What is your most hated demon in Doom?

What wads do you play where most revenants are dealing +300 damage? Especially 4 80 damage shots with the way Doom's RNG works. Even with the slight rigging in the RNG numbers the revs average damage is still around 40, not 80.

Even more lost souls seem to get the most hate in this thread and they have shit damage\hp.

23 minutes ago, Pegg said:

What wads do you play where most revenants are dealing +300 damage?

Any map where revenants can get caught in infighting with Cacos, HKs or even Barons. All those monsters may out-health the Revs, but if they infight and the exchange is mostly projectiles, then the Rev has the edge thanks both to its higher average damage, and its higher accuracy. Even in a melee not all is lost: its attack speed is higher than that of HKs and Barons, and he may win simply by painchanging them. It's not unusual for HKs to lose regularly to a single Rev, one on one, and even a Baron may take quite a disproportionate punishment before managing to deal those 300 HP and put the Rev down. Against 2 Revs, a single Baron will simply be mugged/gang raped. And speaking of gangs...

...if Revs were a brawling game character, they'd be a kind of tall, lean and mean street fighter gangstah, a switchblade-flipping, "bad mothafuckah" ruthless, "street smart" kind of tough guy that has many tricks up his sleeve. Not the top of the bunch in overall stats, but definitively among the toughest, never to be underestimated. Barons and HK would be just "dumb muscle" in comparison, like body builders that are strong but not as "street smart" as the tough guy. Now, when you face an entire gang/army of such guys....

23 minutes ago, Pegg said:

Even more lost souls seem to get the most hate in this thread and they have shit damage\hp.

Just like in the case of Chaingunners, there are other things to keep into consideration. Yeah, their damage/hp ratio is shit...or rather, if you flip it around, it's pretty damn high (100:15), in the bullet sponge leagues. Not Baron kind of high (900:60) but, interestingly, the same as a Cacodemon (400:60). What makes it annoying is that since it's a melee monster, it will tend to corner and surround the player, and once it lands a successful attack, it's almost immediately ready for another. Unlike other melee monsters, it's not enough to simply break contact, since it can charge faster than most projectiles, and those bullet-level damages can quickly add up.

On 7/18/2019 at 12:18 AM, Phobus said:

Doom/2 implies both the original game and the sequel.

yes, I'm well aware of that.

7 hours ago, kb1 said:

Yeah, but they don't count cause they don't complain :)

Au contraire... Most of them simply complain (or joke) about something else entirely, for example about people calling something "unfair" or "bullshit", even though several hours of testing went into a fight to make sure it behaves properly and can be beaten in a reliable fashion. Meanwhile the average bruised ego pontificates that it's all just luck-based, and "people shouldn't map like that" yada yada "standards" yada yada "accessibility" yada yada... It's gotten boring by now.

Luckily for all involved, these things usually happen behind closed doors, because after a while even somebody as stubborn as me comes to the realization that some discussions simply aren't worth having, at least not on a regular basis.

6 hours ago, Maes said:

Just like in the case of Chaingunners, there are other things to keep into consideration. Yeah, their damage/hp ratio is shit...or rather, if you flip it around, it's pretty damn high (100:15), in the bullet sponge leagues. Not Baron kind of high (900:60) but, interestingly, the same as a Cacodemon (400:60).

Cause almost all of these numbers are wrong I am now not sure if you are trolling or not so I'll save myself the effort of responding to all this nonsense

34 minutes ago, Ancalagon said:

Cause almost all of these numbers are wrong.

Oh c'mon, at least the Caco Is right... I admit I fux0r3d up the Lost Soul's maximum damage: it's the same as the Imp's.

Old habits die hard..."Lost Souls do the same damage as single bullets", said the Unofficial Doom FAQ v6.666 ages ago :)

For the rest, don't flatter yourself.

Damage-to-health ratio has nothing to do with much. 

1 hour ago, rdwpa said:

Damage-to-health ratio has nothing to do with much. 

Uhhh, actually it does, but not in an immediately obvious way. In general, low health/low tier monsters invite players to spam them liberally, since "Hey, they are weak, and not even noobs should have trouble with them, amirite or amirite?". But massing those weak monsters also creates a massive damage potential, if not checked. So for every 30 HP of damage that you don't deal e.g. to a shotgunner, there's potentially 45 HP worth of hot, manly lead waiting to be pumped deeply in you :-)

Of course a lot depends on the tactical situation. Being stuck in a room with 100 shotgunners might be better or worse than being stuck with a single cyberdemon or 10 revenants (same total HP) depending on cover, weaponry etc.

