Does anyone think that DOOM 64 sucks?

2 hours ago, holaareola said:

No, but I think the map designers liked right angles way too much.  Maybe I'm just misremembering all the perpendicular architecture, but it felt conservative versus the originals.

Most maps are techbase-style so their design is mostly orthogonal room based. Personally, I'm ok with that, the one thing I would change in a couple of maps is to reduce the number of doors. Or make some of them Stay-Open.

On 3/24/2020 at 9:54 PM, Boaby Kenobi said:

I wouldn't say it's cheating but you definitely are at an advantage because Doom 64 was designed exclusively for the N64 and its controller.

You’re at a steep advantage no matter what because you’re playing an n64 game with a mouse and keyboard 

On 3/9/2020 at 4:22 PM, speed_your_feed said:

 

Do you like the new story tho? 'Cause I sure the hell don't.

Dude the story is basically hell ptsd. Also demon mom brings back demons. 

Kinda late on this, but I only really truly ran through the game on the new port, and I absolutely loved it. 

I have to say its one of the most atmospheric and mesmerising games I've ever played, and I did not mind at all the slightly slower gameplay, it felt chunkier and more deliberate. It kind of is in a lot of ways the bridge between Doom and Quake. My only complaint is the Plasma gun and BFG feel a little redundant once you got that Unmaker and one of the demon keys. Arguably all the weapons are redundant once you have all three. Also the new Lost Levels were excellent, quality over quantity I guess as though there's only 6, they're all top notch and compare favourably with the rest of the game. 

3 minutes ago, hybridial said:

Kinda late on this, but I only really truly ran through the game on the new port, and I absolutely loved it. 

 

I have to say its one of the most atmospheric and mesmerising games I've ever played, and I did not mind at all the slightly slower gameplay, it felt chunkier and more deliberate. It kind of is in a lot of ways the bridge between Doom and Quake. My only complaint is the Plasma gun and BFG feel a little redundant once you got that Unmaker and one of the demon keys. Arguably all the weapons are redundant once you have all three. Also the new Lost Levels were excellent, quality over quantity I guess as though there's only 6, they're all top notch and compare favourably with the rest of the game. 

Yeah I really think the Unmaker should have had its own ammo.  All you need is one of the Demon Artifacts and it renders the Plasma and BFG pretty much obsolete.  Two or more Demon Artifacts and you really don't need to bother with the BFG at all.  It's a bit overpowered, and its presence and use of energy cells for ammo throws off the weapon balance.

You didn't find some of the puzzles and secrets annoying?  

I think Doom 64 gets a LOT better with subsequent playthroughs though.  At its core, it has plenty of good moments that first time (or first time in a long time), but once you don't have to wander around aimlessly trying to figure out what switch does what, or solving more obscure puzzles, then it's a lot more fun.   

50 minutes ago, Devils950003 said:

You didn't find some of the puzzles and secrets annoying?  

There were times where I felt the layouts could have been better, more than once did I have to after flicking what seemed like an important switch need to go back to an area that I wouldn't have expected to be where the progression forward was. But I would say such things happen in all the campaigns I've tried. 

Doom 64s sprite work is perfect in my opinion. I mean the Doom 64 Pinky is my favorite Doom monster of all time. It soo terrifying and huge. That sinister cacodemon grin is pumped to 1000. Every monster looks better and is way more threatening.  Doom 64 does have some confusing map moments that I can see turning some people off. But these are few and far between. The story I'll admit is a bit shoehorned IMO. But it works well enough. Doom 64 is my favorite and most played Doom game and my first. So no matter what anyone says about it, I'll always have a bias towards it.

16 minutes ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

Doom 64s sprite work is perfect in my opinion. I mean the Doom 64 Pinky is my favorite Doom monster of all time. It soo terrifying and huge. That sinister cacodemon grin is pumped to 1000. Every monster looks better and is way more threatening.  Doom 64 does have some confusing map moments that I can see turning some people off. But these are few and far between. The story I'll admit is a bit shoehorned IMO. But it works well enough. Doom 64 is my favorite and most play Doom game and my first. So no matter what anyone says about it, I'll always have a bias towards it.

