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Linguica

Noclip: "Designing DOOM Eternal's New & Classic Demons"

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5 hours ago, Szuran said:

I'm old. Games feel so overdesigned to me these days.

Relatable. At least Doom Eternal isn't introducing some sort of "slayer vision" that makes everything grayscale and highlights the important things. IMHO if your game needs to do that, you've failed your environment design. I guess DE has something sorta like that with all the neon junk. I kinda prefer graphics where we could easily make out a non-highlighted not-spinning-in-the-air medkit or ammo clip. We could still do it in Doom 3...

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On 1/28/2020 at 1:19 PM, Yourfacedotcom said:

Oh man those VG247 guys talking over the gameplay are so awkward. Lots of "ehhhs" and "umms".

And that "Noclip interview ANALYZED!" video seems in bad taste. Using someone else's content as a springboard for your own videos is a pretty lazy way to create content for your channel.


Hey there, one thing YouTube likes, is if you DO have other content on your channel (which many Eternal videos use footage from gameplay videos uploaded), that you make it your own. Add something of value over the top. Even reaction channels are able to do what they do because of this, providing no copyright has been violated.

 

What I intended to do here - in my channel and streams, I often do high difficulty/gameplay analysis - so this fit right into it. Hugo himself talking about enemy design, and me adding to it with my thoughts from an Ultra-Nightmare/challenge run perspective - which I feel is more than just watching and agreeing or disagreeing with what Hugo said.

 

But all together, I understand if it’s not something you dig. No worries, rip and tear on March 20!

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On 1/28/2020 at 2:33 PM, warman2012 said:

I hope they reworked that attack. Trust me, if they didn't, a whole lot of ppl are gonna be screaming bloody murder TO get rid of it.

When I think line of sight attack, I think of the Hell Razer from DOOM 2016 - which we haven’t seen any of the Razer in Eternal footage just yet, so it very well may not return in Eternal.

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On 1/28/2020 at 4:59 AM, Antroid said:

 

 

Something he said when talking about the tentacle sounded iffy. He almost made it sound as if they're just putting more random junk in between "the big fights". In 2016 it was mainly zombies and occasionally one or two mobs just appearing in your path in a very straightforward way. And now they're populating the areas "between the big fights" with more shit so you have to shoot more often or something. The division of the levels into "big fights" still kinda says to me they haven't gotten far enough away from the "little deathmatch arenas connected by corridors" structure. I have however avoided watching most of the gameplay footage that's spilling out recently so I could be wrong. Here's hoping.


I have hopes that the between fights will still be ok! I’ve seen some footage of a mini fight, and it’s actually a battle. 2016 even had between fights (argent tower first quad damage, dual summoner hallway!)

 

you’ll have to use each mini fight or encounter as a way to help you refill what you may need at that time, which in DOOM 2016 100%, you already have a purpose for them!

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On 1/28/2020 at 4:21 AM, Ziad EL Zein said:

I Love the new enemies and the added depth in combat ... can't wait to play it 

A brilliant level up when compared to 2016  

I really miss the old excellent level design of the originals and the wads that came afterward... & I don't really like the focus on Arena Combat. 

In an ideal remake of Doom:  Arena combat can stay as an option but not as a basic mechanic of progression... 

Still, I am gonna try this out and I feel excited enough to beat it on Nightmare like I did 2016 ...


hey there, I can’t quote your post below this, but see my post above to Antroid for my thoughts on this part!

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1 minute ago, Allstin said:


I have hopes that the between fights will still be ok! I’ve seen some footage of a mini fight, and it’s actually a battle. 2016 even had between fights (argent tower first quad damage, dual summoner hallway!)

Honestly I'm not too beat up about it, it's not THAT bad in 2016 and they keep saying they're improving it in Eternal. I hope more Eternal levels are structured like the Foundry or the level after that.