Plus there's all that Glass Cannon, Mighty Glacier etc. stuff. Most monsters with higher HP than the Revenant pretty much fall in the Mighty Glacier/Bullet Sponge category, and per-attack damage plateaus quickly. Imagine if e.g. the Baron had the same damage: health ratio as the Imp...ouch ;-) The Revenant sits in a kind of perverse "sweet spot", so to speak.

I mean, if you need to rope design decisions (regardless of how questionable) into this discussion in order to defend a "damage to HP ratio" argument.... How good was that argument in the first place?

39 minutes ago, Maes said:

Of course a lot depends on the tactical situation. Being stuck in a room with 100 shotgunners might be better or worse than being stuck with a single cyberdemon or 10 revenants (same total HP) depending on cover, weaponry etc.

 

 

Don't Cybers have 4000 HP?

No it doesn't matter at all because monsters don't always hit the player (now their damage:health is 0:health) and discussing their infighting is pointless when discussing how deadly they are to players, because they are helping the players when infighting.. And no revenants aren't consistently beating hell knights and barons with their pain chance and low hp.. more often they'll get stunlocked by them and get spanked to death. 

To add to that a PE in a small closet is virtually harmless. A Baron in a huge space is a walking ammo sink. An Archvile with sufficient cover is game of peekaboo.

Everyone's skill is different, everyone's tastes are different, every play-through is different. And, people whine. The game is supposed to be fun, and challenging. On the subject, if I had to whine about something, I think Lost Souls have too much health. I think just about any attack should kill them. They are just too small to be as tough as they are.

But, oh well - that's the game. If you don't like the gameplay, switch the difficulty, switch maps, or switch to a new game.

2 hours ago, kb1 said:

They are just too small to be as tough as they are.

Assuming the sprites are all in the same scale, they'd be quite a large skull IRL:

Pretty much like shooting at flying bison heads. Can't imagine those going down in 2-3 hits either.

Yeah I never thought of that... they some big fuckin' heads

2 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

Yeah I never thought of that... they some big fuckin' heads

Yeah, I guess so - they're almost as big as the shotgun guys. Still, my shotgun should knock them into next week...I'm just saying. It's just unsatisfying - that's my gripe. I want them to go flying in a million pieces, from a single shot...CRACK!

Well, the thickness of a wild boar's skull and its resistance to even shotgun slugs (let alone to buckshot) is legendary among Greek hunters (due to local regulations, they cannot hunt with anything but smoothbore shotguns). I can only imagine a bison's skull to be even more resistant, let alone an undead floating one from Hell.

Especially since shells in the game are most likely the ones that split to tear through as many organs as possible; shooting a lost soul with shotguns would be even worse than in the game. not to mention the chance they reflect shots and kill doomguy.

The lost souls are almost never a real threat, they are just annoying and waste ammo. I like the archviles because the encounters they present are interesting, but if used in an open area with no cover they become really skinny Hitler. The monsters I have the most are mancunbi, their projectiles are hard to doge because the fireballs are large, and there are two of them, but also they have a good amount of health and can also be an ammo waster.

On 7/23/2019 at 10:53 AM, Sir Hattington said:

really skinny Hitler.

LOL

Thank you sir. I needed that description in my life

After playing through plutonia back in 2013. I have this burning hatred for chaingunners. As much of meme people make plutonia out to be. I can atleast say it taught me on how I should/'nt be using chaingunners.

I've noticed how the lost souls in some or every console port (not sure) have reduced health. So that it's easily one shotgun shoot per each. But on PC they just have too much health for how many and chaotic they, usually released in masses and especially when there is a pain elemental they are everywhere and it takes the biggest amount of time to clean an area full of them. It's much bigger waster not only of ammo but of time too. It's the only time when I play on PC, that I think wow those who made the console ports knew one or two things that need to change.

Well, the game is supposed to present a challenge, after all.

whats yours mines the pain elemental, the archvile, and barens of hell, and lost souls.

Archviles for sure. They're fast, their attacks do a lot of damage if you can't find cover, they take a lot of hits to kill, and they revive other demons.

they guys at id were just like ok what can we do to make the game more bullshit on ultra violence and john romaro was just like make our worst nightmares a monster that is near impossable to get away from.  

