Dealing with artists that do awesome works, yet aren't likable as persons themselves.

Woody Allen and Morgan Freeman both seem perverty (not a word) to me, but that doesn't affect my love for their movies (and narrations). Like Michael Jackson might have been an awful human being, but I still hum along with his music. 

4 minutes ago, Gustavo6046 said:

All human beings are assholes, it's just there is both the scale of assholery, and the scale of others' awareness of this assholery, and also to some extent the self-awareness of assholery.

I wouldn't say assholes, but yeah, everyone has a sort of dark side (just look at Emperor Palpatine) and just let those people be that way if it isn't affecting you. 

19 hours ago, lazy91geek said:

Another aikido fan, I see? (s)

 

I dunno. I'm more willing to support an artist who has said shitty things over an artist who has done shitty things. Maybe that's a gross oversimplification. That's how I am though.

I am, too. A person can say shitty things and i can over look it. It's when they put those shitty things into practice i draw the line, especially when it's encouraged or if they otherwise get away with it. Seagal acted like an ass and it pretty much borked his career, so I think he's paid his dues.

I call it "the Yngwie factor". 

I mean Yngwie is just a dick, he's not morally reprehensible or anything. Dickheads I'm OK with, because every artist is a dick at some level (Metallica is one of my favorite bands). 

People enjoy many other things in life other than art, but because artists are portrayed and sold as "idols" by the industry, their opinions/lifestyles become very important for the consumer.

this is a actually a interesting question, specially for a left-leaning black metal fan as my self. The BM scene is filled with hate spewing people, the better known example being of course Varg, from Burzum, but also Famine from Peste Noir, and all the countless NSBM (yes, that means nazi black metal) bands.

 When it comes down to music I think I'll be more than happy to pirate something from someone with views I hate (disagree is not a word strong enough in some cases) but I would never buy merch or albums from them. Even if that means that they will eventually stop making music I like.  

I take a lot of the accusations of horribleness with a grain of salt, personally. If it's blatantly obvious someone is a scumbag I do find it hard to separate that from their art I have to admit, but there's a scale and if the art is particularly enjoyable I'll still probably partake, I'll just make sure it in no way supports them financially.

4 hours ago, kalaeth said:

this is a actually a interesting question, specially for a left-leaning black metal fan as my self. The BM scene is filled with hate spewing people, the better known example being of course Varg, from Burzum, but also Famine from Peste Noir, and all the countless NSBM (yes, that means nazi black metal) bands.

 When it comes down to music I think I'll be more than happy to pirate something from someone with views I hate (disagree is not a word strong enough in some cases) but I would never buy merch or albums from them. Even if that means that they will eventually stop making music I like.  

Well Graveland, Nokturnal Mortum, and Goatmoon are all good honestly :p .

Funny thing is, that the first two actually did bury the shitty part from their views as time went on, but they sure didn't hide from it on the older albums. Take "The Call of Aryan Spirit" from NeChrist for instance - ye it's literally what you'd expect it to be:

And it was even more brutal in some of Varggoth's former projects, such as "Aryan Terrorism" - gee, I wonder what that band was about. But like I said, Varggoth actually did make an effort to distance himself from these crappy views over time and stopped being interested in nationalism too, so much so he stopped getting involved in politics altogether.

I'm not too sure about Darken's story though, but I am reasonably confident he distanced himself from the crappier views he held once as well from what I've seen in various interviews.

19 hours ago, Maximum Matt said:

I call it "the Yngwie factor". 

That's it.   You've released the focking fury!   YOU'VE RELEASED THE FOCKING FURY!!  Fagettaboutit!

LMAO!!  Just remember, when it comes to shred guitar, there's the right way, the wrong way.....

...And the Yngwie.

I think refusing to separate the art from the artist is like a perverse form of idolatry itself. Acting as though a creator of art you enjoy is some sort of infallible deity is the prerequisite to worrying when they fall short of this. Everyone is human, even people making art you enjoy. You have to have forgotten this in order to worry about the individual falling short of perfection.

its probably better to seperate the artist from the art for the sake of enjoyment, however thats very difficult depending on the artist actions or if they express their negative traits in the art itself. Another point can be made that artist are people too and people are only human. Everyone does bad things and forms bad habits/bad personality traits from time to time, especially when young and arrogant/egotistical.

H.P Lovecraft the father of modern cosmic horror inspired an entire generation with his work. However his early works were also incredibly racist and degrading to minorities. This can be attributed to the times and enviroment he lived in, however that same excuse can be used on anyone whos ever done or said a bad thing. in his later works near the end of his life he actually laments at how unfair he was towards those of different race and voiced displeasure at his own racial sentiments and past actions. Does that absolve him of racism? No. Does it show character growth as a genuine human? Yes.

So yeah, if an artist is acting like a total douchbag its fair to hang that over their heads and dislike their work for it. Later in life if they mature somewhat they may realize to some degree how much of a dick they were and apologize for it. Some do, most dont.

