[FINAL RELEASE] Refracted Reality

2 hours ago, pagb said:

MAP03: The start is though. If I didn't resort to the secret blue armor and plasma gun below de bridge, I don't know how many tries would it take me to complete the level (no saves)

Watching many people play this now (you included) I have significantly reduced ammo availability until near the end, so if you want to go back and clear shit up you can. I also included more translucent/lower HP monsters to make it a bit easier on the cliffs. Watching people take 20 years to peg shit off distant cliffs when I want you to run through the level is painful, almost as painful as the choice people make to slog through that willingly, my god.

Edit: I quickly threw together a sloppy run of how I more or less envisioned it to be played

13 hours ago, Decay said:

Watching many people play this now (you included) I have significantly reduced ammo availability until near the end, so if you want to go back and clear shit up you can. I also included more translucent/lower HP monsters to make it a bit easier on the cliffs. Watching people take 20 years to peg shit off distant cliffs when I want you to run through the level is painful, almost as painful as the choice people make to slog through that willingly, my god.

I get it... but when I play doom is for killing, not running past 60% of the monsters. If I wanted that, I'd speedrun xD... so I don't share it. You should also understand that in this level pack, you aren't always allowed to go back to clean shit, so you can't take your backtracking moment for granted... Which is also the most boring part of a level. And moving the ammo until the end is just going to puzzle players, making them think that they missed a room with ammo or something. The weak sniper monsters are a good touch though.
EDIT: Having watched your gameplay in full... Absolutely no one approaches a new, unknown level like that.

There is a middle point between skipping 60% of the enemies and and almost speedrunning your own level (and @Decay you can do that because you know the layout by memory, most people can't play like that on the first run!), and doing a slow 100% kills, 100% secrets run. I think most people are in that middle point.

7 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

There is a middle point between skipping 60% of the enemies and and almost speedrunning your own level (and @Decay you can do that because you know the layout by memory, most people can't play like that on the first run!), and doing a slow 100% kills, 100% secrets run. I think most people are in that middle point.

I agree. I'd like to ask whether it's possible to do a normal run like that without finding a single secret? If the answer to that question is no, the design needs to change.

5 minutes ago, Joshy said:

I agree. I'd like to ask whether it's possible to do a normal run like that without finding a single secret? If the answer to that question is no, the design needs to change.

Since I tested the map prior to the release of this set to the public, I can assure you the map is perfectly doable without any of the secrets, including fast play.

So I mentioned in an earlier post that my laptop is having trouble running some of these maps and I've now encountered my first three crashes as of the other day, two of which were trying to play through Chromabyss (once wandering the maze and just above fighting the archvile/hell knights in the corner metal structure). On my third playthrough I was able to finish without another crash. I activated the first archvile trap in the open yellow void area with the two Cyberdemons in Ambientium, and had a crash while the archvile was running around above me. As I've described in an earlier thread, these crashes consist of the screen going into a hard freeze and staying locked, unalieviated by time waited for unfreezing. I have a theory its a form of lag so intense it overwhelms the system (as I see lag in these maps with effects like flowing water sometimes), but I don't know anything about computing power, so I can't make a very educated guess. I am running this on a Toshiba Satellite C55, with Intel Core i5200U CPU and 8 gigs RAM. Several years old, and reliable for some more "modern" Wads (like Project Brutality and Winter's Fury), but severe lagging on Paradise, crashes with Pirate Doom, Golden Souls 2, and others.

So, given the fact that this Wad is quite amazing and we have other graphically intensive Wads heading our way later this year (Age of Hell and Elementalism), what sort of specs do I need to be able to running this comfortably? Should I update the video card or drivers in my existing laptop or get a newer system? And given that some hardware can run modern games comfortably (see Pabg's discussion of Map 9 vs. Doom Eternal; this won't run 2016 at all), how can I know my system can handle these fancy Wads vs. "cutting edge" releases? I wanted to ask in this thread, since obviously the creators of these maps know what hardware they're using to build and run their own high-end products. Thank you for any advice.