 

Also, honestly, considering the levels seem to have much more broken up layouts in terms of verticality and platforming between the "skate parks", I expect it'll actually feel much more natural that there's less monsters there. It would be more of a platforming areas / combat areas divide, with some of each bleeding into the other kind of area, of course. I wonder how far those stray mobs can typically pursue you if you just hop and jump across the level away from them.

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13 hours ago, Urdak5891 said:

 

Serious question, why does having preplaced monsters in very small parts that might not have them, or not enough (definition of enough being a ymmv item) make a difference to you?

 

Hey, just a legit question, why does it matter and even detract? Can someone maybe answer with their take / opinion? Because i actually like that the combat has its own section and there are areas with few preplaced monsters that serve to tell story or as a break with puzzles in between

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It just doesn't feel right for combat to be compartmentalized into special arenas. As I've said before, it makes it predictable and predictability makes it less exciting for me. In addition to predictability, it also makes encounters feel much more artificial. If I were to make a somewhat dumb comparison, it's like good levels for the original Doom are exploring an old abandoned house, and the levels in D2016 are visiting a haunted house attraction.

 

It also confines the combat situation into the arenas, making it impossible to make any sort of tactical decision that involves the rest of the level, such as retreating to resupply or finding a better direction of approach (not that either is a factor in D2016 anyway). And on a purely subjective front, it splits the levels up instead of them feeling like a single large and interconnected space.

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30 minutes ago, Antroid said:

It just doesn't feel right for combat to be compartmentalized into special arenas. As I've said before, it makes it predictable and predictability makes it less exciting for me. In addition to predictability, it also makes encounters feel much more artificial. If I were to make a somewhat dumb comparison, it's like good levels for the original Doom are exploring an old abandoned house, and the levels in D2016 are visiting a haunted house attraction.

 

It also confines the combat situation into the arenas, making it impossible to make any sort of tactical decision that involves the rest of the level, such as retreating to resupply or finding a better direction of approach (not that either is a factor in D2016 anyway). And on a purely subjective front, it splits the levels up instead of them feeling like a single large and interconnected space.

 

Ok good points. The devs have said they want to make it claustrophobic and funnel into arenas with no escape to force a certain playstyle oriented on only offense, aggressive action and forward motion constantly, no defensive style or sniping, stealth, etc. but also learning to resource manage in the process. They call it the doom dance / funzone

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Yeah, for the actual fight process that they have worked out this sort of level structure is probably best, since a fight in the new Dooms is something that is a distinct state of gameplay. It's like if you walk on the beach, sometimes the waves reach your feet and it's the incidental enemies, but then you go for a swim and that's the true intense combat in the arena parts. If the combat was as in and out as it was in the original games, it wouldn't really let you get that experience. I guess a way to have both would be still having arenas, but maybe spread them out a bit more and put OG-like layouts and setups between them. Which honestly could be pretty close to what Eternal might have. As you said elsewhere, the only thing that matters is for march 20th to come sooner.

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On 1/29/2020 at 2:37 AM, Antroid said:

They could be like mimics and pretend to be weapons or something.

Reminds of the Arch-vile medikits in All Hell is Breaking Loose....

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22 hours ago, Urdak5891 said:

 

Serious question, why does having preplaced monsters in very small parts that might not have them, or not enough (definition of enough being a ymmv item) make a difference to you?

I don't know what you are talking about anymore. My problem is with flow of the game. Monster ceased to be obstacles and started to be atractions and resources. You lost every game mechanic except of twitch combat limited to arbitrary arenas, that are not even natural part of the world anymore, and traversing very trivial linear paths. That is obviously where all the work in Eternal went and that is not what makes games interesting for me. It is sad, because DooM 2016 did had almost everything I miss in Eternal compared to DooM mods. Mainly variability, flow, openness and meaningful enviromental storytelling. Eternal feels real bad right now.

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Something i liked from some of the footage is how there's a room with like 9 cages and even though they seem to be optional or meant to trick the player, they remind me of any wad or classic map where there's multiple doors/paths but the player wants to figure out which one is the "ideal" path/door and most of them have enemies being prepared.

