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lazygecko

This does not feel like a Doom game

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4 minutes ago, Antroid said:

who's saying I liked glory kills and the chainsaw in 2016? :D Chainsaw for ammo is probably my biggest gripe in DE

Well, then why do you expect to like something in Eternal when you had the same problem with in D16?

 

18 minutes ago, Antroid said:

mostly a quick way to kill some annoying big demon. For me at least.

It can be used the same way here, considering most big arenas have 2 chainsaw fuels and you have one recharge when you get empty. Except for very large demons like Barons and Crucible kills them for you.

Still, you will need to chainsaw some enemies to get ammo, I give you that. But it's not really annoying once you get the hang of it.

 

I was completing some Slayer Gates on first try on UV after getting the hang of it.

 

8 minutes ago, Antroid said:

perfectly made to suit my tastes and my personal perception of Doom. :D

That's the thing friend, not everyone shares your taste.

 

4 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

We're talking about a Doom game

In this case, one that recreates many OG Doom things.

 

25 minutes ago, Antroid said:

in a way that doesn't break the game

Still, one ups are not required.

But about the dash refills, I already said that since the game has a huge focus on platforming, it does make sense for it to have something for a long distance jump and dash.

 

27 minutes ago, Antroid said:

Lots of purely platforming games don't have any sort of navigational powerups.

Fair point, but DE wants to be different. And this game is trying to feel like a 90's game with superb graphics and gameplay. (Might seem weird, but this is how I view DE)

 

29 minutes ago, Antroid said:

but your reply was spectacular in how much it missed the whole point of my post being "what I'd have preferred to be different"

You missed my point in a way too.

Point was not keeping Eternal the same and applying the changes, but to state that some things you said have alternatives and are fine to exist in the game

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4 minutes ago, Antroid said:

fun that was already in the game like the combat loop does in the nuDooms

You mean the lockdown arenas? Correct that they are not optional, but the game is built around the concept of getting weapon points for them. The genre is accepted by most here. 

 

And consider this, even OG Doom has people disliking it (Utter morons, I know). So, a doom game cannot appeal to everyone.

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7 minutes ago, Antroid said:

My point is that calling it "og doom with modern graphics" is a very narrow way to look at it. Especially when you word it that way seemingly to imply that it's a bad thing somehow. Besides, there could be many changes and additions to it that I personally would welcome. They would have to not detract from the fun that was already in the game like the combat loop does in the nuDooms, rather, they would have to simply add new fun things on top of that. Like the interactive displays or PDAs from Doom 3. In the end it's all very subjective for what changes detract and what changes are good, different for many people, but the point still stands, "roll back some of the Doom Eternal changes" does not equal "Just make a clone of Doom 2".

Fair enough. "Clone of Doom 2" were not the words I used though. Now who's misrepresenting :)

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1 minute ago, The Doommer said:

Well, then why do you expect to like something in Eternal when you had the same problem with in D16?

I didn't. :) Touchdown can confirm, we've discussed Eternal at length with him in DMs. I always knew I didn't like these mechanics being even more emphasized in Eternal. I'm not disappointed by Eternal whatsoever. Hell, as I've said above, I'm having an absolute blast with it. I just can't help but think of "what if it was exactly like I'd have wanted".

 

1 minute ago, The Doommer said:

It can be used the same way here, considering most big arenas have 2 chainsaw fuels and you have one recharge when you get empty. Except for very large demons like Barons and Crucible kills them for you.

Still, you will need to chainsaw some enemies to get ammo, I give you that. But it's not really annoying once you get the hang of it.

 

I was completing some Slayer Gates on first try on UV after getting the hang of it.

True, but I never save up the fuel that way. Honestly can't be arsed when I always need the one pip to get ammo. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm having fun and I've gotten the hang of the game around level 4 and am now comfortable with the mechanics. Though I'm definitely still dying a bunch, especially in slayer gates, but it's never frustrating.

 

1 minute ago, The Doommer said:

That's the thing friend, not everyone shares your taste.

Obviously. That's why I try not to say that the changes would be objective improvements, just that that's what I personally would've wanted and liked.