I take the stance that if the art is good, the actions of the artist shouldn't impact the enjoyment too much, however, if the artist is particularly a prick it can bleed through and lower the enjoyment factor. Even then i try to take into account everybody is human and has made mistakes/ devloped negative traits. artist and historical figures get the worst deal because they're held accountable for shitty thoughts and actions along with the good things they contributed forever cemented in time and history.  While the average nobodies like you and me, our actions and thoughts get to fade like dust in the wind. in 100 years or so, give or take.

Don't believe the hype. Most works of art aren't "made" by the single artist associated with them in any meaningful sense, although we're often encouraged to interpret them that way. Steve Jobs didn't personally make the iPhone, Ronald McDonald didn't actually make your Big Mac, and your favorite artist is probably somewhere on that spectrum of involvement. This is obviously true for most music and films, but basically no less true in the case of more apparently solitary media like painting and poetry (and even one-man black metal bands!). Everyone's part of a scene and enmeshed in the social processes that create works of art. Whether the name on the tin is a rapist/pedophile/mouse-look-on-the-Icon-of-Sin-player is not necessarily more morally consequential than whether the same is true of the recording engineer, director of photography, janitor, etc. that was also importantly involved in the whole production (maybe more so than the ostensible "artist"!). 

That said, I think there's some legitimate moral calculation that can and maybe should be made when you're supporting an artist's life and career in a material way. Like I love Burzum's music but I try to avoid giving Varg any streaming money, which he would likely reinvest in supporting his terrible racist posting and possibly even concrete white nationalist organizing. (That said, I don't sweat it too much, I mean music is not exactly a lucrative field.) I think there are similar good arguments for not supporting filmmakers and producers who are known or likely predators, though the argument can get tricky when you consider that every field of production, cultural or otherwise, is to some degree predatory and exploitative. Everyone who has bought literally anything from a multinational corporation has probably, unintentionally, contributed to some asshole's Little St. James Epic Weekend party fund. So I try to look at it from a harm reduction approach rather than from the angle of pursuing moral purity in cultural consumption, which seems like a fool's goal imho.

On 5/11/2020 at 4:24 PM, seed said:

Funny thing is, that the first two actually did bury the shitty part from their views as time went on, but they sure didn't hide from it on the older albums. Take "The Call of Aryan Spirit" from NeChrist for instance - ye it's literally what you'd expect it to be:

The art, in this case music (such as), is merely a wrapper for their hate. A nice package complete with little red ribbon so they get to spread their message and get you to listen to it while otherwise you wouldn't want to do that.  At this point, we're far beyond "this artist is an asshole" territory and you should act accordingly.

2 hours ago, Mordeth said:

The art, in this case music (such as), is merely a wrapper for their hate. A nice package complete with little red ribbon so they get to spread their message and get you to listen to it while otherwise you wouldn't want to do that.  At this point, we're far beyond "this artist is an asshole" territory and you should act accordingly.

Precisely.

Thankfully though, not all of them are beyond shitheads like this (or used to be in this case, at least). Varg Vikernes never advertised his views in his music for instance, so it's definitely possible - unless the sole existence of your project is to spread shitty, hateful messages, in which case the project is merely a wrapper, as you nicely put it.

I like Phil Spector's production work. Phil Spector was convicted of second-degree murder in 2009 and remains in jail to this day. No, this is not the same as an artist whose hate or whatever actually has an effective vector to end up in their music (well, the specific primary vector for that is lyrics).

I try to separate the art from the artist but in practice it's really not easy for me.  It also depends on the art form.  I love Megadeth even though I think Mustaine has some pretty horrible opinions.  But those are his opinions and rarely come across explicitly in his lyrics.  Ultimately, I feel comfortable (ish) that his views have little negative impact on the world.

However, I used to really love the film Android starring Klaus Kinski.  Then, when I read he repeatedly sexually abused his child I couldn't enjoy watching him 'entertain' me.  His evil behaviour totally tainted my experience.

So, for me, the 'level' of heinousness and the abstraction of the artist from the art are huge factors.

Following on from that, I suppose the older the art/ist is the easier it is to accept their 'shortcomings' as people and their .  For instance it's much easier to accept Bach's art than that of, say, R Kelly. (quality notwithstanding).

On mardi 12 mai 2020 at 5:19 PM, Tom_The_Dank_Engine said:

H.P Lovecraft the father of modern cosmic horror inspired an entire generation with his work. However his early works were also incredibly racist and degrading to minorities. This can be attributed to the times and enviroment he lived in, however that same excuse can be used on anyone whos ever done or said a bad thing. in his later works near the end of his life he actually laments at how unfair he was towards those of different race and voiced displeasure at his own racial sentiments and past actions. Does that absolve him of racism? No. Does it show character growth as a genuine human? Yes.

Lovecraft was clinically xenophobic, in that he was legitimately terrified of people who looked or sounded different from what he was used to growing up. That went beyond ordinary racism and well into pathology. It's not a question of the time and environment he lived in, because other people who knew him (and who were just as bigoted as you'd expect) thought he had a problem.

