Sunder - Map20 Appears, finally.

If you would have to rank levels 15-19 in order of difficulty, how you would do it?

including secret levels? I'd say, from easiest to hardest: 31, 32, 17, 15, 16, 18, 19

Hello, I just got into playing this wad with Russian Overkill but when I got to map 19, the game just froze and lagged.  I'm using GZdoom as the source port.  What is the problem?

2 hours ago, NiGHTS4life said:

Hello, I just got into playing this wad with Russian Overkill but when I got to map 19, the game just froze and lagged.  I'm using GZdoom as the source port.  What is the problem?

(G)ZDoom can't deal with maps as big as Sunder's new megamaps due to the way it's programmed. Your only option is playing them in a vanilla engine, namely PRBoom.

Map19 worked fine for me with GZDoom - maybe it's the combination of Russian Overkill and the insane monster count?

3 hours ago, ENEMY!!! said:

Map19 worked fine for me with GZDoom - maybe it's the combination of Russian Overkill and the insane monster count?

It did work without Russian Overkill.  I wanted to play it with Russian Overkill though.  The other maps worked fine.

4 hours ago, NiGHTS4life said:

It did work without Russian Overkill.  I wanted to play it with Russian Overkill though.  The other maps worked fine.

Maybe try switching to something like LZDoom? Because the author said earlier he hitted editor limits, iirc.

5 hours ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

Maybe try switching to something like LZDoom? Because the author said earlier he hitted editor limits, iirc.

Tried that, same issue.  It's Russian Overkill.

4 hours ago, NiGHTS4life said:

Tried that, same issue.  It's Russian Overkill.

Pretty much. I've tried Sunder with a few mods that increase things and it usually ends badly on the bigger maps. It's just too much. I can run 19 just fine vanilla.

9 hours ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

Maybe try switching to something like LZDoom? Because the author said earlier he hitted editor limits, iirc.

What's LZDoom? I usually stick to whatever the current GZDoom is.

6 hours ago, Archviler said:

What's LZDoom? I usually stick to whatever the current GZDoom is.

It's like GZDoom 3.0- early 4.0 but for weaker PCs.

Who has a good strategy for surviving this room in level 17 (does not include save scumming)? Also, I tested it with Zandronum and it worked fine for me. GZDoom, however, did not run well. When video capturing, it turns into a slideshow after a minute. Note that I rocket jumped over the columns to access the rooms, the ones that you normally don't access until much later in the map. The beef I have with the spider masterminds is that all they do is drain your health away more than the actual infight with the cacodemons and the pain elementals, which is why I kill the spider masterminds first before the cacodemons and the pain elementals.
 

Just finished Map19, and I'm not a fan of it. There is a Cacodemon teleporting back into the monster closet and stuck there. I don't know how this works. Also, there are 4 Arachnotrons somehow got resurrected in the early big staircase and I don't have a way to kill them unless IDCLIP. I suggest when the player hits the final switch, you should release all the blockage and let the player explore the whole city to get the remaining kills since it's very likely to have somebody stuck in somewhere.

Anyway, the final fight of 4000+ monsters is fine, and this is the most enjoyable part of the map (if there is more health/armor, it would be better). The first 2 hours (IGT, not real time) of my play just got through those small encounters. Probably I'm a really bad player, and it seems some of those have no reliable strategy, not to mention health is always short.

I did play all maps from Map15 to Map18. Although these maps are very long in general, and they usually take 1.5 ~ 2.5 hours IGT for me to finish them, I didn't feel they are overdone (at least in my standards), and I enjoyed the majority of them. However, Map19 is the first one I really feel it's overdone.

3 hours ago, mArt1And00m3r11339 said:

Snip! (Map 17 teleport fiesta room with SM towers and hallways stuffed with demons)

My strat(s) went something like this:

First part of the fight:

Second part of the fight:

Third part of the fight:

Fourth part of the fight HOO BOY:

8 minutes ago, GarrettChan said:

 However, Map19 is the first one I really feel it's overdone.

