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Hisymak

Duke Nukem 3D or Quake?

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3 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

Stop dissing the Spawn, haters! Interesting enemy, and not many enemies are hard to target, quick, and EXPLODE when they die, hurting their enemies.

 

Quake is not only brown, but BLUE, too, in case you hadn't noticed.

 

I did, I'm literally the last man on Earth you'd want to point such things to... But it doesn't change the fact that it is indeed waay to brown early on, but thankfully that changes later on.

 

The Spawn would've been okay-ish if it wouldn't deal so much damage though, that's my main issue with it. It's almost literally a glorified suicide bomber. Creative, but not an actually great enemy, works on paper, not in practice.

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19 minutes ago, seed said:

Still decent enough, and definitely much better than HL1 AI anyway.

 

Combines can crouch/run to cover when needed, slowly flank you, push you back, give each other commands, use altfire (Elites), etc. Yeah, they do their job just fine.

 

^This. The AI in HL2 is fine. Even HL1's AI is actually pretty ahead of its time.

 

And regarding the weapon feel situation, I think I need play HL2 more as I have only played through it like 2 times in my entire life. It's just that whenever I played it, I got the feeling that the weapons are deliberately designed to be like that to make them feel more realistic (of course in real life, enemies are not pushed back a mile when shot) which I can understand as the realistic physics is one of the main appeals of the game.

 

But it is just my personal pet-peeve as I prefer bit more feedback than what HL2 has (even if it means slightly sacrificing the realism).

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4 minutes ago, seed said:

The Spawn would've been okay-ish if it wouldn't deal so much damage though, that's my main issue with it. It's almost literally a glorified suicide bomber. Creative, but not an actually great enemy, works on paper, not in practice.

 

I guess they were rushed. But it's fun to see them in-fighting with Death Knights who are slow and cumbersome by comparison, for example.

 

I wasn't having a go specifically at you, mind. :)

 

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It's odd that the popular opinion of Quake is that it's a gimmicky tech demo, when Duke3D's main claim to fame is as a tech demo for gimmicky "press F to pee in a toilet and hear a stolen catchphrase from Evil Dead" level interaction that is funny exactly once. Just on an artistic level, many games are still trying to recapture the specifically otherwordly feel of Quake. I don't think anyone today is still all that moved by, "press F looking at digital tits, see digital money appear."

 

Edited by Gifty

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21 minutes ago, Gifty said:

It's odd that the popular opinion of Quake is that it's a gimmicky tech demo, when Duke3D's main claim to fame is as a tech demo for gimmicky "press F to pee in a toilet and hear a stolen catchphrase from Evil Dead" level interaction that is funny exactly once. Just on an artistic level, many games are still trying to recapture the specifically otherwordly feel of Quake. I don't think anyone today is still all that moved by, "press F looking at digital tits, see digital money appear."

 

Didn't Duke Nukem 3D come first? If it didn't then Army of Darkness took the cover from Doom 1, which Duke would use too. Anyway, I apologise for calling Quake a tech demo. Even if it was made as one, it's a very good tech demo. The super nailgun was pointless however. If Quake just had the super nailgun and the standard nailgun was changed or removed then it would be a good addition.

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8 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

Didn't Duke Nukem 3D come first? If it didn't then Army of Darkness took the cover from Doom 1, which Duke would use too. Anyway, I apologise for calling Quake a tech demo. Even if it was made as one, it's a very good tech demo. The super nailgun was pointless however. If Quake just had the super nailgun and the standard nailgun was changed or removed then it would be a good addition.

 

Nails were prominent in Quake because Nine Inch Nails were behind the soundtrack, and apparently the sound effects too (which I'm still not certain is true). Therefore, nails ;)

 

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3 minutes ago, Foebane72 said:

 

Nails were prominent in Quake because Nine Inch Nails were behind the soundtrack, and apparently the sound effects too (which I'm still not certain is true). Therefore, nails ;)

 

I didn't say nails as ammunition was a bad idea. What I'm saying is that having a faster nailgun with no differences was an odd choice. The super nailgun could have been like the devastator from Duke Nukem 3D. Explosive nails! Would have made both the standard nailgun and super nailgun different from each other.