 

1 minute ago, The Doommer said:

Fair point, but DE wants to be different. And this game is trying to feel like a 90's game with superb graphics and gameplay. (Might seem weird, but this is how I view DE)

Well, this is again a very subjective matter of taste, but I think it goes just a bit far with the gaminess. I have a line for that sort of thing. For me, considering the original Doom made a point of getting rid of the lives system after Wolfenstein 3D, lives and dash refills are a tad much. Some other things aren't. Nothing in the original dooms glowed neon colors for no reason, for example, but you still had bottles and helmets scattered everywhere. I guess it's a very arbitrary line for me, but still. Overall I'm very much in favor of a healthy aspect of gaminess in modern games, elements being unabashedly video game things not meant to be taken literally (I love the big environmental obstacles and hazards in DE, like the fireball launchers, electricity arcs, large moving parts of machinery or hell flesh), but the amount that feels like "too much" varies between different games and series and whatnot.

 

1 minute ago, The Doommer said:

You missed my point in a way too.

Point was not keeping Eternal the same and applying the changes, but to state that some things you said have alternatives and are fine to exist in the game

If you say so. In the end, obviously it's all fine, it works for so many people and is as valid a direction to take the Doom franchise as any other. I very much believe that the old games could be seen in many directly opposite ways, and the way I saw them just doesn't happen to align with the ways the current developers see them. Shit, for me, Doom 3 is the doomies of all doom games. That should probably quickly create a pigeon hole for me in your head, eh? ;D

 

11 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

You mean the lockdown arenas? Correct that they are not optional, but the game is built around the concept of getting weapon points for them. The genre is accepted by most here.

The fun I'm missing in the new games is honestly just being able to take combat encounters at my own pace (outside of ambushes), scrounging for resources (a holdover from when I was bad enough to run out of ammo in the OGs - but it still happens in custom wads) and that kind of stuff. So it would be both the lockdown arenas and the ways you can get every type of resource from minor enemies that are guaranteed to be around, meaning we can't really run out of anything. There's a very distilled and frantic version during combat now, of course. One way to look at it is that every arena in Doom Eternal is like a whole level from the original Dooms, only the very essense of it, very highly concentrated and shrunk down in length. Within an arena you still run around to get to better ground, explore various passages that may contain supplies (unless you just never use pick-ups and exist solely on pinata drops). But it's kind of formulaic and isolated. Imagine if a Doom Eternal arena was stretched out to the size of a whole level, and also had keys/switches/doors in it. You might notice you are imagining the old Dooms. ;) I would've wanted it to play that way.

 

16 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

Fair enough. "Clone of Doom 2" were not the words I used though. Now who's misrepresenting :)

Hey, nobody's perfect, you know?

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1 hour ago, Super Mighty G said:

So just strip away everything and make it OG Doom with modern graphics. Got it. 

 

19 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

Fair enough. "Clone of Doom 2" were not the words I used though. Now who's misrepresenting :)

It’s close enough, the judges will allow it

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1 minute ago, Doomkid said:

It’s close enough, the judges will allow it

*slips wad of bills under the table*

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16 minutes ago, Antroid said:

I'm not disappointed by Eternal whatsoever. Hell, as I've said above, I'm having an absolute blast with it. I just can't help but think of "what if it was exactly like I'd have wanted".

In this case then, I can call this a valid argument that is not trying to force things like some others. (Maybe a bit late though, you said this before)

 

20 minutes ago, Antroid said:

minor enemies that are guaranteed to be around

I get the point. But it's the game's way of balancing resources.

 

24 minutes ago, Antroid said:

Shit, for me, Doom 3 is the doomies of all doom games. That should probably quickly create a pigeon hole for me in your head, eh? ;D

 

I like Doom 3 too, but not as a Doom game, since OG Doom isn't really horror. (It does have some very minor wth moments, but...)

But hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion unless their opinion causes harm. (Not anyone's case here though) ;D

 

28 minutes ago, Antroid said:

original Doom made a point of getting rid of the lives system after Wolfenstein 3D

Fair point, but as I said, 90s game, not precisely Doom for that matter

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2 hours ago, lazygecko said:

 

In Doom 1/2 you can have a total of 600 energy cells. In Eternal you can have a total of 250. That's well over a 100% difference. Couple this with how enemies in general are much more bullet spongy (especially if you don't feel like actively partaking in the weak point systems for heavy enemies every single time) and how ammo/resources are way, way more stratified and it's not nearly the same experience. Ammo and resources in the originals did not feel like it worked like this very explicit system of micromanagement which you actively had to pay attention to and repeatedly focus on, instead of focusing on other (more enjoyable) aspects of gameplay.

That's not true. You're leaving out the important variable here: In DE, 1 Hell Knight does the job that 20 Hell Knights would accomplish in Classic Doom. It's not equivalent.

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41 minutes ago, The Doommer said:

I like Doom 3 too, but not as a Doom game, since OG Doom isn't really horror. (It does have some very minor wth moments, but...)

But hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion unless their opinion causes harm. (Not anyone's case here though) ;D

OG Doom sure as shit was horror for me. I played it on the SNES as a kid, my already limited skills were further impaired by the port's controls and performance, and I had to beat episodes at a time due to the lack of saves. Given that I was the kind of kid that saw Ghostbusters as a purely horror movie, Doom gave me nightmares. Infrequent ones, but from time to time I'd dream of running mad in some sort of crazy marble maze from a few barons while looking for something to throw at them. I still get videogame-based nightmares from time to time, it's usually something that's quite like how I saw Doom back then. In this sense, for me Doom 3 brings back the exact way I already saw the original games, but now it's not a leap of imagination/perception anymore. The sheer atmosphere completely overpowers the facts that the game is pretty linear and you tend to swim in ammo without the need to conserve or scrounge.

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3 hours ago, The Doommer said:

If you want a game that gives you all the weapons and upgrades from the start, you might not even want to try the OG Doom.

 

Does OG Doom have skill trees and perks my man? Have I missed that? Does it have levels ups and upgrade tokens?

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2 minutes ago, JBerg said:

 

Does OG Doom have skill trees and perks my man? Have I missed that? Does it have levels ups and upgrade tokens?

No, but don't act like progression was never a thing. Games evolve.

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3 minutes ago, Mangcubus said:

No, but don't act like progression was never a thing. Games evolve.

 

They evolve sure and I'm glad you guys seem to like but it just doesn't do much for me. I find all that stuff lame.

And the progression in OG Doom was exactly to my liking: You'd just pick up in world items.

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1 minute ago, JBerg said:

 

They evolve sure and I'm glad you guys seem to like but it just doesn't do much for me. I find all that stuff lame

Okay. I think that's a bit unreasonable, tis all.

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7 minutes ago, Mangcubus said:

Games evolve.

This isn't always a good thing, though. Most changes games or game series go through aren't universally good and aren't gonna be to everyone's liking.

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5 minutes ago, Mangcubus said:

Okay. I think that's a bit unreasonable, tis all.

 

My personal opinions and preferences are unreasonable? Getting a bit personal?

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8 minutes ago, Mangcubus said:

Okay. I think that's a bit unreasonable, tis all.

I can sort of relate despite disagreeing - I think it's unreasonable how sharply many people seem to hate the platforming in DE. But I guess that's because for me platforming elements seem like a natural fit for an FPS game but RPG elements seem like tacked on padding that dilutes the gameplay.

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To be honest, it's still recognisably Doom, it's just evolved from the original and later versions, and I'd say even beyond 2016. It's a great shooter, but I can see why not everyone would like it. The jumping and dashing and the flame thing and so forth complicate the controls a bit, and I forget to use half of the tools at my command. I was also overwhelmed by the wealth of upgrade options available to me. I don't know what to choose as it may make the difference between winning or losing the campaign (as I see it) but maybe that's just me.

 

For someone's first Doom game, it sure deserves the accolades. I suppose I've yet to get used to the breakneck pace or the speed of it, but then maybe I'm too old for it. I just thought I should try it.

 

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5 minutes ago, JBerg said:

 

My personal opinions and preferences are unreasonable? Getting a bit personal?

I sense projection

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3 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

To be honest, it's still recognisably Doom, it's just evolved from the original and later versions, and I'd say even beyond 2016. It's a great shooter, but I can see why not everyone would like it. The jumping and dashing and the flame thing and so forth complicate the controls a bit, and I forget to use half of the tools at my command. I was also overwhelmed by the wealth of upgrade options available to me. I don't know what to choose as it may make the difference between winning or losing the campaign (as I see it) but maybe that's just me.

 

For someone's first Doom game, it sure deserves the accolades. I suppose I've yet to get used to the breakneck pace or the speed of it, but then maybe I'm too old for it. I just thought I should try it.

 

Who are you and what have you done with the real Foebane?

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4 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

I don't know what to choose as it may make the difference between winning or losing the campaign (as I see it) but maybe that's just me.

 

 

It's modern game design: There is no right and wrong choice, whatever you pick is going to help you get to the finish line.

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Between Classic, 3 and 16 we have already had three whole different official takes on what is a Doom game. Couple that with the spinoffs such as Resurrection, Doom RPG 1-2 and VFR and Doom can be pretty much whatever the hell it wants, as long as it involves demons and chainsawing.

