5 - 3 hours of non-stop. 
I will say right away, I have someone to learn me in the creation of maps! :D 

While I was playing nostalgically for some reason, I remembered metroid for the GameBoy Advance and other metroidvania's.
Liked the skull picking (this is the whole purpose of the wad ... almost)
Also found bugs, sometimes even funny :)
 

Timecode: 

1. - 18:22 - Pinky in the air
2. - 19:52 - tall arch-vile or low wall ? )) 
3. - 45:22 - Many invisible walls
4. - 58:52 - Passable fence
5. - 1:13:58 - Invisible wall
6. - 1:23:30 - Anomaly
7. - 1:39:44 - 1:40:57 - Unable to go to the next section
1:43:56 - To do this, I had to first go not to the section where I was at the time of timing, but behind the "fence" to press the button to open (I don't remember this timing)
8. 1:46:07 - No textures on the sides
9. 1:50:17 - No textures
10. - 1:56:25 - 2:00:22 - Infinite skulls
+ 2:16:16 - another yellow skull when everything is activated
11. - 2:33:55 - what? 
12. - 2:34:12 - teleport to another section
Some triggers didn't work: 2:36:30, 2:40:30, 2:41:05, 2:44:42 
After find first trigger - 2:41:41 
and second - 2:48:15 
13. - 2:45:03 - Invisible wall
14. - 2:47:40 - Stuck
Then I found trigger that opens the wall where I got stuck - 2:48:15 
15. - 2:51:00 - Imp on candelabrum
16. - 2:59:00 - Noticeable :P

Ok. Map is updated, but not tested fully. Same link.

I'm want to notice again that most of visual glitches visible only in GL-renders and Softpoly. You get best picture in software :)

Out of curiosity how long does this map go for?

56 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

Out of curiosity how long does this map go for?

Quote

complete wad for 2,5 - 3 hours of non-stop. 

this map is amazing. the visual landscape you've made here is really incredible - you're my new mapping hero haha. one of the things I find hardest about mapping is being able to create new, novel areas and shapes with visual variety that still stays within a larger theme, and you are very clearly a master at that. completely in awe of your texture work and craftsmanship.

^{ps I recently started playing your Eviternity map and it's equally amazing and will be my go-to reference for OTEX inspiration from now until the end of time}

@Tango You can't even imagine how important your words are to me. Thank you so much!!

I’m still a bit far from the “hero” of mapping, but I’ll definitely continue to invest my time in this hobby :3

To be honest, the resulting style does not reflect the original ideas. Almost every location was born from dozens of compromises and generally does not resemble what it was supposed to be originally. I honestly felt that the players would find the map visuals as chaotic, especially with regard to the rock massifs, but for the time being I receive feedback with the opposite opinion and this is very pleasing.

In addition, it is nice to know that someone passed my map to the end, and did not skip it, because he got lost ... :D

This is a true masterpiece. Great composition of nature and built environments. Nice midtexture details. That big thig at the bfg area was awesome. I don't even have the skills to do that kind of things. Texturing is done greatly. Impressive voodoo doll effects. Difficulty was quite right for me on HMP. There wasn't too much or too little monsters. Balancing was good in difficulty and in ammo+health. To get all this so well is very very difficult task and you did it perfectly. Didn't find too much of the secrets. Nice to see there would have been many to find! Only thing to complain is that I wandered some time to find places where I wasn't been. But that is minor considering how huge the level is. Thank you for the map! It must have been a massive effort.

I'm getting Quake vibes and I like it.

How do you add linedefs over another so that they don't divide each other? Like activation trigger and those midtex things?

11 minutes ago, Jaska said:

How do you add linedefs over another so that they don't divide each other? Like activation trigger and those midtex things?

If the vertices will be in different places: draw it and then drag it where you want it. 

If the vertices will be overlapping: turn 'Merge Geometry' off and then do the above. 

@Jaska

Generally, due to the fact that there was a break of more than 2 months in the development, I still cannot remember the location of all the secrets without editor help. Only having started the gameplay formation, I strongly doubted the correct balance of most fights. I wanted to change them significantly, but it all messed up. In the end, I decided not to bother much and did a lot of things on my own. But, apparently, did not lose. Although, I expected a lot of criticism about the balance ...