 

I absolutely love the monster designs! I don't think there's anything wrong with them. Some people here act like all the artwork in the original Doom games are the work of Pablo Picasso or something lol. One of my favourite redesigns is the Pain Elemental, that thing screams eldritch abomination. Something that stands out from each and every Doom game are the monsters, and the designs always have something to offer. That's one of the things about the Doom series, it has a memorable cast of baddies no matter what era.

There are a couple of instances in Doom 64 where there is a camera near a switch which shows you the door/bars/whatever important change that happen. This should have been used more often.

52 minutes ago, User Name said:

I absolutely love the monster designs! I don't think there's anything wrong with them. Some people here act like all the artwork in the original Doom games are the work of Pablo Picasso or something lol. One of my favourite redesigns is the Pain Elemental, that thing screams eldritch abomination. Something that stands out from each and every Doom game are the monsters, and the designs always have something to offer. That's one of the things about the Doom series, it has a memorable cast of baddies no matter what era.

I find the demon and imp redesigns almost cute, compared to the originals.  I do like the cacodemon and cyberdemon designs a lot.  The rest are all fine.

The new Pain Elemental is a more badass design and the Lost Souls also look better and are less bullet-spongy while being more dangerous and non-buggy. No more bumping into walls and forgetting what they are doing. And no more drifting away to the edge of the universe.

I do want to say in defense of OP, this is not the first time I've heard D64 get some negative comments. The game wasn't highly acclaimed at the time of it's release and was over-shadowed by Turok. And every one at the time was enamored with Quake, and rightfully so.  Therefore, Doom 64 was given a slew of poor or at least low grade reviews for it's reluctance to utilize a more advanced engine to keep with the times or that it's levels were "too confusing". This does not mean that everyone hated it but that most high profile reviewers just weren't into it. They were over Doom. I look back at this now and I'm glad to see that my favorite Doom is finally getting the recognition that it deserves after decades of negative press and being tossed into the shadows. It really is an overlooked masterpiece and the TRUE Doom 3. The re-release is absolutely beautiful! And who else caught onto the the homage to the D64 OST in Doom Eternal? There's a a section in one of the more ambient songs that incorporates the melody of D64's Main Menu screen.

46 minutes ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

There's a a section in one of the more ambient songs that incorporates the melody of D64's Main Menu screen

Where?

3 hours ago, VGA said:

Where?

 IDK but it's not in that video I guess. But I know it I heard when I was playing. Could be anything I mean it is only two notes. but it sounded like it to me.

4 hours ago, Dubbagdarrel said:

I do want to say in defense of OP, this is not the first time I've heard D64 get some negative comments. The game wasn't highly acclaimed at the time of it's release and was over-shadowed by Turok. And every one at the time was enamored with Quake, and rightfully so.  Therefore, Doom 64 was given a slew of poor or at least low grade reviews for it's reluctance to utilize a more advanced engine to keep with the times or that it's levels were "too confusing". This does not mean that everyone hated it but that most high profile reviewers just weren't into it. They were over Doom. I look back at this now and I'm glad to see that my favorite Doom is finally getting the recognition that it deserves after decades of negative press and being tossed into the shadows. It really is an overlooked masterpiece and the TRUE Doom 3. The re-release is absolutely beautiful! And who else caught onto the the homage to the D64 OST in Doom Eternal? There's a a section in one of the more ambient songs that incorporates the melody of D64's Main Menu screen.

 

 

I remember a couple of negative reviews back in 1997 (Jeff Gerstmann’s in particular) but most were actually pretty complimentary...sure, even some of the positive ones boiled down to “More of the same with a nice 64-bit coat of paint”, but I even remember reviews that complimented D64 for NOT straying from the original control scheme (basically not becoming some Doom/Quake hybrid).  I saw a lot of 7/10 type scores for D64.  All I knew is that the only way I wasn’t buying it immediately upon release back then was if the game had been universally panned.  

Quake never did anything for me.  Turok didn’t either...I had both for the N64.  Turok looked good intially for the time, but looking at it now, with all of that damned “hide the pop-up” fog and general lack of textures...I think D64 holds up much better.  That first Turok felt more like a tech demo in ways.  I never played the Turoks beyond...did hear lots of good things about Turok 2 though.  