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1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

And regarding the weapon feel situation, I think I need play HL2 more as I have only played through it like 2 times in my entire life. It's just that whenever I played it, I got the feeling that the weapons are deliberately designed to be like that to make them feel more realistic (of course in real life, enemies are not pushed back a mile when shot) which I can understand as the realistic physics is one of the main appeals of the game.

 

But it is just my personal pet-peeve as I prefer bit more feedback than what HL2 has (even if it means slightly sacrificing the realism).

 

I get what you're saying, so I guess you should just give it some more time.

 

After you do, also play some great HL2 mods. Minerva, Mission Improbable, Missing Information (devs are assholes though, but the mod is great), Dark Interval, Human Error Episode One, and Entropy Zero. I am sure you'll enjoy them.

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3 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

Not sure what source port to use for Quake.

 

Depends on what you expect from your game. For my needs and purposes vkQuake, a Vulkan-compatible fork of Quakespasm, and vkQuake 2 for Quake 2 are the perfect ports. It's Quake, and Vulkan compatible, what else could you want.

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6 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Depends on what you expect from your game. For my needs and purposes vkQuake, a Vulkan-compatible fork of Quakespasm, and vkQuake 2 for Quake 2 are the perfect ports. It's Quake, and Vulkan compatible, what else could you want.

Oh, ok. Apparently Scourge of Armagon is supposed to have footstep sounds, but I can't hear them in Darkplaces. In FTEQW they can be heard. How do I turn it on for DP?

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4 hours ago, Foebane72 said:

Does anyone remember the very first Shareware release of Quake? As I recall, there were complaints about it being really dark, because the colour palette was shifted too much to the dark side. When later versions of Shareware Quake came out, the colours were brighter, the way we know Quake today, in software mode at least.

 

 

Heh. Someone asked if id had to pay a tax on colors, and that stuck in my mind. And another guy complained: what's with ranger, is he 70 or something? Because he was so slow compared to doom. Well, smaller maps and internet play. This was before bunny hopping was invented. 

 

My 486 became a slide show, so I bought a shiny new pentium 166 mhz and it gave me 14 fps on timerefresh in the starting hall. Don't remember what resolution exactly, but it must have been about 320x200 like doom. And it looked rather gritty and pixellated. Truly a tax on colors compared to the bright parrot that was Duke.

 

Then, half a year later, in 1997, the first 3dfx voodoo card came out. I went with a friend to another town to see it in action, and we were so blown away that we returned with a voodoo each. And it make glquake run at full 28 fps, but this time it was in 640x480 (that's the best I remember, so take it with a grain of salt). Anyway glquake looked so different, it made Quake a completely new game. 

 

We were also amazed by texture filtering back then, because it made the graphics so smooth, unlike the pixellated software look. Today I play in VKquake at 240 hz and set textures to the original mode, it's better than the washed out look. 

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4 minutes ago, The Strife Commando said:

Quake is just as fast as Doom. If not, faster.

Aw hell no. Quake is considerably slower. Enemies are less numerous and on average much tougher than in Doom. The tankiest non-boss monster in Quake can have 1200 eHP. That can be mostly attributed to shotguns and the rocket launcher being considerably weaker.

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3 hours ago, Gifty said:

It's odd that the popular opinion of Quake is that it's a gimmicky tech demo, when Duke3D's main claim to fame is as a tech demo for gimmicky "press F to pee in a toilet and hear a stolen catchphrase from Evil Dead" level interaction that is funny exactly once.

One of the things that I've always loved about Duke3D are the cityscape areas (and generally locations on Earth as opposed to space stations), and it appears that the developers put a good emphasis on them too if you check out LameDuke and the pre-release screenshots. This is where the game shines IMO, and the amount of interactivity and realism was truly impressive back in the day. Compare urban levels in Duke3D and in the slightly older game on the Build engine, TekWar. Duke does them right (most of the time).