From the very beginning until the last day, I was full of doubts about everything ... I made a map in a hellish style, in which I had hardly ever worked. At the same time, I wasn't wanted it to look stereotyped. Plus nonlinearity. It was difficult to come up around what will be built player motivation to explore the map. And yes, at times my enthusiasm faded away completely.

At the given moment, judging by the reviews that I get, time is not wasted. Making big maps is not so much fun. But, nevertheless, I hope this will encourage other mappers to create massive maps.

To create a line that freely crosses the other, without joints, you need to press CTRL while dragging any of its vertices (in DB2 or GZDB). It is important to remember that such a line should preferably belong to the sector (have a sector index) with the same height as the sectors it crosses. If you do not comply with this, then when moving slowly along such a line, player may suddenly fall through sector, without being able to leave it. Or vice versa, stop against the "invisible wall". It is important, when working in GZDB, to translate geometry blending mode ... (or how to correctly call it?) to "Merge dragged vertictes only". If any other modes is enabled, after creating a new geometry, vertices will be automatically appears at the intersection of the lines. This is EXTREMELY not a pleasant experience. Do not repeat...

rdwpa said everything correctly.

Oh boy! This was a journey. For starters, here are my end game stats (played on Ultra-Violence) -

I’d been meaning to play this since you posted, and finally found the right time. I normally don’t enjoy long-haul maps, but there was something very special about this one.

I’ll be brutally honest, I distinctly remember the map you made for Eviternity (MAP19: Dehydration), but for all the wrong reasons, which pains me to say. Taken in pieces, there is a long list of things that I really loved about Dehydration, but the problem I had with it as a whole, was feeling like I spent nearly 2 hours slogging down a linear path, facing the same repeating fights over and over. I felt bad because, despite having strong admiration for the map, at a certain point I just couldn’t wait to finish it.

Hatehammer was a completely different experience for me. I knew some time had passed, but I was genuinely blown away to discover 2 hours had gone by – it didn’t feel like it.

The most incredible aspect of this map for me was just the sense of being in this other place entirely – this living, breathing, demonic city, with creatures crawling in every nook and cranny – and here I was invading it; learning its rules, discovering its secrets, and wading deeper into a truly hellish and unknown territory. This was where the non-linearity / exploration aspect really shone brightest for me.

The entire process of collecting the 6 skull keys was a very rewarding and engaging experience. First of all, the map itself just looks gorgeous and diabolical. The room where I could take the keys and place them on their respective pedestals was an absolute blessing of an idea, in as far as helping me keep track of my progress, as well as being brilliantly executed. There was a lot of fun variation to the types of fights, and the addition of multiple Cyberdemon encounters felt extremely effective in changing up the tempo at all the right times. I noticed you said that you had strong doubts regarding the balance of most fights: personally, I loved the balance. There was a very clear progression in difficulty (with great pacing in the introduction of the various monsters), but most importantly, a distinct ebb and flow between low-tension, satisfying areas, and high-tension traps / arenas.

The general feel of the map definitely changed after I found the 6 keys – it seemed to transition back into a more linear, conventional experience (it was still fun, don’t get me wrong), but it certainly begged the question in my mind, “would it be possible to construct a finale for a map like this, that stayed true to the wonderful sense of exploration and non-linearity?” The final stretch just didn’t seem to have the same degree of... gravitas... which you had so expertly crafted and built up to that point. Again, that’s not to say that this map wasn’t a thoroughly enjoyable ride right to the exit, just some food for thought.

Health and ammo felt quite balanced, and I especially liked the way you used the former. You had a system of drip-feeding small portions of health consistently throughout, which lent itself very well to the gameplay. I only found 10 of the secrets (I’m generally pretty rubbish at finding secrets), but I loved your use of sound cues to drop hints (I think that was my biggest source of finding secrets).

=============================================

If this was an “experiment” of sorts in non-linearity / exploration, you nailed it 100% in my books, and I’m giddy at the thought of what else you can do with the concept. The technicality and design of this map was really spectacular, and I look forward to playing through it again.

