ZeMystic Posted October 30, 2019 The Ultimate Doom was released after Doom 2, adding a whole new episode into the original. However it didn't add anything from Doom 2 into OG Doom. What would you think would've happened if they added everything. Do you think that Ultimate Doom would've been the go to for custom megawads? or it'd be more common to get full ultimate doom wads? 3 Share this post Link to post
Doomkid Posted October 31, 2019 If UD had all the Doom2 resources in it, it would probably be a 50/50 split between UD and Doom2 in terms of wad output. I can't speak for others, but I don't think I've ever made a single Ultimate Doom map in my entire life, strictly because I can't place Hell Knights, Revenants, Mancs, Arachnotrons and SSGs. Once you add in the Doom1 exclusive textures to Doom2, you're kind of pushing to find any reason to stick with Doom1, other than preferring the episodic format which is totally reasonable. This is more of a "wadmaking culture over the years" gripe, but when making Doom2 campaigns I swear there is a pressure to make it at least 15 maps, just to get it into the megawad category. I never liked that, I always felt 10 was a more reasonable number - After all, at that point it's going on longer than a full episode, and by the nature of most wadmakers the maps will be more challenging than the default offerings anyway. Anything over 8 is a decent bite to chew, imo! The term "episode" to refer to Doom2 campaigns of a middling length never seemed to catch on for some reason either. I feel like this has led to shorter Doom2 campaigns get treated as second class citizens quite often, sandwiched between the always more popular megawads or single-map releases. Maybe I'm just falsely perceiving it that way, though. Anyway, the point of all that rambling is that you can make an 8-9 map campaign feel nice and "whole", with a proper ending and everything, in Doom1. Harder to do that in Doom2 and thus leads to some arguably unsatisfying endings - even some of the greatest not-quite-megawad-length Doom2 campaigns just kind of.. lead back into the Doom2 maps with no proper "send off" or Congraturation screen.. That aspect of Doom2 modding vs Doom1 kinda blows. In literally every other way though, Doom2 is preferable. 21 Share this post Link to post
RonnieJamesDiner Posted October 31, 2019 18 minutes ago, Doomkid said: I can't speak for others, but I don't think I've ever made a single Ultimate Doom map in my entire life, strictly because I can't place Hell Knights, Revenants, Mancs, Arachnotrons and SSGs. Up until very recently making a map for Deadly Standards 3, I'd never made a UD map either. It was a huge learning curve having to find interesting ways of using half the bestiary I was accustomed to, and my appreciation for authors who churn out entire 4 episode UD wads skyrocketed. It takes some serious creativity! I always wondered what it would be like to take the 4 UD episodes and add in the Doom 2 enemies and SSG -- leave everything as is, in terms of layout and texturing, just go through and re-populate the maps with the full bestiary and the SSG. Has there ever been a community project that did this? 7 Share this post Link to post
Maximum Matt Posted October 31, 2019 Hell Beneath and Perfect Hatred could've benefited with an SSG. 11 Share this post Link to post
GarrettChan Posted October 31, 2019 48 minutes ago, Doomkid said: This is more of a "wadmaking culture over the years" gripe, but when making Doom2 campaigns I swear there is a pressure to make it at least 15 maps, just to get it into the megawad category. Somebody had changed the definition of "MegaWAD" recently ;P If UD has everything from D2, probably they won't be separated from each other any more, but this didn't happen in our timeline, so no one knows. TBH, missing the things from D2 limits the design probabilities quite a lot, and it's understandable you only map for D2. Personally I probably avoid playing UD maps unless the project is very high quality. 4 Share this post Link to post
Diabolución Posted October 31, 2019 If you are targeting at the very least Crispy Doom, I guess you could take advantage of the native support for No Rest for the Living and create an episode for Doom II which follows the same level progression, overriding the maps, level names, par times, musics and ending text of nerve.wad. I haven’t seen such project yet, but it should be pretty doable and provide the best of both worlds: proper episode format and expanded resources of Doom II. 5 Share this post Link to post