Yeah, the map is massive. I wouldn't call it overdone though, but then again I had a couple breaks during my playthrough so it didn't feel that bad.
Good luck to anyone who'll try to UV Max this beast.

6 minutes ago, WH-Wilou84 said:

Yeah, the map is massive. I wouldn't call it overdone though, but then again I had a couple breaks during my playthrough so it didn't feel that bad.
Good luck to anyone who'll try to UV Max this beast.

Maybe this is the problem. I played 6 hours straight for Map19, but I did take breaks on other maps. However, it doesn't solve the problem that I don't understand some of the fights. I guess I just have to admit I'm bad...

I have yet to play map 18, but as for 19, it  is more or less the same as what I played in 16 (without platforming).

In-game clearing time is a bit over 4 and a half hour, real time... probably close to 7-8 hours.

It starts getting rough at second level of tower 2 (mixing AV, Cacos and revenants in a room).

I don't mind fighting in cramped spaces, as long as it does not rely heavily on RNG or that number of powerful demons (such as AV and over) is balanced in proportion to other classes involved for infighting.

I sometimes got the feeling that balance was completely off, whatever the strategy or stunt you could pull off. I spent too long on die and retry for some rooms and, most of the time, it was mainly by chance that I was able to escape and not unscathed.

One thing I would like to underline might be the limited number of cell ammo in some cases. It is highly possible that I might have overused them as I don't feel at ease using RL in narrow spaces or in-between blind spots, unless thinning monsters out quite a bit firsthand.

Once you hit the red switch and get BFG, it is the good old mass slaughter stroll, no big difficulty there, but you still need to locate accurately your ammo supply points, as well as megaspheres and invul spheres.

Now, I have a question that might sound stupid, but why are 100+ monsters killed on the spot as soon as player starts?

Another couple of things that I noticed:

Player can "take shelter" in the area where the 1st Hive Mother was imprisoned, no demons can come accross, but doesn't stop fire balls and rockets from hitting you.

It is possible for player to avoid the line that triggers cybies cell opening by quickly straffing to area revealing the hidden HKs. Still possible to trigger it once you have gathered most of the HKs in front of cybies.

6 minutes ago, Kyoh1 said:

Now, I have a question that might sound stupid, but why are 100+ monsters killed on the spot as soon as player starts?

You'll notice their bodies along the way, they're here to get resurrected later on.

it's obvious my question would be stupid... Of course, it's the same as God Machine map in Sunlust.

I think my brain is messed up, I played for too long, need a break.

3 hours ago, Khaoscythe said:

 

My strat(s) went something like this:

 

First part of the fight:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1. Run to and hit switch to initiate the fight.

2. Stay in the alcove for as long as possible as spam rockets at the PE's as they spawn in. Swap to SSG to get rid of any Lost Souls that get too close (you could also use Plasma Gun but you're gonna need the cells for BFG throughout this arena encounter, especially against the inevitable Arch-Vile spawns). Utilize the rocket/cell ammo by the alcove when needed. You're gonna want to stay as far to the right of the alcove closest to the teleporter as possible, as to have the best chance of avoiding everything that comes your way. Once it gets too hairy teleport out of the alcove to the south Spider Mastermind tower.

3. Immediately BFG the SM's at the southern tower (even if they're infighting, you need them out of the way for maneuvering room while on the tower) and try not to use the Soulsphere as you're gonna need it around later. Try to stay on the tower for a bit and focus BFG spam on the floaters. Whenever the player walks towards the edges of the tower the floaters will rise up from beneath you and come into line of sight with the SM's at the northern tower. Pray the PE's don't produce too many Lost Souls as you cannot afford to burn the rocket/cell ammo around the arena on just this wave. Occasionally hop off the southern portion of the tower to replenish cell ammo (making absolutely certain that nothing will block you and cause you to fall into the lava below). Rush past any PE's/Lost Souls along the right side of the arena to the teleporter and repeat the process of killing floaters and grabbing cell ammo until all floaters are dead. The SM's may or may not die in the process, and if they don't die to the Caco/PE spam they'll most certainly die to the Rev/HK spam that happens afterward...