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2 hours ago, MrFlibble said:

One of the things that I've always loved about Duke3D are the cityscape areas (and generally locations on Earth as opposed to space stations), and it appears that the developers put a good emphasis on them too if you check out LameDuke and the pre-release screenshots. This is where the game shines IMO, and the amount of interactivity and realism was truly impressive back in the day. Compare urban levels in Duke3D and in the slightly older game on the Build engine, TekWar. Duke does them right (most of the time).

I'd like to see Tokyo in Duke Nukem 3D.

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4 hours ago, SuperchargedEuthanasiaDiv said:

Aw hell no. Quake is considerably slower. Enemies are less numerous and on average much tougher than in Doom. The tankiest non-boss monster in Quake can have 1200 eHP. That can be mostly attributed to shotguns and the rocket launcher being considerably weaker.

 

I don't think that's true at all. The strongest enemy in Quake (that's not impervious to normal damage) takes roughly 10 seconds to kill with that game's equivalent to the pistol. If you know where the powerups are and frequently use explosives you can blast through the levels unbelievably fast, and that's if you don't use movement tricks like bhopping.

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9 hours ago, Gifty said:

It's odd that the popular opinion of Quake is that it's a gimmicky tech demo

 

Yeah, that's a new one for me. I've heard plenty of people call Quake 2 a tech demo for all its engine's advancements while also being considerably boring and lacking in personality compared to its predecessor, but never Quake 1 itself. It's a slapdash mixed bag of over-ambition, time mismanagement and a lack of coherent design leadership, but still manages to feel like an inventive and engaging experience thanks to its solid mechanics and levels on top of the technical brilliance and importance of its engine. 

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I must say that Quake 2's arsenal is more Doom than Quake, but without the fists.

 

Blaster = Pistol

Shotgun = Shotgun

Super Shotgun = Combat Shotgun

Minigun = Gatling Gun

Hyperblaster = Plasma Rifle

Rocket Launcher = Rocker Launcher

BFG 10k = BFG 9000

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While Quake has the better atmosphere Duke pretty much beats it at every other aspect, has a lot more color to it, more personality, better level design, more creative weapons and its also aged a hell of a lot better than Quake as well.

Early 3D games just havent aged as well as sprite based shooters, someone a while back even said that Doom 64 has aged a lot better than its 3D N64 counterparts at the time like Turok and Goldeneye and he was right (even if i still love those games)

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6 hours ago, Cacodemon345 said:

Quake 2 was better than Quake 1, being set in its own universe with level designs done right IMO.

 

If only they were more interesting and imaginative though. They're not bad by any means and fairly consistent but also so... indistinct at times. Everything just blends together in that game. Warehouses? Deposits? Prisons? Yeah, it has all of those, and yet there's still not much to create stark contrast. And gameplay-wise Q2 holds no candle to Q1, but that's just my opinion.

 

8 hours ago, xdarkmasterx said:

I don't think that's true at all. The strongest enemy in Quake (that's not impervious to normal damage) takes roughly 10 seconds to kill with that game's equivalent to the pistol. If you know where the powerups are and frequently use explosives you can blast through the levels unbelievably fast, and that's if you don't use movement tricks like bhopping.

 

Also this.

 

Quake is much faster than Doom and typically requires faster movement and other tactics than Doom does to kill the enemies, not to mention player movement itself is faster and things go very quick if using explosives constantly, even if completely disregarding tricks such as bunny hopping.

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9 hours ago, xdarkmasterx said:

 

I don't think that's true at all. The strongest enemy in Quake (that's not impervious to normal damage) takes roughly 10 seconds to kill with that game's equivalent to the pistol. If you know where the powerups are and frequently use explosives you can blast through the levels unbelievably fast, and that's if you don't use movement tricks like bhopping.

Please tell me how do you kill a Shambler in 10 seconds with the starting shotgun without him murdering you five times over in the process.

And that same logic can be applied to Doom as well. A well-informed and trained player will finish a map in mere seconds.

