The Super Shotgun and the original lack thereof

Does anyone know why the Super Shotgun wasn't in the original Doom 3? I mean, it was such a beloved addition to Doom II it always struck me as odd id didn't include it themselves and it rook Nerve to add such a legendary weapon.

I always thought the reason it wasn't included in the original Doom 3 was because they decided to give the regular shotgun a high spread value that made it easily substitute the super shotgun, since you had to get close to enemies to make it useful due to the high spread value. Either that or because they were trying to re-imagine the original game which didn't have a super shotgun.

I quickly replaced it with the DBS as soon as I got it in RoE because it worked pretty much the same, just with more damage and better sound effects.

2 hours ago, tempdecal.wad said:

I quickly replaced it with the DBS as soon as I got it in RoE because it worked pretty much the same, just with more damage and better sound effects.

The Doom 3 SSG actually has about the same spread as the Doom 2 equivalent, while dealing about twice its damage. The Doom 3 simple shotgun on the other hand has worse accuracy, equivalent to that of classic Doom monsters, if not even worse. This makes it pretty clear that the SG was a failed experiment and id backtracked to the more conventional all-purpose SSG design of Doom 2.

Huh, it felt so similar, I haven't checked the files so I'm not sure. Now I wonder if id also assisted Nerve with the weapon designs or if that was Nerve's decision.

I have a love/hate relationship with the SSG.

It's maybe too versatile. I love it but sometimes I get sick of Doom 2 demos that becomes minutes-long repetitions of "BOOM-click-clock-clack".

I mentioned in another thread, but I finished Doom 2016 and though I felt the SSG was crazy powerful, it fit way better in the armory than I felt it did in Doom 2. I am still trying to decide which version of Doom 3 to play through for the first time.

19 hours ago, DuckReconMajor said:

I have a love/hate relationship with the SSG.

It's maybe too versatile. I love it but sometimes I get sick of Doom 2 demos that becomes minutes-long repetitions of "BOOM-click-clock-clack".

I mentioned in another thread, but I finished Doom 2016 and though I felt the SSG was crazy powerful, it fit way better in the armory than I felt it did in Doom 2. I am still trying to decide which version of Doom 3 to play through for the first time.

 

1) Play BFG Edition/the new ports which are the BFG Edition version
2) Uh...
2nd Most Used Weapon

Most Used Weapon

Shall I understand the SSG is in the same category as the chainsaw? Surprisingly effective old-fashioned weapon. Otherwise the clash is really big between the futuristic looking base Doom 3 weapons (except for the chainsaw) and the vintage-looking SSG.

Alternatively, the RoE designers were out of touch or decided not to care.

29 minutes ago, printz said:

Shall I understand the SSG is in the same category as the chainsaw? Surprisingly effective old-fashioned weapon. Otherwise the clash is really big between the futuristic looking base Doom 3 weapons (except for the chainsaw) and the vintage-looking SSG.

 

Alternatively, the RoE designers were out of touch or decided not to care.

They could always have designed a new look to make it look right.

But as you pointed out, we still have the even more out of place Chainsaw. And to be fair, it's really easy to incorporate as you can have it in some guy's office as a display piece.

On 8/3/2019 at 4:30 PM, DuckReconMajor said:

I am still trying to decide which version of Doom 3 to play through for the first time.

If you still haven't started Doom 3 yet, I really implore you to play through it for the first time with the original release version (which is like $5 on Steam). Granted there were some visual/technical improvements in the BFG Edition (including support for Stereoscopic 3D, if that's a big selling point for you), what seemed like the biggest feature for most people was the flashlight. In the original release, you couldn't hold the flashlight while holding a weapon - in the BFG Edition, they scrapped that and made the flashlight operate like any other modern FPS (press 'F' and voilà, you have light, regardless of whatever weapon you're holding).