Note: You can choose to hide in the recently revealed hallways on the left to minimize PE line of sight and slowly dwindle their numbers, though this comes at the risk of floaters flooding into the hallways with no chance of getting out in time to replenish ammo.

 

 

Second part of the fight:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1. Hit the switch in the hallways that housed the Cacodemons. IMMEDIATELY rush to that alcove where you hit the first switch.

2. Turn around and rocket spam the Imps on the far opposite end, being careful to dodge any Revenant missiles while staying in there for as long as possible (if you stay to the right side near the teleporter the Revs that have teleported onto the southern tower cannot gain line of sight and send missiles your way.. neither can the Revs/HK's on the right side chuck anything at you.. you'll want to minimize line of sight by standing here). Dodge the Imp fireballs as well although they don't do massive damage when compared to Rev projectiles. When you get low on rockets bum rush those Imps go around the back side and get as much rocket ammo as possible, then run back to the alcove. From this alcove you can also choose to snipe the Revs/HKs to your right with rockets to decrease their numbers. Don't bother with the Revs that teleport onto the towers, although if the SM(s) are still alive on that northern tower they should be dead to the Revs by now. Do NOT use the teleporter to get to the southern tower top unless you're prepared to face a horde of Revs on the other end.. this also comes with the risk of being blocked by Imps if you choose to teleport and jump off the ledge onto the lower area where the ammo lies (hence why I stated to bum rush the Imps earlier when ammo is required).

 

 

Third part of the fight:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1. Hit the switch in the hallways that housed the Revs.

2. Spam rockets at any Mancubi that come out of the newly opened hallways. Utilize the nearby rocket ammo and the safety of the hallway you're in.

 

 

Fourth part of the fight HOO BOY:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

NOTE: Due to the way the monster closets were designed this next part is VERY VERY RNG-dependent. HK's and Arch-Viles will spawn on the teleporter textures to the west of the southern tower as well as by the alcove and atop the towers (Mancs will also spawn on the towers and HK's/Barons will be revealed from the newly opened hallways). Sometimes the AV's will teleport in almost immediately, other times they will take their sweet time and teleport in much later allowing the HK's to flood in first. This portion of the fight I do NOT enjoy for this reason alone.

1. Hit the switch in the hallways that housed the Mancubi.

2. I do one of three things here:

(A) Bum rush to the alcove area and kill the 2 AV's that teleport in (PRAY they teleport in within the first 5-10 seconds of hitting the switch), praying that the tower AV's are caught infighting with the Revs/Mancs on the way there. When it gets hairy teleport and kill the southern tower AV's ASAP. You can choose to hop down when they're dead or clear the tower completely and camp up there. You could also utilize your friend the alcove and spam rockets towards the group of HK's/Barons (and possibly revived Mancs/Caco's/Imps) and try to kill the AV's hiding amongst them.

(B) Bum rush the southern teleporter destination, PRAY the AV's of that section teleport in within the first 5 seconds, expose them to the BFG and then rush the alcove area and follow strat A praying the tower AV's don't target you at all.

(C) The riskier choice, run out of the hallway and go around the left side to where the cell ammo is under the northern tower (a wall should be seen lowering ahead). Prep the BFG and brute-force your way through the HK's/Barons until you either reach the Soulsphere or are about to run out of cell ammo then run out and grab the cell ammo, run back in and continue clearing. Stay in the hallway and kill anything that comes down the long hall leading to the southern part of the area, while being mindful of any Revs that decide to leave the northern tower and come into the hallway from behind. Also be mindful of the HK's and AV's that may get line of sight from across the chasm outside your position. If you're lucky the AV's from the southern teleporter destination won't revive too many things and make their way to you as you rocket spam them from afar. Once they're dead you can rocket spam any HK's/AV's across the chasm from the safety of the hallway until they're gone, then clean up the tower demons.