1 hour ago, seed said:

Quake is much faster than Doom and typically requires faster movement and other tactics than Doom does to kill the enemies, not to mention player movement itself is faster and things go very quick if using explosives constantly, even if completely disregarding tricks such as bunny hopping.

 

Quote

John Carmack decided that we could get more gameplay out of the levels if he slowed down the player's running speed. In DOOM the player went at crazy-fast speeds and it was incredible. In DOOM we could make huge maps and player speed was not a problem. With Quake's maps, the hallways, rooms, and outdoor areas were all smaller because of the file size. So slowing down the player meant it took longer to finish a level, and longer to finish the game overall.

Taken from Romero's own website. Quake is slower in every aspect. Combat, movemement speed. It doesn't matter that a quad-boosted rocket can propel you to the moon. Everything had to be slowed down to acommodate for smaller maps.

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13 minutes ago, SuperchargedEuthanasiaDiv said:

Please tell me how do you kill a Shambler in 10 seconds with the starting shotgun without him murdering you five times over in the process.

And that same logic can be applied to Doom as well. A well-informed and trained player will finish a map in mere seconds.

 

 

 

Behold, 14 seconds on Nightmare. If I'd melee-looped him instead, it would have been faster. No amount of skill is going to let me kill a Cyberdemon or even Baron in anywhere near that short of a time with the pistol.

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19 hours ago, Gifty said:

It's odd that the popular opinion of Quake is that it's a gimmicky tech demo, when Duke3D's main claim to fame is as a tech demo for gimmicky "press F to pee in a toilet and hear a stolen catchphrase from Evil Dead" level interaction that is funny exactly once. Just on an artistic level, many games are still trying to recapture the specifically otherwordly feel of Quake. I don't think anyone today is still all that moved by, "press F looking at digital tits, see digital money appear."

 

 

 

There's a big fallacy in your reasoning.

Showing true 3D is presenting new tech.

Showing how to pee is presenting creative elements, as banal and inane as they may be in this case.

 

The real difference between these two games is that Quake showed how to do abstract mapping in true 3D and Duke showed how the existing tech can be pushed for more creative elements and infusing an element of realism into the map design.

 

And that's ulimately why it is is mainly an element of preference what one may find better. Those who are impressed by tech will inevitably choose Quake, but those more impressed by creative elements will choose Duke.

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51 minutes ago, xdarkmasterx said:

Behold, 14 seconds on Nightmare. If I'd melee-looped him instead, it would have been faster. No amount of skill is going to let me kill a Cyberdemon or even Baron in anywhere near that short of a time with the pistol.

That's because the pistol is substantially weaker than the Q1 shotgun. The two can't be compared, even if they're both starting weapons. The pistol is hampered by damage and bullet spread. Oh yeah, a Baron has 66% more hp than a Shambler, too. It matters little in Doom, since its shotgun is significantly more powerful than the Q1's shotty, hell - in certain situations, more powerful than the double barrel. Doom's weapons kill stuff faster.

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I kind of wish this thread had been a poll. I like Duke3D more as well - a lot more really, because it feels more closely related to Doom despite Quake being Doom's blood brother and Duke being the illegitimate step-son. Truth be told, I have yet to finish Quake.. Not that I don't like it, in fact I have quite an appreciation for it. It's just that there are very few FPS games that I've actually completed, because they're all quite boring for me compared to Classic Doom and WADs. Give me a middling Doom WAD over 99% of FPS games in existence any day of the week.

 

As a kid I always felt Duke was more like an ultra high-budget, super-extensive Doom TC (had no clue it was even using a different engine as a kid) and I considered this a strength, if anything. Being similar to the best game ever is high praise, after all. Quake diverged too much for me and was too brown. I know this isn't the common opinion but Doom deathmatch is also a zillion times more fun because there's not all the irritating flying/jumping around and all that. Always preferred the faster movement and 'grounded' combat of Doom.

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Saying which game's enemies "die faster" is a gross oversimplification. Quake's enemies have a much narrower spread of durability than Doom's--it has neither extreme bullet sponges nor popcorn zombies that melt if you so much as look at them.

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