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15 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

To be honest, it's still recognisably Doom, it's just evolved from the original and later versions, and I'd say even beyond 2016. It's a great shooter, but I can see why not everyone would like it. The jumping and dashing and the flame thing and so forth complicate the controls a bit, and I forget to use half of the tools at my command. I was also overwhelmed by the wealth of upgrade options available to me. I don't know what to choose as it may make the difference between winning or losing the campaign (as I see it) but maybe that's just me.

 

For someone's first Doom game, it sure deserves the accolades. I suppose I've yet to get used to the breakneck pace or the speed of it, but then maybe I'm too old for it. I just thought I should try it.

 


I think the point is to select whichever upgrades best go with whatever your playing style happens to be. For instance, I like to shoot and I kept running out of ammo, so I spent my first four Sentinel Crystals on improving my ammo capacity. That didn't bump it up as much as I would like, but it has definitely made a difference.

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20 minutes ago, JBerg said:

 

It's modern game design: There is no right and wrong choice, whatever you pick is going to help you get to the finish line.

And that's the beauty, you get to choose how you experience the game with stats you level.

the rest is up to your skill and how you use the perks you have.

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1 minute ago, jazzmaster9 said:

And that's the beauty, you get to choose how you experience the game with stats you level.

the rest is up to your skill and how you use the perks you hav.

 

This take I agree with but I guess the game's just not for me

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Have a look at the final battle with the Icon of Sin here:

 

 

It LOOKS FUCKING INTENSE!

 

I don't think I'd be able to do this, even on ITYTD! I found the Spider Mastermind hard enough in Doom 2016!

 

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32 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

Have a look at the final battle with the Icon of Sin here:

 

 

It LOOKS FUCKING INTENSE!

 

I don't think I'd be able to do this, even on ITYTD! I found the Spider Mastermind hard enough in Doom 2016!

 

 

I really love Eternal, but multiple people have already commented on the boss battles, they're one of the weaker points of the game. The game is designed perfectly for battling hordes of demons by choosing the right tool for the job, but with a singular boss enemy you don't have that part of the experience, it's just a shoot it till it dies thing with some annoyances and obstacles in-between.

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Just now, flouter said:

 

I really love Eternal, but multiple people have already commented on the boss battles, they're one of the weaker points of the game. The game is designed perfectly for battling hordes of demons by choosing the right tool for the job, but with a singular boss enemy you don't have that part of the experience, it's just a shoot it till it dies thing with some annoyances and obstacles in-between.


That is literally every boss battle in every DOOM game ever tho, lol.

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21 minutes ago, Buckshot said:


That is literally every boss battle in every DOOM game ever tho, lol.

 

But in none of them are the boss battles as tiresome as in Eternal

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33 minutes ago, flouter said:

 

But in none of them are the boss battles as tiresome as in Eternal

 

If we want to talk tiresome and physically exhausting boss fights... Let's talk Bloodborne and Dark Souls :)

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29 minutes ago, flouter said:

 

But in none of them are the boss battles as tiresome as in Eternal

 

Ehh not really. Honestly the only boss that could be deemed as tiresome would be the Doom Hunters and that is only for the sheer shock of dealing with two right after having trouble with the first one.

 

Marauder dies pretty quickly if you know the old SSG-Gauss combo, the demon summons are all fodder just so you can refill ammo if you somehow were low on those two weapons.

 

Gladiator is a pretty medium 5 minute boss fight that can be really short if you time your counters right at the first phase (which isn't hard at all as the timing is fairly lenient). His second phase is also more than enough to engage you into a hectic battle. The only heavies that can spawn are Prowlers which are only dangerous if you let them be dangerous.

 

Khan Maykr is only dangerous if you completely ignore her existence. Just pummel her with your strongest weapons and you will basically auto-win the fight. The Drones are literal free resources if you snipe their heads. 

 

Icon of Sin is only a long fight if you ironically spend more time trying to kill him than it is to balance out thinning the horde and shooting him, as if you do otherwise than those barons or whiplashes he spawns in can and will ruin your day.

 

All these fights also teach you a certain mechanic that becomes really useful in honing your own skills as a Doom player. Doom Hunters focus heavily on Dashing and resource hunting as they use up quite a bit of resources to take on directly. Marauder practices the art of combos. Gladiator practices timing and usage of heavy weapons and stagger chances. Khan practices positioning and platforming thanks to the floor is lava attack and the placement of drones and her direct attacks. Icon practices the mix of dealing with multiple different targets while focusing on the larger target at the same time (kinda like a more advanced version of the original Icon of Sin).

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