3. Hit the switch on the northern tower once everything is dead.. then leave this dreaded arena.

 

 

Thanks for the tips. I initially played that map with Boom but later on, I switched over to Zandronum because even when you use the strategies, enemies would still fall into the lava pit and you would have a hard time killing them because of the autoaim (and not to mention, they can block you without you being able to see them when moving from one alcove to another. That can be dangerous because that can land you into the pit which is death. As a result, I switched over to Zandronum so that I can look straight down and see the enemies and be able to pass over them when beneath me). I was able to beat the map without dying with TAS (slow motion) when recording a demo with Boom. It is at least doable compared to "Whispers of the Gnarled King". I also have to say that it runs better with Zandronum than with GZDoom when it comes to OpenGL.

On 4/13/2020 at 10:50 AM, Arbys550 said:

including secret levels? I'd say, from easiest to hardest: 31, 32, 17, 15, 16, 18, 19

I think level 17 is harder than level 15. I'm not a huge fan of platforming.

I don't recall anything difficult as platforming in map 17, except probably the top of the library to get BK. Same for 15 with star-shaped platforms where you need to jump from tip to tip quite accurately. But in both cases, you can teleport back and start over.

IMO, 31 is harder than 32 and 17 because you mainly fight in cramped spaces, even with less enemies, but it doesn't amount to a big difficulty gap.

6 hours ago, Kyoh1 said:

I don't recall anything difficult as platforming in map 17, except probably the top of the library to get BK. Same for 15 with star-shaped platforms where you need to jump from tip to tip quite accurately. But in both cases, you can teleport back and start over.

 

IMO, 31 is harder than 32 and 17 because you mainly fight in cramped spaces, even with less enemies, but it doesn't amount to a big difficulty gap.

With level 15, you can teleport back in some areas. Some of them have a deep pit that once you fall in, you can't get back out. With level 17, if you fall into a pit, you can't get back out. I think at this point, I would rather do a TAS demo of level 17 because beating it under normal circumstances is too stressful especially when the difficult battles have to be placed later in the maps, which I do not have the patience to do. I like long slaughter maps but not fiercely difficult. If the maps are hard, I would rather have them be short than long because I feel that I have done enough of those maps in my life time. I'm all about moderation when it comes to difficulty. I would like to say that with level 17, at least it is doable with TAS as opposed to level 16. Level 16 is not even doable with TAS. A person who tries to beat level 16 without dying (TAS or not), good luck with that because that stuff ain't happening.

9 hours ago, mArt1And00m3r11339 said:

With level 15, you can teleport back in some areas. Some of them have a deep pit that once you fall in, you can't get back out. With level 17, if you fall into a pit, you can't get back out. I think at this point, I would rather do a TAS demo of level 17 because beating it under normal circumstances is too stressful especially when the difficult battles have to be placed later in the maps, which I do not have the patience to do. I like long slaughter maps but not fiercely difficult. If the maps are hard, I would rather have them be short than long because I feel that I have done enough of those maps in my life time. I'm all about moderation when it comes to difficulty. I would like to say that with level 17, at least it is doable with TAS as opposed to level 16. Level 16 is not even doable with TAS. A person who tries to beat level 16 without dying (TAS or not), good luck with that because that stuff ain't happening.

Well, true, I should have been more precise in my statement, only in SOME parts of platforming areas are teleports (at least in 15 but I thought 17 as well).

But I think these 2 maps and especially 17 are a lot less difficult in platforming difficulty (compared to the infamous map 5 or 16).

I watched your recorded performance of a few of difficult early levels like 10 or 11 (w platforming) and you faired pretty well.

Of course, if you're only looking to max out the maps in the shortest time possible, that's another story.

16 hours ago, Kyoh1 said:

 

Well, true, I should have been more precise in my statement, only in SOME parts of platforming areas are teleports (at least in 15 but I thought 17 as well).

But I think these 2 maps and especially 17 are a lot less difficult in platforming difficulty (compared to the infamous map 5 or 16).

I watched your recorded performance of a few of difficult early levels like 10 or 11 (w platforming) and you faired pretty well.