I've looked at some reviews from the era, notably a Nintendo 64 magazine that reviewed all the shooters available then: Turok, Doom 64, Duke 3D, and Quake. It was kinda funny. Like, "Quake's launch on the PC was a failure thanks to Duke Nukem 3D, which is a lot more fun, Quake is boring" -- uh, really?

Funny enough, I started with Doom 2016 but decided to go back and play Doom and Doom 2 and then I got my hands on Doom 64 Retribution then later EX and eventually the 2020 re-release with Doom Eternal. I think all Doom games are good in their own respective qualities but I'd say that Doom 64 is my personal favorite in spite of the limitations it was faced with. I'd never say 64 sucked, though, it can turn people away who don't like it's darker and more sinister tone or some of the enemy designs like the Pain Elemental Which I funny enough really like. Besides that, I'd still say Doom 64 kicks ass like all the other games

4 hours ago, Brian Reilly jr. said:

Funny enough, I started with Doom 2016 but decided to go back and play Doom and Doom 2 and then I got my hands on Doom 64 Retribution then later EX and eventually the 2020 re-release with Doom Eternal. I think all Doom games are good in their own respective qualities but I'd say that Doom 64 is my personal favorite in spite of the limitations it was faced with. I'd never say 64 sucked, though, it can turn people away who don't like it's darker and more sinister tone or some of the enemy designs like the Pain Elemental Which I funny enough really like. Besides that, I'd still say Doom 64 kicks ass like all the other games

For some who didn't like D64 back in 1997 due to the "change in feel", part of the problem was that some people clearly looked at it as a sequel to Doom I/II on the PC.  It wasn't.  It was the direct sequel to PSX Ultimate Doom.  That darker, sinister tone started with PSX Doom and was carried over to the N64 (and as everyone knows, complete with many of the same exact sound FX that made their debut on PSX Doom, and Aubrey Hodges continuing what he started with more ambient horror soundtracks).  To those who were used to the PC versions (many of whom had never seen or played PSX Doom), of course D64 had to feel jarring.  To those of us who had really cut our teeth on the PSX version and were far more familiar with that, D64 felt like a completely natural progression.  As far as PC Doom goes, once I got my first taste of the PC version of Doom I, my reaction was "Huh?  What is this?"  I had heard those sound FX on Jaguar Doom, so even though I liked the PSX/D64 sounds better, the original sound FX weren't deal-breakers for me...I can live with them.  But that Prince midis definitely threw me off.  I still can't play Doom I/II with those in the background.

So I could see some reviewers who maybe didn't spend much time (if any) with PSX Doom docking D64 a point or two for not being more like the PC Dooms.  Don't agree with them, but that makes some sense.    

20 minutes ago, Devils950003 said:

 

For some who didn't like D64 back in 1997 due to the "change in feel", part of the problem was that some people clearly looked at it as a sequel to Doom I/II on the PC.  It wasn't.  It was the direct sequel to PSX Ultimate Doom.  That darker, sinister tone started with PSX Doom and was carried over to the N64 (and as everyone knows, complete with many of the same exact sound FX that made their debut on PSX Doom, and Aubrey Hodges continuing what he started with more ambient horror soundtracks).  To those who were used to the PC versions (many of whom had never seen or played PSX Doom), of course D64 had to feel jarring.  To those of us who had really cut our teeth on the PSX version and were far more familiar with that, D64 felt like a completely natural progression.  As far as PC Doom goes, once I got my first taste of the PC version of Doom I, my reaction was "Huh?  What is this?"  I had heard those sound FX on Jaguar Doom, so even though I liked the PSX/D64 sounds better, the original sound FX weren't deal-breakers for me...I can live with them.  But that Prince midis definitely threw me off.  I still can't play Doom I/II with those in the background.

 

So I could see some reviewers who maybe didn't spend much time (if any) with PSX Doom docking D64 a point or two for not being more like the PC Dooms.  Don't agree with them, but that makes some sense.    