3 hours ago, pagb said:

I get it... but when I play doom is for killing, not running past 60% of the monsters. If I wanted that, I'd speedrun xD... so I don't share it. You should also understand that in this level pack, you aren't always allowed to go back to clean shit, so you can't take your backtracking moment for granted... Which is also the most boring part of a level. And moving the ammo until the end is just going to puzzle players, making them think that they missed a room with ammo or something. The weak sniper monsters are a good touch though.
EDIT: Having watched your gameplay in full... Absolutely no one approaches a new, unknown level like that.

When I tested all RR's maps for the first time, this is the general approach I took. Ignore what I can and proceed, unless killing everything was necessary to open a door or something. It's the approach I take to any map I'll play, unknown or not. Taking a slow methodological approach is a snoozefest, and the couple people I asked to playtest indicated there was nothing challenging about the map, thus playing it in a fast fashion is no problem. Granted, I was also told I risk boredom traps but I thought "who is actually going to waste their time killing these with the shotgun when they can move on?" Turns out a lot of people, which shows me today's favoured kind of play rather and a lack of knowledge on my part. This is a difficult thing for me to address but probably less health on some of the monsters is the best answer for me. I could put ammo a little bit ahead perhaps rather than at the end and see how that pans out.

Yes you can do it without finding a secret, and in the next version it will be significantly easier in terms of available health, particularly going into the last area (added a megasphere before the last door). I did the secrets mostly to show where they were because few people were getting them.

@666shooter for me, the hub and map09 are the only maps with significant lag. I play with a capped framerate @ 35 and on a laptop from 2013. Intel i3-3120M CPU @2.50 Ghz 8 gb DDR3 ram. GZDoom legacy version 3.7.2, windowed mode at 800x600 (I've always played windowed mode but I've heard a lot of people hate that).

24 minutes ago, Decay said:

This is a difficult thing for me to address but probably less health on some of the monsters is the best answer for me. I could put ammo a little bit ahead perhaps rather than at the end and see how that pans out.

 

Yes you can do it without finding a secret, and in the next version it will be significantly easier in terms of available health, particularly going into the last area (added a megasphere before the last door). I did the secrets mostly to show where they were because few people were getting them.

I think this is a bit of a complex issue...

If you reduce the health of some things, then it will seem even more as though players are actually supposed to kill what's there on sight. While it makes life easier for "completionists", it will also deviate further from the idea that the map wants for players to keep moving, kill only what's necessary, and move again. Likewise, if you make firepower more available early on, then the impression of "kill and then move on" will be stronger as well. Basically, the easier it is for people to take on everything in whichever way they prefer, the less likely it will be that the map is played as intended.

In all due honesty, not every map needs to cater to everybody's tastes (as if that were possible to begin with), or live up to some arbitrary standard, regardless of how old said standard is. As far as I'm concerned, if you want players to keep moving and kill only what is absolutely necessary, see if you can make it such that things respawn a while after being killed, regardless of difficulty (Unless some thing is used as a trigger for a script). If that's not in the cards, but you want to keep the core idea of the map intact, then the areas in which people are supposed to play it especially fast need to made harder to such a degree that playing it fast is the most viable option, if not the only viable option.

Personally, I think a script that respawns or "replaces" things, and loops whenever a replacement is killed, might be pretty cool, but I don't know complex such a script would be, if it is meant to work for the map at large. Writing a new script for each individual thing you want to respawn might be quite a hassle... But maybe it's not even necessary to have it work for all things in the map? Perhaps being selective about the things that will keep coming back no matter what could already help a great deal.

Ultimate I guess the question is "cater to people you didn't really want to cater to?" or "keep the idea behind the map intact while probably alienating the completionists?". :P

1 hour ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Personally, I think a script that respawns or "replaces" things, and loops whenever a replacement is killed, might be pretty cool, but I don't know complex such a script would be, if it is meant to work for the map at large. Writing a new script for each individual thing you want to respawn might be quite a hassle... But maybe it's not even necessary to have it work for all things in the map? Perhaps being selective about the things that will keep coming back no matter what could already help a great deal

It's not difficult to make a script for that but would be tedious to tag almost all things or just the necessary monsters.