There were only two things I found which I felt obligated to point out:

@RonnieJamesDiner Thanks for the attention and such a warm review! Your words change a lot in my view of this work and give a certain confidence that I finally learned to make good gameplay. Of course, this is a matter of taste, but still. In some way, the incoming feedback (at the moment), plus my inability to implement the conceived ideas in all details and the spontaneity of most of the decisions in the design create the feeling that most aspects that players find positive have became such by chance, outside the scope of the original idea. This is a contradictory feeling. I am sure that I will be able to draw some lessons from this in order to repeat these sensations of the “living world” and immersion into it. Hope I can.

As for the keys, I doubted to the last. Earlier, I had already created such mechanic in the "Flooded Temple" map for Texture Extravaganza. But that map was generally controversial because of the switchhunting. Now, thanks to you, I know for sure that I not made a mistake with this idea. On the other hand, it will be difficult to come up with a new motivating mechanics for research, so as not to repeat. Although ... no, there is something else... :3

Near end of map developing, I ran out of ideas and the process of creating locations again began to resemble a loop ... I'm just never treated the linearity of the maps as something negative. When I was drawing a preliminary plan for Dehydration, I had in my head the images of many very first custom maps for HL2 from RTSL, in which I played a lot for 30, 40 or more minutes, distracting from development. They have a very "own" atmosphere ... for those who have HL2 one of the first games on the PC in general. Probably their creators did not think about nonlinearity either ... Dehydration is imbued with the spirit of such maps (IMHO) ... And also OTEX, a very powerful expressive tool. When I became acquainted with him, I felt like a child in a giant toy store, who wants to try everything ... and map began to grow uncontrollably over boundaries of finished plan.

However, you raise a very proper question.

P.S. You did not miss any routes. This is my fail, which so far no one has noticed. All bugs you mention will be fixed soon.

5 hours ago, StormCatcher.77 said:

And also OTEX, a very powerful expressive tool. When I became acquainted with him, I felt like a child in a giant toy store, who wants to try everything ... and map began to grow uncontrollably over boundaries of finished plan.

This I can completely understand. I downloaded OTEX to look through the library of textures, and I felt the same way! That texture set almost takes your breath away by its sheer scope and quality. And that's just it, I thought Dehydration looked fantastic, and it had great atmosphere and personality. It's worth noting as well that a lot of the combat in it felt very unique and interesting... but the longer it went on, the more predictable it became, which ultimately overwhelmed any other sensation for me. I do intend to play through Eviternity again, so I'll be looking forward to trying Dehydration again, and keeping the HL2 inspiration in mind when I do (I absolutely love the HL series, though I never explored the custom modding/mapping scene very much).

5 hours ago, StormCatcher.77 said:

In some way, the incoming feedback (at the moment), plus my inability to implement the conceived ideas in all details and the spontaneity of most of the decisions in the design create the feeling that most aspects that players find positive have became such by chance, outside the scope of the original idea.

This is a really interesting note. Perhaps spontaneity and "intuition" are more effective than a structured outline, to a degree? I can imagine that a map like Hatehammer requires ridiculous amounts of forethought and planning to even begin to approach, so, I'll certainly be curious to see what lessons and inspirations you draw from this experience for your future maps. I hope you stay confident and excited in your approach, regardless. You deliver very powerful stuff, and I think you have a lot to be proud of! 

On 7/13/2019 at 6:58 AM, FoxPlays said:

Wow, complete wad for 2,5 - 3 hours of non-stop.
7. - 1:39:44 - 1:40:57 - Unable to go to the next section
 

 

 

Ugh, I had the same problem as you. 20 minutes reviewing every wall, in the end I'm going to have to noclip as you did.

edit: downloaded the wad again, in case I didn't have the last version. Now lots of times the beginning of the level (when the yellow keys disappear and you are launched away) doesn't work, the part that moves the player seems a bit broken.

Great to see this complete, Stormcatcher! I look forward to giving the final product a playthrough.

So, the new small update is ready.
1. Now the player can't get stuck in the starting location (I hope)
2. When re-teleporting to the area with the red key, player can return back.
3. Some minor changes.

For a very long time I could not understand how the players manage to get stuck in the starting location. What I just didn't do ... Thanks to @Chaingunner for clarifying everything. I hope now no one else will face with this.

Link updated.

Fantastic map! One of my favorites of yours without a doubt.