Kinda gives me Tricks and Traps vibes and this room i'm talking about seems to take place after you get the SSG from the Revenant drone.

 

If the Marauder is meant to mirror Doomguy, i wonder if he can even pick up ammo/health/armor.

It'd at least make him unique.

 

11 hours ago, Antroid said:

Yeah, for the actual fight process that they have worked out this sort of level structure is probably best, since a fight in the new Dooms is something that is a distinct state of gameplay. It's like if you walk on the beach, sometimes the waves reach your feet and it's the incidental enemies, but then you go for a swim and that's the true intense combat in the arena parts. If the combat was as in and out as it was in the original games, it wouldn't really let you get that experience. I guess a way to have both would be still having arenas, but maybe spread them out a bit more and put OG-like layouts and setups between them. Which honestly could be pretty close to what Eternal might have. As you said elsewhere, the only thing that matters is for march 20th to come sooner.

 

I feel like a way to describe the problem with the new combat is that it simplifies Doom into just being about "running and gunning" when Doom's combat might as well be about a variety of combat situations, meaning that style of fighting is Doom but isn't the only sort of combat.

This sort of explains some gimmicky/experimental maps and rare occasions like the Megasphere/Archvile jump secret in TNT's map 11.

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4 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

It is sad, because DooM 2016 did had almost everything I miss in Eternal compared to DooM mods. Mainly variability, flow, openness and meaningful enviromental storytelling. Eternal feels real bad right now.

Again. Where did people get an advance Copy of Eternal to make this assumption?

 

I doubt anyone can say this after only seeing 30 minutes of gameplay

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I did not watched it whole but i do not like at all some of the things he says, but at the same time it says a lot about the new Doom franchise.

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14 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

I don't know what you are talking about anymore.

 Umm, just asked a question?

 

which you answered, so thanks for explaining your concerns better. We will however, have to agree to disagree on 16 being very open world and non linear. Only the foundry level. Some other things you are correct. There is more of monsters being attractions rather than obstacles, even though it was in 2016 too. To each his own, to me personally it doesn't detract from anything and i prefer combat sections in arenas being broken up and their own thing. I feel like preplaced monsters in 16 were a bit more than (what we have seen so far, to be fair) eternal, but the difference is negligible. Environmental storytelling was there in 16 but it wasn't huge or in every level either, i think you should wait and judge using the final game, not only 2 levels, one of which (cultist base) we weren't even allowed to see in full. I see a clear flow of gameplay in eternal, personally. As for variability, I have honestly no idea what you mean. Is that the same as variety? In environments, story, or what else exactly?

 

in short, thanks for explaining your concerns and while i understand them, I myself don't see them / agree with them, except perhaps the one where perhaps monsters are more of a resource now than before (I personally like it but understand your gripe). Maybe you feel like it has strategic / rpg elements instead of being a raw 90s style mindless shooter to which its supposed to pay homage. Then again, id have made it clear they are doing their own thing, vision and funnelling players into their own idea of a 'funzone' doomdance playstyle and even 'embracing the saturday morning cartoon feel / absurdity'. But while it bother some people, I like it, strangely enough. I find it original and refreshing, and even love the one ups and colors / artstyle / power fantasy / demons, angels and mages story.

Edited by Urdak5891

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1 hour ago, D88M3R said:

I did not watched it whole but i do not like at all some of the things he says, but at the same time it says a lot about the new Doom franchise.

To me it's refreshing, especially when he talks about frustrating the player. Devs nowadays seem utterly scared of frustrating the player on purpose so they learn, which has watered down a lot of things in gaming. But if you can use the frustration to enhance the game and encourage the player to keep playing and master it (i.e if you die, it's your fault, no questions asked), it's not frustrating for them as much as it is a lesson, and that's why people can't stop playing.

 

When the demons can't kill you in this game on Nightmare anymore, and you achieve the full power fantasy by dodging everything, adapting to every demon in every way with every weapon, managing resources properly, you know you earned it and that's why it's fun. It's just masterful game design IMO and from the gameplay I've seen, everything Hugo has been talking about is in full effect.