I agree most of the MIDIs are terrible, but I think the PC sounds are much better. Don't you find the D64 weapon and monster kind of echoey, like they were all recorded from a mic that was too far away? I prefer the lift/door and pistol/chaingun sounds from D64, but that's about it.  You make a good point about the console Doom's kind of following their own progression though.

6 hours ago, Gez said:

I've looked at some reviews from the era, notably a Nintendo 64 magazine that reviewed all the shooters available then: Turok, Doom 64, Duke 3D, and Quake. It was kinda funny. Like, "Quake's launch on the PC was a failure thanks to Duke Nukem 3D, which is a lot more fun, Quake is boring" -- uh, really?

Well be fair the N64's version of Quake was a poor port but it was likely no thanks to the consoles hardware limitations.

30 minutes ago, holaareola said:

I agree most of the MIDIs are terrible, but I think the PC sounds are much better. Don't you find the D64 weapon and monster kind of echoey, like they were all recorded from a mic that was too far away? I prefer the lift/door and pistol/chaingun sounds from D64, but that's about it.  You make a good point about the console Doom's kind of following their own progression though.

Overall, I would break down my preference for sound FX like this:

Weapons:  slight edge to the PSX/N64 for most, much larger one to the PSX/N64 Plasma (hate the PC version)

Item Pickups/Doors:  PSX/N64...the PC version really sounds primitive now (though when playing Classic Doom on Switch, that doesn't take me out of the game)

Monsters:  PSX/N64...same as above, some (though not all) of the PC effects just sound primitive to me

I don't really find D64 weapons and monsters too echoey, but I kinda see what you're saying about them almost sounding like they were recorded from just a little too far away.  I wanna get through this playthrough, just so I can do it again without the wandering "What now?" aspect.  For what they levels occasionally lack in user-friendly design and layout, they make for in scenic bliss.  Love the way that this game looks.   

12 hours ago, Gez said:

I've looked at some reviews from the era, notably a Nintendo 64 magazine that reviewed all the shooters available then: Turok, Doom 64, Duke 3D, and Quake. It was kinda funny. Like, "Quake's launch on the PC was a failure thanks to Duke Nukem 3D, which is a lot more fun, Quake is boring" -- uh, really?

Quake vs Duke 3D arguments are funny to read back, as i found my old PC Zone UK, October 1996 issue:
 

Quote

''I'm going to get mailed dog shit for this but what the hell. Quake: the most important game ever? I don't think so. Technically flawless Doom clone? Hmmm, that seems more like it.

Quake is cool, Quake is spooky and atmospheric and brilliantly realised and all that, but what Quake isn't is original. Originallity is what made DOOM kick the gameplaying world in its collective soft bits and take notice. Quake favors multi-player action, fine if you have access to a network or can afford to play it over the net, tough titty otherwise.

Better than Duke Nukem? Who gives a shit? Quake is no more playable, it just looks a whole lot better and as anyone will tell you, looks aren't everything. (At least that's what my more sympathetic friends tell me.) I'm willing to wager that many people have played the shareware version and are saying to themselves: ''Okay, it looks great, but what is all the fuss about?''

5 hours ago, Avoozl said:

Well be fair the N64's version of Quake was a poor port but it was likely no thanks to the consoles hardware limitations.

It was basically GLQuake running in 320x240. It had colored lighting. It was also the only Quake Engine port to a console back then as the Saturn version does not use it.

Quake 2 for the N64 was developed with Quake 64. I am not sure if the abysmal Daikatana port also used it, but given the amount of time there was spent on it, it seems likely.

On 4/9/2020 at 8:23 AM, Devils950003 said:

some people clearly looked at it as a sequel to Doom I/II on the PC.  It wasn't.  It was the direct sequel to PSX Ultimate Doom.

Wrong, Doom 64 IS a sequel to Doom II on PC. The official Doom Wiki says it.  The only thing it got from PSX Doom was the same material as well as the same engine code (albeit more improved).

28 minutes ago, Impboy4 said:

Wrong, Doom 64 IS a sequel to Doom II on PC. The official Doom Wiki says it.  The only thing it got from PSX Doom was the same material as well as the same engine code (albeit more improved).