That change in the flashlight was a huge quality-of-life improvement for most people, but as far as I'm concerned, it came at a huge cost to the overall atmosphere and gameplay that id was aiming for. There are sequences (and in fact entire sections of levels) throughout the campaign that were specifically designed around the mechanic of having to choose between your flashlight and your gun (two big ones off the top of my head are in Alpha Labs Sector 2, and Delta Labs Sector 2b). These moments in the campaign are basically ruined by the new flashlight mechanic. It's hard for me to explain why without spoiling, but, essentially there are a few sequences where you're given an external, third-party source of light in the middle of a pitch black area crawling with demons, and it's super tense because you don't want to risk putting your weapon away, which means having to maintain close proximity to the other light source, so you can actually see what's coming for you - they're very suspenseful moments! Not in the BFG Edition though. You can literally waltz through these sequences without a care in the world, making these entire chunks of carefully crafted level design obsolete by simply pressing 'F'. 

A lot of people apparently hated the original flashlight mechanic, which I never really understood to begin with, but playing through the campaign years later in the BFG Edition made me realize for the first time just how much it actually added to the game. When you can press 'F' in the first level of the campaign, and never once have to think about the flashlight again, you're almost robbing yourself of an entire gameplay mechanic that's supposed to be there - not to mention robbing yourself of a large part of the atmosphere. In the original release version, there are a lot of dark corners, corridors, pits, ceilings, and everything in between, that you'll simply never see, because you don't dare take your flashlight out in that moment. And the thing is, with the flashlight on all the time, you come to realize you're not really missing anything - you're actually detracting from the quality of the level design because you're illuminating every single nook and cranny, not leaving anything up to the imagination. The grungy, creepy UAC installation they've created just ends up losing most of its unnerving mystique, and the threat of what might be lurking in the shadows is gone. There was a genuine decision-making process involved with the flashlight – and coupled with things like monster closets, the occasional jump scare, the hellish degradation of the facility, and the absolutely masterful ambient sound design, the devs did an outstanding job (in my mind) in making you feel the weight of choosing to pull the flashlight out, becoming completely vulnerable. This is just gone in the BFG Edition, which puts that much more emphasis in the players mind on the actual combat.

And this is where I think a lot of conflict rests with people – Doom 3 is, first and foremost, a horror game. An FPS sure, but a horror FPS. And the original flashlight mechanic was an integral piece of that puzzle. As soon as the entire element of light vs. darkness is removed, there’s really nothing left to focus on but the combat (from a gameplay POV), which is lackluster to say the least. It doesn’t play like the original Doom games, and it’s a far-cry from the rip and tear of Doom 2016. It’s a slow burn shooter designed to be suspenseful, tense, and creepy (at least the first half, or so). Towards the third act of the campaign, they seemed to be aiming for a more run-and-gun approach, and it even shines a little in that category in certain levels later on, when your arsenal has peaked and they’re throwing Hellknights at you like they’re Pinkies – but the flashlight mechanic still matters even then.

In Doom 3, your weapons are your defence against the demonic hordes, and your flashlight is your defence against the encroaching darkness. And the balance between these two things always felt like the point of the game to me. Without that balance, it’s just a mediocre shooter with brilliant environmental sound design. So, I recommend (for a first playthrough) attempting the original release version. Even if you end up despising the flashlight mechanic, you'll at least get a fair idea of what the game was supposed to be.

Oh man please don't hate me

I played throught it in BFG version. I got so angry about the flashlight I did the always-on command via the console. I also increased the pm_walkspeed because the slow movement made me so angry.

I do plan to run through the original in the hopefully near future though.

12 minutes ago, DuckReconMajor said:

Oh man please don't hate me

LOL that made me laugh pretty hard, was so unexpected. It's all good! I just stumbled across your comment and thought I'd share my thoughts, to each their own though. If someone genuinely finds it frustrating, I can't hold it against them for preferring the BFG Edition. It's still just a game, and should be fun for everyone.