There are some things displayed here that I've never seen before in a Boom wad, questioning how the hell is this even possible outside GZDoom.

The problem is I couldn't find the last 4 secrets and I've been searching for about 30 minutes, haha. Might try to 100% this some time.

Spare yourself two hours to play this masterpiece, you won't regret it.

Nominated for Caco + put up a shouthout tweet on my Twitter.

Keep 'em coming! Always a fan of your stuff. :)

Ok. I'm done a new small update:
- Fixed non-working (or breaking under certain circumstances) teleporters with enemies.
- The player after selecting the red key now teleports where necessary (I hope).
- Also found several texture issues.
- A bunch of minor edits.

Link was updated.

Thanks for @skepticist for attention!

Amazing map! You dealt with the non-linearity in a very good way, considering for such a huge map it's difficult to keep it all intact. Playtesting must've been a pain, but you clearly had the balance right, even if you didn't think that at first. Instinct goes a long way! 

But I have to ask, how on earth were you able to make it physically work, being so big? It has almost 80000 sidedefs, and while I've been working on my own project that's roughly 62000, every time I get closer to 64k, everything seems to break down when I test it. Which nodebuilder did you use, and how did you make it so that it still works? I'm still learning about the physical limits of a map and how they affect gameplay, so I'm really curious about this. Even the BLOCKMAP is ginormous!

@Aurelius Thank you for your attention to my work!

Speaking about the volume of map, I can’t say that I have ever encountered fatal crashes. Bearing in mind the map for Boom. I remember when I was making base geometry of Hatehammer, approximately in the middle of development I was faced with the fact that after compiling huge sections of the map during testing player lost collision (he could pass through walls). Then I replaced the standard nodebuilder (I don’t remember which one) with DeepBSP ... True, when working with the Eviternity map, it began to make the "invisible walls", so I switched to ZDBSP - Normal (no reject). Since then I have not changed it. And yes, I use GZDoom Builer (Bugfix) for all maps.

By the way, I have a “prematurely abandoned” GZDoom map, divided into three parts. One 42,000 lines, the second 66,000 and the last 15,000. Initially, it was supposed to be one looo(ooooooo)ng and linear map for 1-2 hours, but when trying to merge parts together GZDB is freezes to forever ... For this reason, I abandoned this map from 2016.
 

And I wish you success with your project! Looking forward for it. Glory to the giant maps! :D

@StormCatcher.77 You're very welcome! I can only stare in a mixture of envy and awe at the amount of creative genius it takes to make this kind of a map in such a (relatively) short period of time.

I've been using DeepBSP myself, which has worked for me below 62,000 - 63,000 sidedefs, but every time I go above those limits I often lose collision, and sometimes whole chunks of the map refuse to render, creating these huge black voids. I haven't tried ZDBSP, but I had the impression that it was not supported by all source ports - in this case I mean ports like Crispy for limit-removing or PrBoom+ and Eternity for Boom-compatible maps? I can be mistaken though. I've also read about ZokumBSP and it's advanced ability to compress maps, but currently haven't tested it in any form.

30 minutes ago, StormCatcher.77 said:

By the way, I have a “prematurely abandoned” GZDoom map, divided into three parts. One 42,000 lines, the second 66,000 and the last 15,000. Initially, it was supposed to be one looo(ooooooo)ng and linear map for 1-2 hours, but when trying to merge parts together GZDB is freezes to forever ... For this reason, I abandoned this map from 2016.

I can only imagine how frustrating that can be. I was lucky enough that I read about the mapping limits before my map reached "critical mass", but it was close. I had to do a lot of clever optimization to make things work, manually reducing sidedef counts in the thousands.

30 minutes ago, StormCatcher.77 said:

And I wish you success with your project! Looking forward for it. Glory to the giant maps! :D

Thank you kindly! I was skeptical throughout the development, sharing a lot of the concerns and doubts you explained above about. Once I finished a working build and gave it to a playtester, though, he ended up giving me a really positive and informative review of the current build that it gave me the energy to keep working. I'm probably not going to work on anything this big in a while, but I have to say that maps such as this and Elend's Hurt are the types of maps that keep flabbergasting me at the sheer skill, dedication and fortitude this community has within it.