I don't hate any monster per se, but can hate (or love) most of them depending on how they are used:

I hate chaingunners and massed imps used as snipers

I hate Wolfenstein SS used in non-Wolfenstein themed maps

I hate spectres I can't see because it's too dark

I hate arch viles used to resurrect arenas of enemies I already killed earlier in the map

I hate massed revenants used in slaughtermaps

I hate arachnotrons used in lazy Doom II map 7 clones

I hate hell knights, barons and mancubi used in too cramped spaces

I hate cacodemons used in areas that are very high leading them to drift way above you so they are impossible to shoot

I hate cyberdemons used in areas that don't give you enough room for manoeuvre to dodge their rockets, or are too dark so you can't see their rockets

I hate any heavy-hitter where you don't have the weapons equipped to kill them (killing baron with single shotgun, no thanks)

Ok, I hate Icon of Sin, period

They all have their place if used smartly, but pain elementals and by extension lost souls are probably the enemies I'm almost always annoyed to encounter. The idea of an enemy that spawns lesser enemies is cool, especially in 1994, but the problem is that lost souls have way too much health, or pain elementals attack way too fast, or probably both. Every lost soul wastes ammo, each one can take several seconds to kill because they fly into hard to get places, they stop you from using rockets safely, their sounds and movement and attacks are annoying, and they just generally pollute the air and make the game suck. If you rebalance lost souls to have less health then pain elementals are much more fun and balanced to fight, like in Eviternity. But in standard balance there's nothing worse than getting locked into a pattern where you fire the SSG at a pain elemental just as it spawns a lost soul, absorbing every pellet, and then you try to shoot again and the same thing happens, again and again. If you're in a map with tight ammo balance and pain elementals, you're basically screwed unless you can get lucky and kill them immediately.

The only other enemy I mostly dislike are barons, because they're so boring to fight, slow the game down and again eat up too much ammo. Their projectile attack is pathetic, they're slow and dumb, and so their only really dangerous attack is blocking your path or cornering you. I don't like Brutal Doom balance but giving them a more powerful multi-projectile attack was at least a good idea. Almost every fight is more boring when you add barons, unless you already have 100 rockets or a BFG...no, it's still more boring. Almost any baron in a map is better off being a hell knight unless there's a very good reason to use barons specifically, like for infighting. And if a mapper repeatedly forces the player to kill barons with the super shotgun or worse, the shotgun, they're going to meet the real barons of Hell in the afterlife. Carving solid granite with a plastic spoon is less tedious than shotgunning barons.

I guess if you count the icon of sin as an actual enemy and not a wall plus rudimentary scripting, then yeah, it sucks too.

I've answered this before and I might as well say it again.

Chaingunners, Archviles and Revenants. (and former sergeants when spammed).

Chaingunners for what ever reason seem to have lightning fast reflexes. I go around a corner and before I can say "oh hai" they're already trying to pelt me with bullets.

Archviles. High helath. High speed. Low pain chance. Revives enemies. Need I say more?

Revenants have a very nasty habit of sniping me out of nowhere or getting a cheeky homing rocket in when I'm just about to deliver the final blow to them. Not to mention, they're almost always in groups. Rarely do I see singular revenants.

I decided to add former sergeants to the list mostly due to how strong their shotgun blasts are. For being a pathetically weak enemy, FS' can REALLY pack a nasty punch at close range and, like chaingunners, also have a habit of snapping to me the second I see one. Thankfully a quick pelt of the chaingun does destroy them quickly.

On 9/6/2019 at 8:39 AM, Horus said:

I don't hate any monster per se, but can hate (or love) most of them depending on how they are used:

 

I hate chaingunners and massed imps used as snipers

I hate Wolfenstein SS used in non-Wolfenstein themed maps

I hate spectres I can't see because it's too dark

I hate arch viles used to resurrect arenas of enemies I already killed earlier in the map

I hate massed revenants used in slaughtermaps

I hate arachnotrons used in lazy Doom II map 7 clones

I hate hell knights, barons and mancubi used in too cramped spaces

I hate cacodemons used in areas that are very high leading them to drift way above you so they are impossible to shoot

I hate cyberdemons used in areas that don't give you enough room for manoeuvre to dodge their rockets, or are too dark so you can't see their rockets

I hate any heavy-hitter where you don't have the weapons equipped to kill them (killing baron with single shotgun, no thanks)

 

Ok, I hate Icon of Sin, period

You must love sandy Petersen, lol