This actually makes it easier now to discuss those sequences I was referring to. The big one for me (at least the first time I played through the campaign), was the part in Alpha Labs where you have to escort the scientist through that pitch black area. It was so tense trying to keep him alive, knowing you were literally dead meat if he died and you lost that light from the lamp he's carrying. That section is such a different experience when you can just turn on your flashlight and fire away at every Imp and Maggot before they get anywhere near you. 

Curious though - flashlight debate aside - what did you think of the game in general?

I do plan on playing regular Doom 3 the 'right' way. I know it's not quite the same experience not seeing it for the first time, but I know the general layout of what to do now so I'll have more patience for it.

I think it's a great game. I just got so annoyed by how easy it was for me to get lost, despite how linear it was. I turned up the walk speed and flashlight because I got tired of walking back and forth to find a door or ladder or elevator I missed. 

The non-stop techbase had me so excited to go to Hell. Then after getting the soul cube I wandered around for half an hour before having to look up that, yes, I actually have to go back to the crappy tech base! Ugh!

11 minutes ago, DuckReconMajor said:

I do plan on playing regular Doom 3 the 'right' way. I know it's not quite the same experience not seeing it for the first time, but I know the general layout of what to do now so I'll have more patience for it.

 

I think it's a great game. I just got so annoyed by how easy it was for me to get lost, despite how linear it was. I turned up the walk speed and flashlight because I got tired of walking back and forth to find a door or ladder or elevator I missed. 

 

The non-stop techbase had me so excited to go to Hell. Then after getting the soul cube I wandered around for half an hour before having to look up that, yes, I actually have to go back to the crappy tech base! Ugh!

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to come off as an ultra-purist haha. I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority for preferring the classic flashlight mechanic, so I can't really say it's the "right" way :P

I remember having to consult a walkthrough at several points the first time I played through it, it certainly doesn't have the most intuitive layout at times (that damn part with the tram thing that you had to navigate from station to station (and went up and down) had me all kinds of messed up). I have to admit I genuinely enjoyed the whole tech-base style they had going for the majority of the game. It got stale in a few levels, but for the most part I was digging it (I remember really liking the waste recycling levels, with the distinct, toxic-green foggy atmosphere, the introduction of the Cherub, the Mancubus, and Dr. Betruger's evil cackle just echoing everywhere, loved it). I definitely agree, the campaign could've used more time in Hell. That place was pretty cool, especially with the Hell-variants of the various enemies.

On 8/19/2019 at 1:36 AM, DuckReconMajor said:

I played throught it in BFG version. I got so angry about the flashlight I did the always-on command via the console. I also increased the pm_walkspeed because the slow movement made me so angry.

So you cheated? I suggest going back to the ORIGINAL Doom 3, with the proper and intentioned flashlight mechanic.

Also, you can sprint in Doom 3, so there certainly was no need to cheat on the walk speed.

The sprint lasted like 5 seconds. pfft no thank you.

I do plan to play it legit, but I stand by my decision to slog through it with cheats first.

1 hour ago, Foebane72 said:

 

So you cheated? I suggest going back to the ORIGINAL Doom 3, with the proper and intentioned flashlight mechanic.

 

Also, you can sprint in Doom 3, so there certainly was no need to cheat on the walk speed.

 

Just cause it was intended doesn't mean it was good.

6 hours ago, DuckReconMajor said:

The sprint lasted like 5 seconds. pfft no thank you.

 

I do plan to play it legit, but I stand by my decision to slog through it with cheats first.

I played through the first half of the campaign without being aware of the sprint key at all, let alone using it, but later on, it is much needed. I eventually bound sprint to my right mouse button rather than the keyboard.

Also, sprint is unlimited in Hell and similar parts, so it's not so limited. Unless BFG changed things, of course.

Sprinting Stamina lasts about half a minute, and since the levels aren't exactly huge they don't really require you to sprint a lot, I just take the time exploring things instead of just rushing to the exit as fast as possible and I have a much less frustrating time. The movement speed never really bothered me, It just felt like a natural fit for the kind of enclosed, tight spaces the majority of the game uses. The only times I really need to sprint is when there's nearby enemies and I want to quickly get close and shotgun them before the finish their spawning sequence or when I want to dodge Rev, Imp, Archvile and HK Projectiles.