Of course, if you're only looking to max out the maps in the shortest time possible, that's another story.

I don't inspire being the fastest player in the world. I only focus on just completing the maps. I know some people like to go crazy with the competition but I'm not about working myself to death.

Got through 19, quite impressive, mostly clever encounters without getting overly excessive given the map lenght.

The progression in hub area was ridiculously obtuse. I wandered around aimlessly for dozens of minutes, eventually even clipped through areas I've cleared just in case I've managed to get myself softlocked. This could be easily solved using 6-key progression, which is possible with boom in case you didn't know.

The claustrophobic fight with hks and 2 cybers (that can be mildly spoiled, it was mentioned in the thread before) is quite possibly the worst sunder encounter I've seen so far, because it's 100% luckbased. I've played it over and over and basically just concluded that there is nothing more to the fight other than getting lucky with cybers landing their shots as such to make the most of goats angry. I would consider making those hks stationary, unable to leave their platforms. This would add more depth to the fight, trying to live through crossfire rather than praying to squeeze through them randomly walking around.

One minor bug - sector 8593 should have height set to 896. It's one of those corpse teleporter destinations, and in case an archvile ressurects a monster teleported into it, it will be stuck inside ground forever.

15 hours ago, j4rio said:

The claustrophobic fight with hks and 2 cybers (that can be mildly spoiled, it was mentioned in the thread before) is quite possibly the worst sunder encounter I've seen so far, because it's 100% luckbased. I've played it over and over and basically just concluded that there is nothing more to the fight other than getting lucky with cybers landing their shots as such to make the most of goats angry. I would consider making those hks stationary, unable to leave their platforms. This would add more depth to the fight, trying to live through crossfire rather than praying to squeeze through them randomly walking around.

In fact, it's worse than mildly as I have made several tests on this part and this tactic does work, at best, 2/10 of the time. I might had the devil's luck to get it through on my 1st attempt.

Best strat I came up with so far is to activate opening of cells for HKs and cybies and immediately run to the alcove on the right with RL ammo box.

In most cases, you might end up dead or with very low health from cybies rockets splash damage, but if you have health and armor above 120%, you might survive and turn the fight around.

In general, it's better to get from one room to another with the least damage possible and save the soul/mega sphere for after the fight. Especially area staging a big fight relying on luck.

Another fight I had a hard time with is another room with HKs and one Cybie (after the fight with imps teleporting right up to your face while you were shooting rockets on Barons and HKs).

Issue here is that the door revealing cybie is opening slower than the HK's and he does not immediately land his attacks on you. Meanwhile, HKs have plenty of time to spread all over the small room (even more claustrophobic as you said), reducing your possible escaping routes. Even corners and alcoves containing soul sphere and blue armor cannot fully protect you from the attacks.

On 4/10/2020 at 1:07 PM, Krull said:

Got stuck on the staircase fight near the beginning, playing with the latest GLBoom - the wall(s) won't lower, and there doesn't seem to be a switch anywhere. I didn't want to open it up in DoomBuilder and spoil the map, but I assume this is a complevel issue with voodoo dolls? What is the compatibility level for this, anyway?

What level are you talking about? The -complevel for the maps is -complevel 9.

On 4/13/2020 at 10:50 AM, Arbys550 said:

including secret levels? I'd say, from easiest to hardest: 31, 32, 17, 15, 16, 18, 19

I'm a little curious. I wonder if you watched me play through level 15.

Edit: Never mind, I already shared my video here.

Another thing I noticed:

On the last level of one of the tower, there are 3 different kinds of demons (6 revs, 1 hive mother and a pack of HKs in the left corner).

You can shoot them without having them being wary of your presence as long as you stay on the lift.

Not cheesing the fight much, but it gives you free space and widens your escaping route.

I completed level 17 (non-TAS) in one life. I will have a video of it up at some point in the future. I've learned that you are supposed to save the cell packs near the entrance for the arch-vile fights, so I killed several of the floaters near the exit and let the spider mastermind take care of some. This is when you are at the alcove section with the two towers.