But, Decay's map have enough ammo and health either for completionists or just to run the hell out of it and do the map in less than 6 minutes ingame with some saving help (which I managed to do once). Just that trying to kill everything is more time consuming and that depends of the player, which is fine I guess

Just make spawn Cyberdemons when reaching specific points and don't give PG or BFG, that's a good way to make people move their asses :P

This mentality here is what's wrong with the community and it's so prevalent it's actually very sad.

11 hours ago, pagb said:

I get it... but when I play doom is for killing, not running past 60% of the monsters. If I wanted that, I'd speedrun xD... so I don't share it. You should also understand that in this level pack, you aren't always allowed to go back to clean shit, so you can't take your backtracking moment for granted... Which is also the most boring part of a level. And moving the ammo until the end is just going to puzzle players, making them think that they missed a room with ammo or something. The weak sniper monsters are a good touch though.
EDIT: Having watched your gameplay in full... Absolutely no one approaches a new, unknown level like that.

You can speedrun, there's nothing wrong with that. The map has improvements made potentially for RC2 to help regarding certain sections when you go back to them but still, encouraging player to fight some battles later is by no means not doom. It tests to see if you're smart or stupid. Just go back to that section once you beat many other sections, easy as that. In fact those sections become super easy once you beat them.

I saw the monsters on the cliffs and I immediately realized you can't take all of that on with just a shotgun and tried to get the hell out of there. AND I didn't find the blue armor at start to boot. So yeah, not everyone, definitely no. Enforcing different playstyles on players IS A GOOD THING MORE PEOPLE SHOULD BE DOING instead of being discouraged from... If you want to 100% this one you'll just have to accept you're going to have to work harder and that's that. Not all maps are supposed to be easy to 100% and you should know this doing that A LOT by now...

Some bugs:

in Ravage in the chasm area there's a section under the bridge at the cliffside with broken/absent geometry - you can falll there and not die, being stuck forever.

In Nexus - the door before the exit got closed right before me and I couldn't find a way to progress. My guess it was going to release Archviles, but I already triggered that encounter and killed them before triggering this sequence, couldn't find way to progress for 10 minutes, nocliped after trhat.

In Per Nox ad Astra in the final confrontation one of the monster waves didn't trigger and they didn't spawn, essentially locking the progress. Had to noclip into their holding pen and trigger them that way to progress. 

On 4/27/2020 at 9:33 AM, DwarfCleric said:

GZDoom bad wahhh

Bringing your port drama to random threads isnt going to change anything. Sorry but you are wasting your time.

Get a better computer and stop relying on your toaster.

On 4/28/2020 at 11:55 PM, pagb said:

It was a very long level. hate them. The area with the two cibbies was the main offneder, felt a bit uncomfortable to fight on.

Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it! I am a fan of long levels so I guess that can't be helped lol. And yeah, that area with the two Cybers is one that can be really punishing depending on how you play it. I think a lot of people will get to that point in the map and be tired, so they might not think carefully about how to handle it. That's a problem with the map length and also with some players, since I know there's a good way of tackling it if you take your time.

Ran into a visual glitch in MAP02 - guessing there are some "duplicate" vertices too close together here that are causing this.

Finished it. I played it with Colorful Hell Mod which suit really well with Refracted Reality's atmosphere.

I think MAP02 is the best one of the set with great scenery, design and game play. MAP08 and 32 have great looking and atmosphere. 

Unfortunately, I found many maps a bit confusing to play. Especially, maps with single color where everywhere look almost the same. Maybe you should highlight an important area with slightly different color shade to help player navigate.