No, D64 obviously took its cues from PSX Ultimate Doom (which had levels from both I and II).  Like I said, many sound FX re-used from PSX Doom, with Aubrey Hodges returning to compose another haunting ambient soundtrack.  Also similar lighting and general feel (though with much more refined visuals).  Spiritually D64 is clearly continuing a re-imagining of Doom that started with the PSX version.

Quote

Does anyone think that DOOM 64 sucks?

no

42 minutes ago, Devils950003 said:

No, D64 obviously took its cues from PSX Ultimate Doom (which had levels from both I and II).  Like I said, many sound FX re-used from PSX Doom, with Aubrey Hodges returning to compose another haunting ambient soundtrack.  Also similar lighting and general feel (though with much more refined visuals).  Spiritually D64 is clearly continuing a re-imagining of Doom that started with the PSX version.

No, Doom 64 is a sequel to Doom II. It even says as much in the game's manual:

Quote

Your fatigue was enormous, the price for encountering pure evil. Hell was a place no mortal was meant to experience. Stupid military doctors: their tests and treatments, were of little help. In the end, what did it matter - it was all classified and sealed. The nightmares continued. Demons, so many Demons; relentless, pouring through.

Far Away...

The planetary policy was clear. An absolute quarantine was guaranteed by apocalyptic levels of radiation. The empty dark corridors stand motionless, abandoned. The installations sealed.

The Present...

A long forgotten relay satellite barely executing, decayed by years of bombarding neutrons, activates and sends its final message to Earth. The satellites message was horrific, from the planetary void there came energy signatures unlike anything sampled before.

The classified archives are opened. The military episodes code named "DOOM" were not actually completed. A single entity with vast rejuvenation powers, masked by the extreme radiation levels, escaped detection. In its crippled state, it systematically altered decaying dead carnage back into corrupted living tissue.

The mutations are devastating. The Demons have returned even stronger and more vicious than before. As the only experienced survivor of the DOOM episode, your commission is re-activated. Your assignment is clear: MERCILESS EXTERMINATION.

PSX Ultimate Doom had its own version of Doom II in there though.  PSX Ultimate Doom played as one long continuous game (Doom I and II, with some levels missing or shortened, and others added in)...you also had the option of playing Doom II only and skipping past PSX’s unique version of I if you wished.

Yes, if we’re arguing semantics, D64 continues off Doom II...I’m just saying it has far more in common with the PSX take than with the PC version.  So I will always consider D64 a sequel to the PSX reimagining of Doom I/II.

2 minutes ago, Devils950003 said:

PSX Ultimate Doom had its own version of Doom II in there though.  PSX Ultimate Doom played as one long continuous game (Doom I and II, with some levels missing or shortened, and others added in)...you also had the option of playing Doom II only and skipping past PSX’s unique version of I if you wished.

 

Yes, if we’re arguing semantics, D64 continues off Doom II...I’m just saying it has far more in common with the PSX take than with the PC version.  So I will always consider D64 a sequel to the PSX reimagining of Doom I/II.

I see. Yes, stylistically and in terms of mood and atmosphere. Isn't the soundtrack from Doom 64 just a straight rip from the PSX version? I didn't think Aubrey Hodges did anything new musically for 64.

11 minutes ago, Phobos Anomaly said:

 

I see. Yes, stylistically and in terms of mood and atmosphere. Isn't the soundtrack from Doom 64 just a straight rip from the PSX version? I didn't think Aubrey Hodges did anything new musically for 64.

All new tunes, but many recycled sound effects from PSX Doom to D64.  I’d say his PSX tunes on the whole are slightly better, but both soundtracks are excellent.

Oh, and a side note about PSX Ultimate Doom...because it threw all of the Doom I and II levels together as one continuous game (save for a brief intermission as I ended and II began), you were able to keep all of your weapons that you had acquired in I for  the start of II...which meant that the early levels of II were an absolute cakewalk, as you were way overpowered at that point in the game.

To not throw off the balance of the game, later when I would complete all of Doom I’s levels, I would start Doom II fresh.  

Don’t forget on the PSX version of Doom you can fight Doom II monsters in the original Doom levels. Like Chaingunners and that Pain Elemental in E1M1 or Revenants in E1M7.