Just look at all the cultists and hybrid monsters and stuff in his stories. It's hard not to read that as the work of someone with a paranoid fear that anything he doesn't understand must be evil, barbaric, and sinister.

For this topic, I'll submit the Doom 3DO soundtrack. They're pretty great arrangements of the MIDI tracks, right? Well don't look too much into the main guy behind them because he's really horrible.

John K., creator of Ren and Stimpy, is a child molester, which I of course abhore... but the art he created with that show is too potent for me to not watch it.

3 hours ago, Gez said:

Lovecraft was clinically xenophobic, in that he was legitimately terrified of people who looked or sounded different from what he was used to growing up. That went beyond ordinary racism and well into pathology. It's not a question of the time and environment he lived in, because other people who knew him (and who were just as bigoted as you'd expect) thought he had a problem.

 

Just look at all the cultists and hybrid monsters and stuff in his stories. It's hard not to read that as the work of someone with a paranoid fear that anything he doesn't understand must be evil, barbaric, and sinister.

 

 

 

For this topic, I'll submit the Doom 3DO soundtrack. They're pretty great arrangements of the MIDI tracks, right? Well don't look too much into the main guy behind them because he's really horrible.

Other than being a shitty software dev lead, what would you describe as horrible?

29 minutes ago, GoatLord said:

Other than being a shitty software dev lead, what would you describe as horrible?

I have read that the Randy Scott formerly of Art Data Interactive is the same Randy Scott as the one in this. I'm not entirely sure it's true (there are a lot of Randy Scotts out there after all) but it's plausible and it goes way beyond being merely scummy and incompetent.

Broke: Cancelling HP Lovecraft because of his racism

Woke: Cancelling HP Lovecraft because modern existential philosophy kicks "the terror of being alone in an uncaring universe" to the curb and laughs at it. 

But seriously, if you want cosmic horror without the 19th-20th century upper-middle class white boy baggage, I recommend Delta Green.

43 minutes ago, Gez said:

I have read that the Randy Scott formerly of Art Data Interactive is the same Randy Scott as the one in this. I'm not entirely sure it's true (there are a lot of Randy Scotts out there after all) but it's plausible and it goes way beyond being merely scummy and incompetent.

Not only does the age and picture match, but there's a game music preservation wiki featuring the mugshot from your link. That's nuts!

Depends. I feel like there's a difference between, say, having extreme views on race and being a child molester. One is deeply saddening, the other is grotesque. One I can overlook and not judge the art by the artist, the other I just can't enjoy anymore.

Ah, well Rurouni Kenshin(Samurai x) creator turned out be pedophile and I ever since feel so conflicted about his work... How such people can speak about forgiveness, friendship, kindness and yet to be so fucked up in the head and commit such terrible atrocities? Entire franchise was ruined for me and I don't feel enjoyment anymore. I guess, less you know about some things, the better you will feel. 

On 5/9/2020 at 8:21 PM, P41R47 said:

In games, i don't read much about the authors. But sometimes, i found things that make me revaluate the different games. When Romero wanted to make people his bitch, i stop playing all his creations. But now that i defeated my homosexual inner fears, i enjoy the homosexuality power fantasy that Doom is :P 

5 hours ago, Misty said:

Ah, well Rurouni Kenshin(Samurai x) creator turned out be pedophile and I ever since feel so conflicted about his work... How such people can speak about forgiveness, friendship, kindness and yet to be so fucked up in the head and commit such terrible atrocities? Entire franchise was ruined for me and I don't feel enjoyment anymore. I guess, less you know about some things, the better you will feel. 

can you please add the source of this?
I can't find it anywhere.
I mean, not notices from doubtful sites. I found that, but they are contradictory.

So if you could add a proper source for this, it would be appreciated.

5 minutes ago, P41R47 said:

can you please add the source of this?
I can't find it anywhere

https://www.thejakartapost.com/life/2017/11/22/rurouni-kenshin-creator-arrested-for-possession-of-child-pornography--.html 

https://japantoday.com/category/entertainment/following-artist’s-child-porn-conviction-'rurouni-kenshin'-manga-restarts-in-japan-but-not-america

 It's old news on this point, but here we go... 

On 5/9/2020 at 9:21 PM, P41R47 said:

In games, i don't read much about the authors. But sometimes, i found things that make me revaluate the different games. When Romero wanted to make people his bitch, i stop playing all his creations. But now that i defeated my homosexual inner fears, i enjoy the homosexuality power fantasy that Doom is :P

10 minutes ago, Misty said:

https://www.thejakartapost.com/life/2017/11/22/rurouni-kenshin-creator-arrested-for-possession-of-child-pornography--.html 

https://japantoday.com/category/entertainment/following-artist’s-child-porn-conviction-'rurouni-kenshin'-manga-restarts-in-japan-but-not-america

 It's old news on this point, but here we go... 

Don't know what to say.
Don't want to contradict you, but i will try to find the proper news or something like that, because i once read in sites like this that Eiichiro Oda died by drugs overdose.
:/