Edited by oCrapaCreeper

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31 minutes ago, oCrapaCreeper said:

To me it's refreshing, especially when he talks about frustrating the player. Devs nowadays seem utterly scared of frustrating the player on purpose so they learn, which has watered down a lot of things in gaming. But if you can use the frustration to enhance the game and encourage the player to keep playing and master it (i.e if you die, it's your fault, no questions asked), it's not frustrating for them as much as it is a lesson, and that's why people can't stop playing.

 

When the demons can't kill you in this game on Nightmare anymore, and you achieve the full power fantasy by dodging everything, adapting to every demon in every way with every weapon, managing resources properly, you know you earned it and that's why it's fun. It's just masterful game design IMO and from the gameplay I've seen, everything Hugo has been talking about is in full effect.

 

Yeah i love it, also i think a lot of people can tend to give up at the first sign of adversity and ragequit (some people, not all, some are my own friends. And it has nothing to do with boomers or zoomers, I hate posts where someone groups everyone by age.) Me personally, i love the challenge. I love a good challenge where i know i learnt and will come back ten times better and stronger. I loved that hard gorenest in res ops, before you activate the lift. I must've died over 20 times, but when i finally did it i felt like i achieved something meaningful to me. And I felt like in doom 16, once you got a few upgrades and praetor options and runes, midway through, game was no longer challenging, and you could cheese it even on nightmare. I get the feeling a relative directly proportional and progressive challenging combat system exists in eternal, and they have fixed that personal complaint of mine in Eternal.

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On 1/30/2020 at 12:35 AM, Allstin said:


Hey there, one thing YouTube likes, is if you DO have other content on your channel (which many Eternal videos use footage from gameplay videos uploaded), that you make it your own. Add something of value over the top. Even reaction channels are able to do what they do because of this, providing no copyright has been violated.

 

What I intended to do here - in my channel and streams, I often do high difficulty/gameplay analysis - so this fit right into it. Hugo himself talking about enemy design, and me adding to it with my thoughts from an Ultra-Nightmare/challenge run perspective - which I feel is more than just watching and agreeing or disagreeing with what Hugo said.

 

But all together, I understand if it’s not something you dig. No worries, rip and tear on March 20!

This is the first time I've seen you actually take part in some sort of discussion rather than just plugging your own content.

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20 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

Monster ceased to be obstacles and started to be attractions and resources.

Yeah. Doom offers two different challenges to go through, you can go against the monster and seek to kill them all (completion) or go despite the monsters and just attempt to reach the exit ASAP (speed). Arena combat forces you to go against the monsters, because you can't leave the arena before the fight is over. It's okay when you have some arenas from time to time, but when they're the majority of the gameplay, a speedrun can no longer be done legitimately and has to just exploit glitches to bypass the arenas. If you look at a non-max speedrun of Doom 2016, what you'll see is 95% of the time spent out of bounds.

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On 1/30/2020 at 12:24 PM, doomsucksass said:

Reminds of the Arch-vile medikits in All Hell is Breaking Loose....

 

I thought naturally, mimics in Doom could turn out to be tentacles or Lost Souls.

Or maybe grow spider legs/turn out to be Doom 3 Trites.

 

An issue i can see with mimics is if the feedback still doesn't work with some players that are colorblind or have something else that makes it harder for them.

Maybe mimics could be more optional/in certain difficulty settings.

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On 1/31/2020 at 11:03 AM, Gez said:

Yeah. Doom offers two different challenges to go through, you can go against the monster and seek to kill them all (completion) or go despite the monsters and just attempt to reach the exit ASAP (speed). Arena combat forces you to go against the monsters, because you can't leave the arena before the fight is over. It's okay when you have some arenas from time to time, but when they're the majority of the gameplay, a speedrun can no longer be done legitimately and has to just exploit glitches to bypass the arenas. If you look at a non-max speedrun of Doom 2016, what you'll see is 95% of the time spent out of bounds.


theres OOB work in classic; just not much. One discovered more recently

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On 1/31/2020 at 10:33 AM, Yourfacedotcom said:

This is the first time I've seen you actually take part in some sort of discussion rather than just plugging your own content.