seed Posted October 31, 2019 In the community, this would've made the split more even, as the majority of wad makers use Doom 2's IWAD to build stuff. As about the games themselves, Doom 2 would've been just an expansion to the original Doom, and the difficulty of the original would've been completely trivialized after the addition of the SSG. 2 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) If you provide original sprites for the monsters, and a small DeHackEd file to change their editor numbers, you can get most of the Doom II content into Ultimate Doom. The SSG and Megasphere will still be a problem. 7 hours ago, GarrettChan said: Somebody had changed the definition of "MegaWAD" recently ;P No, not recently. The text blurb on /idgames hasn't been changed in decades. 2 Share this post Link to post
Andromeda Posted October 31, 2019 6 hours ago, Gez said: No, not recently. The text blurb on /idgames hasn't been changed in decades. He's probably referring to John Romero announcing SIGIL as a megawad despite it only having 9 levels. 4 Share this post Link to post
TheNoob_Gamer Posted October 31, 2019 6 hours ago, Andromeda said: He's probably referring to John Romero announcing SIGIL as a megawad despite it only having 9 levels. In a technical sense, Sigil is a megawad. 9 SP maps + 9 DM maps. Quote Q: You mentioned that there’s nine levels in this megawad, as well as nine deathmatch-only levels. Are there eighteen levels in the megawad? A: Actually, there are only nine distinct level wad files. It turns out that you can put both the single- player and the deathmatch levels in the same wad. If you run the wad in deathmatch mode, you spawn in the deathmatch area of the level. If you play the SIGIL Megawad in cooperative mode, you start in the single-player part of the level. This support has been in DOOM® since the beginning. 3 Share this post Link to post
Maximum Matt Posted November 3, 2019 Which of course leads to my big question: should I invest in an old-school Doom II converter to use on Sigil before I play it? Maybe I've played too much Maximum Doom and it has fried my brain (quite likely), but I seriously don't wanna have to stand there shotgunning a caco six times a piece; if I'm playin' Doom, I need the boomstick, son. And I'm willing to put up with all the other changes that entails, mainly the shattering of enemy balance when every forth shotgunner is turned into a chaingunner, cacos change into Pain Elementals, barons to hell knights, and of course the obligatory single pinky transformed into an Arch-Vile, usually at the start of a level. Bring that shit on. Suck it down 1 Share this post Link to post
Doomkid Posted November 3, 2019 Life hack: Open SIGIL In Doom Builder, use “find and replace” in a few of the maps to swap all shotguns for SSGs (sergeants will undoubtedly provide you with single barrels). Rename the internal MIDIs accordingly to get them to play back in Doom2 (to d_runnin and such). Load alongside doom1-2.wad, which is simply all the doom1 textures in a vanilla-compat wad that works for Doom2. Its more effort than DMCNV32 or whatever that old converter was called, but it won’t go around replacing all the textures with butt-ugly ones and plopping down 7 arch viles at random! 4 Share this post Link to post
Gez Posted November 3, 2019 SLADE can do the search-and-replace thing automatically in all maps. Archive->Maintenance->Replace in Maps. You need to know the editor numbers, but you can find them on the wikis. 2 Share this post Link to post
Dexiaz Posted November 3, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 4:27 AM, ZeMystic said: What would you think would've happened if they added everything Playstation Doom will happen here. (See also Pain Elemental and Chaingunner on E1M1) 3 Share this post Link to post
CBM Posted November 11, 2019 I think you can already have the ultimate experience if you use Wad Smoosh :D I did and even made it work with heretic in the mix, I have currently added all episodes from Blood and more by including various modded blood TCs, plus everything is 3D models 1 Share this post Link to post
Reisal Posted November 11, 2019 There would have been way more Ultimate Doom content alongside Doom 2 content, considering some like the episodic format rather than the 30 map full-on set. 2 Share this post Link to post
Super Mighty G Posted November 11, 2019 Oh cool just what I wanted: Hell Beneath with Chaingunners and Perfect Hatred with Revenants 1 Share this post Link to post