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beezee88

Duke Nukem vs ZDoom

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Two questions here:

1. Is there anything that the Duke Nukem (and Shadow Warrior) engines can do that ZDoom cannot, so far?

2. Are there any (Z)Doom editors out there that are as simple to use as BUILD for Duke Nukem? Being able to just draw your lines directly and have it calculate the sectors and vertexes is so refreshing, and the 3-D game view means you don't have to keep loading your level into the game to check out how it looks.

Edit: I'm getting some very nasty HOM in a Doom 2 level I am working on. It is on a staircase with many sectors. I tried to post it on my web site at bz88.i8.com, but because it's not a standard web file type viewable by Internet Explorer, they won't let you download it either. If you think you can help, give me your e-mail and I'll send the level on. I'ts still *work in progress* mind, but tell me what you think so far.

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I can currently only think of three thinks that Build (the name for the engine used in Duke 3d, Shadow Warrior, Blood, et al) can do but ZDoom can't:

- Flat sprites
- Moving and rotating sectors
- Individual enemies that can both fly and walk

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NiGHTMARE said:

I can currently only think of three thinks that Build (the name for the engine used in Duke 3d, Shadow Warrior, Blood, et al) can do but ZDoom can't:

- Flat sprites
- Moving and rotating sectors
- Individual enemies that can both fly and walk

- Sector over sector

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I don't think it can do that. It appears to be able to, but it just uses instant teleports and flat sprites to make it look like it.

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Nightmare: It appears to be able to, but it just uses instant teleports and flat sprites to make it look like it.

yes, but on the automap, airvents and stuff are directly over the place it's supposed to be, not hidden in the corner of the map. The underwater sectors were always miles away, but I think this was just so that the atoumap would not be cluttered with over and underwater views.

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beezee88 said:

Anyone got a helpful answer for Question #2?
...
or is anyone willing to help me with my HOM?


1) no

2) what editor does you use?

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NiGHTMARE said:

I don't think it can do that. It appears to be able to, but it just uses instant teleports and flat sprites to make it look like it.

It can do it. IIRC you can simply drag one sector over another, and the engine will handle everything else. I don't mean 3D foors, i.e. you're not allowed to see those overlapping sectors at the same time.

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Duke Nukem even had one level that contained two totally different areas in exactly the same space! I think it was a ring-like structure you had to circle twice to get back to the starting point. Anyway, it was a totally weird thing!

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Graf Zahl said:

Duke Nukem even had one level that contained two totally different areas in exactly the same space! I think it was a ring-like structure you had to circle twice to get back to the starting point. Anyway, it was a totally weird thing!


what map number was that?

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also in the end of shadow warrior isn't their a sector whose slope changes direction constantly? when your fighting the boss.

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Yes there is. I also like the volcano where below the clouds it looks nice and normal, but once you go above them everything becomes a fiery crimson red.

One effect I haven't seen in either engine is something I call heat warping (imagine looking at a parking lot on a hot summer day). It would be perfect for deserts and lava filled caverns.

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NiGHTMARE said:

- Individual enemies that can both fly and walk


Possible in Zdoom2. You can use dehacked to give an enemy a code pointer to set/unset it's response to gravity.

As has been said, it is possible to draw a sector over a sector in Duke, but I have never seen proper 3d floors. Just sectors that can be overlapped.

IIRC there was one of the Shareware episode maps that had an oval underground rail track that was below the sectors making up the street above. Or maybe that was a level I did myself. Been a long time since I played Duke properly, and even longer since I edited it. :-/

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1. Is there anything that the Duke Nukem (and Shadow Warrior) engines can do that ZDoom cannot, so far?
Lessee here...
Scripted deformation and obliteration of walls and other surfaces
Making explosions pop out of nowhere when you press a button (DN3D E1M2, anyone?)
Fundamental changes to object behavior beyond what Dehacked can accomplish (.CON files still are more powerful than what ZDOOM can do with THING modification for the time being)

2. Are there any (Z)Doom editors out there that are as simple to use as BUILD for Duke Nukem? Being able to just draw your lines directly and have it calculate the sectors and vertexes is so refreshing, and the 3-D game view means you don't have to keep loading your level into the game to check out how it looks.
I have no fucking idea.

Edit: I'm getting some very nasty HOM in a Doom 2 level I am working on. It is on a staircase with many sectors. I tried to post it on my web site at bz88.i8.com, but because it's not a standard web file type viewable by Internet Explorer, they won't let you download it either. If you think you can help, give me your e-mail and I'll send the level on. I'ts still *work in progress* mind, but tell me what you think so far.
Make sure every single linedef is properly textured.