@leodoom85 Just finished "Duplexity" earlier this evening, and I just wanted to thank you for that amazing map. The architecture, the reverse color-theming of the areas for the two keycards, and the trick with the BFG were all hallmarks of a delightful experience. It was, like all the other maps in this set, a true feast for the eyes, and a treat on the gameplay front as well. I played on HMP and found the combat to be nearly perfect- challenging and engaging without ever becomming frustrating, keeping me engaged the entire time and encouraging me to keep exploring. The library section was probably my favorite; I liked how you opened up the hallways as the player progresses towards the swithes on the yellow half of the map. I only managed to find one secret, with the Berserk pack, but I am generally terrible at these things. I really enjoyed the use of windows and the occassional outdoor section to keep us viewing that gorgeous skybox as well.

Looking forwards to the rest of this Wad and more from these mappers as well. Great job everyone.

1 hour ago, 666shooter said:

Looking forwards to the rest of this Wad and more from these mappers as well. Great job everyone.

You'll have a good time as well for the rest of the maps.

11 hours ago, leodoom85 said:

You'll have a good time as well for the rest of the maps.

I certainly have been. Every map feels very distinct and has a unique playstyle and identity, so its fun just trying the next one to see what sort of theming and combat variations will be featured.

So... this is a little embarrassing. I finished the rest of the maps and am now stuck at the end of Nexus (Map 32) thanks to the gates. Love the Midi here, enjoyed the map, but how do I leave? xD

Edit: I replayed the map and it lowered for me the second time after I killed the archviles, but for some reason it remained locked during that first run. Is that supposed to happen? Is there a linedef or something I missed?

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/613336263

Last maps played and some final thoughts. This is easily a 9.5 out of 10. Although it sounds like I went hard on Ravage, that was not my intent. It is a really well-designed map. The maps done in this video is Paradigma, the secret level and the boss level. One thing my chat said is that the boss should have been harder. Personally, I agree and disagree. I know how sadistic some mappers can get so I would rather avoid that as a criticism as the boss was a good balance. But I did do it blind save less. 

On 5/5/2020 at 10:07 PM, 666shooter said:

So... this is a little embarrassing. I finished the rest of the maps and am now stuck at the end of Nexus (Map 32) thanks to the gates. Love the Midi here, enjoyed the map, but how do I leave? xD

 

Edit: I replayed the map and it lowered for me the second time after I killed the archviles, but for some reason it remained locked during that first run. Is that supposed to happen? Is there a linedef or something I missed?

I think I mentioned it in my post - there's a bug, or rather an oversight in the scripting - the barrier supposed to raise as you approach it and release the archviles, then lower when you kill them all, however the archviles are released before you approach the barrier, so you can kill them first.

Then when you approach exit, the barrier will raise, but won't be lowered since you already killed the archviles.

23 minutes ago, Sinael said:

I think I mentioned it in my post - there's a bug, or rather an oversight in the scripting - the barrier supposed to raise as you approach it and release the archviles, then lower when you kill them all, however the archviles are released before you approach the barrier, so you can kill them first.

Then when you approach exit, the barrier will raise, but won't be lowered since you already killed the archviles.

Okay, I see. Sorry if I missed that post.

9 hours ago, I_Punch_Demons said:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/613336263

Last maps played and some final thoughts. This is easily a 9.5 out of 10. Although it sounds like I went hard on Ravage, that was not my intent. It is a really well-designed map. The maps done in this video is Paradigma, the secret level and the boss level. One thing my chat said is that the boss should have been harder. Personally, I agree and disagree. I know how sadistic some mappers can get so I would rather avoid that as a criticism as the boss was a good balance. But I did do it blind save less. 

I've got to say an easier but very memorable boss fight was a much better balanced approach here than trying to make it a drawn-out, overpowered tank of a final boss, a trap I've seen too many otherwise good mapsets fall into, and depending on how bad it is, it can sometimes ruin the whole set. I enjoyed this fight outside of having a lot of trouble using the jump pads, so I'm thankful to the designers those weren't mandatory to finish. Also, I need to mention how nice it is to have a health bar for a bossfight, so I can understand how much damage I'm actually doing and how close I am to victory.