I don't mean I sprint all the time, but before I bound the key to the RMB, I had difficulty avoiding the fireballs from the two Hell Knights in Delta Labs, directly before I went to Hell. It seems you really need sprint to dodge a lot of fireballs and other projectiles, and to outrun chasing monsters, although even Cherubs can catch up to me and slash me even with sprint.

7 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

Also, sprint is unlimited in Hell and similar parts, so it's not so limited. Unless BFG changed things, of course.

Having been in Hell in The Lost Mission, I can confirm that it is still unlimited.

1 hour ago, tempdecal.wad said:

The movement speed never really bothered me, It just felt like a natural fit for the kind of enclosed, tight spaces the majority of the game uses.

Honestly, that's part of the problem of Doom 3. It wants to be a claustrophobic horror game AND a classic FPS at the same time. It's a very schizophrenic game.

2 minutes ago, LadyVader1138 said:

Having been in Hell in The Lost Mission, I can confirm that it is still unlimited.

Honestly, that's part of the problem of Doom 3. It wants to be a claustrophobic horror game AND a classic FPS at the same time. It's a very schizophrenic game.

The original Doom 3 was claustrophobic horror, but the expansions and BFG converted it into more of an action game because of negative feedback by ungrateful little shits. Sort of reminds me of the Star Wars Prequels.

39 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

 

The original Doom 3 was claustrophobic horror, but the expansions and BFG converted it into more of an action game because of negative feedback by ungrateful little shits.

 

I was talking about the base campaign, not the expansions.

40 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

...because of negative feedback by ungrateful little shits. Sort of reminds me of the Star Wars Prequels.

1) That's rude.
2) Do you REALLY want me to get into why the prequels are complete shit? Cause I can do it. Cause I'm a giant fangirl of storytelling, film, AND Star Wars.

geez that "negative little shits" comment strikes me as something a particularly salty, obnoxious...me, would have said, like 9 months ago.

i can understand frustration over people's unwillingness to enjoy certain titles -- particularly certain doom titles!! -- at their terms, and the disappointment that stems from when those reactions bleed into the actual games. But lets not resort to namecalling over it.

1 hour ago, LadyVader1138 said:

I was talking about the base campaign, not the expansions.

I thought the tone was consistent, and more of a mixture of styles. Maybe the id Team themselves weren't sure how to implement Doom 3? I'm surprised one team would've stuck with the original flashlight mechanic, and another would come along in less than a decade and change it. Maybe orders by Bethesda, not sure.

I shouldn't attack those who didn't like Doom 3 as not being to their liking, but before Star Wars, I would've said that Doom 3 was like Halloween 3 as to how good the movie is, yet is almost universally reviled by Halloween fans, but that analogy doesn't work, as Doom 3 was always gonna be a different take on Doom.

37 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

I'm surprised one team would've stuck with the original flashlight mechanic, and another would come along in less than a decade and change it. Maybe orders by Bethesda, not sure.

It was probably them looking at it with hindsight and seeing duct tape mods (plus the fact that the Xbox port of Resurrection of Evil mounts the flashlight on the pistol).

37 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

I shouldn't attack those who didn't like Doom 3 as not being to their liking, but before Star Wars, I would've said that Doom 3 was like Halloween 3 as to how good the movie is, yet is almost universally reviled by Halloween fans, but that analogy doesn't work, as Doom 3 was always gonna be a different take on Doom.

The Halloween III comparison is more fair, honestly.

6 minutes ago, LadyVader1138 said:

It was probably them looking at it with hindsight and seeing duct tape mods (plus the fact that the Xbox port of Resurrection of Evil mounts the flashlight on the pistol).

 

The Halloween III comparison is more fair, honestly.

I did not know that, about the Xbox port.

OK, I'll stick with the Halloween 3 comparison, then.