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NiGHTMARE said:

I can currently only think of three thinks that Build (the name for the engine used in Duke 3d, Shadow Warrior, Blood, et al) can do but ZDoom can't:
- Moving and rotating sectors


Have you played the RTC-3057 demo? Those whirling fan blades are sectors, right? I see their linedefs moving in the automap.

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Woolie Wool said:

Have you played the RTC-3057 demo? Those whirling fan blades are sectors, right? I see their linedefs moving in the automap.

Done by scripts. No Build about it. :)

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Woolie Wool said:

[i]Scripted deformation and obliteration of walls and other surfaces
Making explosions pop out of nowhere when you press a button (DN3D E1M2, anyone?)

I'd say zdoom does a pretty good job of those. Sectors can be suddenly altered and explosions can be spawned anywhere via script. Play the first map of dark7 for a little fun....

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Woolie Wool said:

Scripted deformation and obliteration of walls and other surfaces

This can be done with Boom (using conveyor belts and dummy Player 1 starts), and it can be done even more effectively with ZDoom's ACS and slopes.

Making explosions pop out of nowhere when you press a button (DN3D E1M2, anyone?)

This can be done even in doom(2).exe!

1) Create a completely invisible thing in DeHackEd, and set it's wake up frames to be the barrel or rocket explosion frames.

2) Put a hole in your level with no lower texture (so you can't see it), narrow enough so the player won't fall in via scripting.

3) Have the switch instantly raise the bottom of the hole to the nearby floor.

In ZDoom you don't even need to bother with 2) and 3), just spawn the thing in.


Of course combining the explosion thing with the damaged walls/floors/ceilings effect is best :)

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Woolie Wool said:

Those whirling fan blades are sectors, right? I see their linedefs moving in the automap.

No, those fans are made up of lots and lots of sectors moving up and down very, very quickly, all controlled via ACS scripting :)

BTW...

Have you played the RTC-3057 demo?

3057demo.txt and the level introduction both say:

Beta Testing:
<snip!>
NiGHTMARE
<snip!>

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Hey I was right, and didn't even look at teh scripts. ! :)

beezee88 said:

Two questions here:

1. Is there anything that the Duke Nukem (and Shadow Warrior) engines can do that ZDoom cannot, so far?

2. Are there any (Z)Doom editors out there that are as simple to use as BUILD for Duke Nukem? Being able to just draw your lines directly and have it calculate the sectors and vertexes is so refreshing, and the 3-D game view means you don't have to keep loading your level into the game to check out how it looks.

Edit: I'm getting some very nasty HOM in a Doom 2 level I am working on. It is on a staircase with many sectors. I tried to post it on my web site at bz88.i8.com, but because it's not a standard web file type viewable by Internet Explorer, they won't let you download it either. If you think you can help, give me your e-mail and I'll send the level on. I'ts still *work in progress* mind, but tell me what you think so far.

1. Sprites as wall patches. Simulated 3D with flat sprites. Shrink Ray.
2. Doutbt it.
3. Check your nodesbuilder. Make sure all your lines refrence the correct sectores, and check textures. That's all I can really tell you.

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Enjay said:

As has been said, it is possible to draw a sector over a sector in Duke, but I have never seen proper 3d floors. Just sectors that can be overlapped.


I've seen custom maps that have working gantries (like the ones in my maps) and tunnels that cross a room. And of course, there's those vents that you can smash the walls, floors and ceilings of (as they're suspended between floor and ceiling). Not sure what causes them though.

Woolie Wool said:

Scripted deformation and obliteration of walls and other surfaces
Making explosions pop out of nowhere when you press a button (DN3D E1M2, anyone?)


Been there, done that. Easy to set up with a script (play the first map of LTSD to see a place where you blow up a wall with some dynamite). Dark 7 also has some good examples of walls blowing up.

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Room over Room they way Duke handles them can be done by Zdoom, even underwater areas, just like duke, only editors do not automate it and you have to do it all by yourself.

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beezee88 said:

what map number was that?



The level is called 'Lunatic Fringe' and is one of the secret levels in Episode 2 (E2L11)

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Ultimate DooMer said:

I've seen custom maps that have working gantries (like the ones in my maps) and tunnels that cross a room. And of course, there's those vents that you can smash the walls, floors and ceilings of (as they're suspended between floor and ceiling). Not sure what causes them though.


Flat sprites. You can make fake bridges made out of lots of flat sprites put together in a bridge shape. It's pretty neat.

You know what engine impresses me? Dark Forces. I was playing it the other day, and I didn't realise it had room over room and 3d bridges.

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