And Paradigma was an absolutely amazing map, one of my favorites in the set. If a map is really good, I'm happy if it keeps going, and every encounter here kept things fresh and exciting without ever feeling like padding to make the map lengthier. A gem of a level.

13 hours ago, I_Punch_Demons said:

Although it sounds like I went hard on Ravage, that was not my intent. It is a really well-designed map.

Honestly I like it when people give critical feedback or criticize any of my maps in some way, so long as there is reasoning behind the criticism. Getting only positive remarks is actually not useful, and doesn't give incentive to change/try other things. Feedback is a learning experience and let's me reflect on how I could do things differently. I know it's style is not going to be up some people's alley, that's okay, everybody has playstyles they like, but even if it isn't, offering feedback is still valuable to me.

2 minutes ago, Decay said:

Honestly I like it when people give critical feedback or criticize any of my maps in some way, so long as there is reasoning behind the criticism. Getting only positive remarks is actually not useful, and doesn't give incentive to change/try other things. Feedback is a learning experience and let's me reflect on how I could do things differently. I know it's style is not going to be up some people's alley, that's okay, everybody has playstyles they like, but even if it isn't, offering feedback is still valuable to me.

I appreciate the civility, I know you had vision going into Ravage and I didn't want to compromise that vision when reviewing. While well designed it is one of the few maps intended to be played in a way that avoids encounters. Which was a bit of a jarring realization. Going back and playing properly I see how it flows easier that way. But I will say it contrasts the rest of the mapset for this reason which is why I spent a decent amount of time talking about that map. But at the same time it had really high highs like that last section with the glass busting in and that final battle. I think its not bad but way different than expected. 

Why you guys dont use zscript instead of ACS?

There are some ways which can increase performance in it, like "deactivate" light sources which too far away from player or cache some effects actors to reuse them later and save time for garbage collecting and memory allocation.

17 minutes ago, Kronecker–Capelli said:

Why you guys dont use zscript instead of ACS?

There are some ways which can increase performance in it, like "deactivate" light sources which too far away from player or cache some effects actors to reuse them later and save time for garbage collecting and memory allocation.

Questions.

1.- Which version of GZDoom are you using.

2.- In which maps you have problems?

3.- Does your PC specs are up to it?

If I were a coder, sure I'd convert stuff to ZScript but I'm just a mapper. Also, scaling down the resolution can increase your framerate, as well as deactivating GZDoom features like bloom and other stuff. Changing the amount of particles and the type of particles also helps (smooth particles affects the performance a bit more than square or round particles)

I dont have problems with FPS. In some areas it drops to around 30, but thats because of portals and map complexity, which create problems for BSP renderer. And even than it still playable FPS, at least for me. What I meant is, you can add more effects to maps without impacting performance. Or even disable all effects at all, for those who have computer from stone age.
 

12 hours ago, leodoom85 said:

Also, scaling down the resolution can increase your framerate

Actually its far much better to run Gzdoom in windowed mode, less pixels to draw. Plus, most nowadays monitors have some problems with resolution smaller than monitor default/native.
 

Unfortunately I have to join the problems-with-Ravage club, pretty much exclusively due to the final fight. I don't even know what I was doing wrong. I get how all the enemies individually affect the fight, but it just seems like there was so much stuff going on that it only takes a few seconds of things going wrong to turn into a nightmare. Things were so tight that when I actually beat it, the health pickups were almost superfluous. They only needed to be there for the Masterminds. Otherwise, if you make enough mistakes to need them, you're not gonna win the fight anyways.

The only specific things I can really point to are the secret, and the extra cell ammo. I would never have found the secret myself, and I can't imagine what would possess somebody to check that spot in the middle of a fight. It's just too deceptive for how much that changes the fight. The extra cell ammo is horribly dangerous to get, and if you don't have the secret, getting to it without already having a bunch of cell ammo is just rolling the dice.