The content i showed here, is my feelings on the topic, put into video form, rather than text. I’ve left other messages as well, and am involved in Discord as well.

 

if something doesn’t relate to the topic, it’s definitely spam - though if it answers a question or is directly related, I think it fits.

 

but I do see what you mean about discussion. I haven’t posted here as much as I use Discord and such. 

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37 minutes ago, Allstin said:

theres OOB work in classic; just not much. One discovered more recently

I know, but it's really finicky to use, can only work if you can access the exit switch from the void, and AFAIK there are only two levels where it lets you go faster than an in-bound route (Phobos Anomaly and Halls of the Damned).


I mean, compare:

Spoiler



 

with:
 

Spoiler



 

 

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On 1/31/2020 at 5:56 AM, oCrapaCreeper said:

To me it's refreshing, especially when he talks about frustrating the player. Devs nowadays seem utterly scared of frustrating the player on purpose so they learn, which has watered down a lot of things in gaming. But if you can use the frustration to enhance the game and encourage the player to keep playing and master it (i.e if you die, it's your fault, no questions asked), it's not frustrating for them as much as it is a lesson, and that's why people can't stop playing.

 

When the demons can't kill you in this game on Nightmare anymore, and you achieve the full power fantasy by dodging everything, adapting to every demon in every way with every weapon, managing resources properly, you know you earned it and that's why it's fun. It's just masterful game design IMO and from the gameplay I've seen, everything Hugo has been talking about is in full effect.

 

That is not what i mean, i mean that when he is trying to sell me the game, he fails miserably, he says all the stuff that i do not want to hear and that have no place in a Doom game.
However when he sounds more like a "nerd" i do like what he says and it  makes me intrigued about the game.

 

Then there is the stuff that he says about each demon, which tells me this guy has never even touched a Doom game: he says crap like "how important" is to get the Archvile right (just to say one example) but i find that funny the character is unrecognizable until he does the classic pose.

 

I stopped watching the video like 5 minutes in because it was taking away the little hype i have for the game.
I hope they focused more on level design and fun gameplay than pretty graphics, modern gaming BS, platforming and arenas and other stuff that was the weak point of the previous game.

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On 1/29/2020 at 9:23 PM, whatup876 said:

Speaking of wads inspiration, i wonder how id feels about classic Doom mods inspired by the new games.

 

The new Doom games seem deeply influenced by fan wads, the two new games in fact are like two big and expensive fan fictions.

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On 1/30/2020 at 7:42 AM, Antroid said:

It just doesn't feel right for combat to be compartmentalized into special arenas. As I've said before, it makes it predictable and predictability makes it less exciting for me. In addition to predictability, it also makes encounters feel much more artificial. If I were to make a somewhat dumb comparison, it's like good levels for the original Doom are exploring an old abandoned house, and the levels in D2016 are visiting a haunted house attraction.

 

It also confines the combat situation into the arenas, making it impossible to make any sort of tactical decision that involves the rest of the level, such as retreating to resupply or finding a better direction of approach (not that either is a factor in D2016 anyway). And on a purely subjective front, it splits the levels up instead of them feeling like a single large and interconnected space.

 

Most games of today have completely neglected what was known as "level design", that among other things is the big problem that made 2016 feel like a repetitive, dragging chore less than halfway through the campaign.

Lets hope they polished that aspect for Eternal.

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25 minutes ago, D88M3R said:

 

The new Doom games seem deeply influenced by fan wads, the two new games in fact are like two big and expensive fan fictions.

This makes no sense at all. By this logic. Final Doom and Doom 3 are also "fan fiction" because they did not share the same vision of John Romero and Tom Hall.

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