Snapmap deserves more respect

With the release of DOOM back in 2016, came a feature for those WADers to get a WADding experience with the game. There it was, Snapmap! people could use pre-made rooms and place their favorite enemies and objects in that room to make for a crazy fighting experience. People could make their own DOOM storyline, and create maps never seen before. Sadly, it was barely looked at, with people assuming it was too archaic, and that WADs could create better experiences than this silly tool. Even with massive updates and new mechanics, people still looked at Snapmap with little thought. But, with these updates, DOOM Snapmap could create massive worlds full of great gameplay mechanics. as some people like @FNSG have shown in videos, people can create worlds bigger than WADs, and more colorful than people thought. even with these videos, people still show little attention towards Snapmap. That is why I say Snapmap deserves more respect, and more people should use it. 

SnapMap was great but I wouldn't claim it "can create worlds bigger than WADs". There are so many incredibly diverse and expansive WADs out there - of which other users on this site are more familiar with than I am. SnapMap suffers from plenty of bugs and crashes in the editor. The loading times are long. Custom Geo could use a lot more development. If I recall correctly, AI pathing is bugged for elevated Custom Geo. Actually, the AI sometimes just bugs out within Custom Geo in general, particularly Hell Knights. There are some self-imposed limitations too - like the 12-spawns-capacity, missing weapon mods, missing demons, missing props, missing pick-ups, etc.

It didn't help SnapMap's perception when they unveiled it primarily as a gimmick mode maker. In terms of being able to create a campaign-styled map, it was extremely limited at launch (two weapon limits and module-only construction). Modules make sense but I don't understand why they thought launching with the two-weapon multiplayer limit was a good idea. The modules themselves weren't very flexible, as evident from the "official" E1M3 remake at launch, which didn't look anything like E1M3. First impressions matter a lot and people weren't impressed with what was presented at launch. It also didn't help that there was hardly any advertising or promotions for SnapMap. Outside of the preview in the original E3 reveal, we only got this as a trailer before launch. In the Update 4 trailer which introduced Custom Geo and the ability to link levels to make campaigns, arguably SnapMap's largest update which is responsible for the current style of impressive maps, only got six seconds of screen time in the Update 4 trailer - and even then, it didn't bring any attention to the Custom Geo feature at all, only the Classic modules. They only started advertising SnapMap as a "more-campaign-mode" thing at the tail-end of the game's update life cycle. They should've led with this trailer instead from the very beginning.

Because of the two above points, SnapMap ended up being the least played mode among Doom 2016's offerings (the other two being Campaign and Multiplayer of course). At launch, the rarest achievement in the game was to publish a map. I recall comments on SnapMap's final update trailer that thought the mention of a co-op mode seemed like a neat addition - except for the fact co-op had been in the game since launch. The casual audience were unaware of its existence while the dedicated audience were generally underwhelmed by it. It got cut for the Switch port (for memory reasons). It got cut for Doom Eternal (for DLC/MP reasons). It just wasn't promoted very much and despite the updates, the current state of SnapMap is still unfinished. It's no surprise that hardly anyone stuck around for it.

SnapMap is one of my favourite things about Doom 2016. It was a built-in map editor/browser that was easy to use, had cross-platform map-sharing, had integrated co-operative and deathmatch modes, and so on. Unfortunately, the execution is lacking and I don't blame people for not keeping interest in it. The Custom Geo features should've been in the game since launch, along with the plethora of other additions - Hell/Lazarus modules, no weapon limit, linking levels to make campaigns, campaign props/animations, etc. There should've been a lot more updates for SnapMap as well - addressing stability concerns, bugs, adding missing features (mods, demons...), adding more tools (more Custom Geo customization), and so on.

It's a shame that Doom Eternal doesn't have SnapMap (or any content creation tools) because I think it would've been an incredible fit with the larger enemy variety, more environmental locales, and more gameplay mechanics/features. Would've also paired favorably with the weekly challenges and event series that they are pushing as well. I've spent over 700 hours on Doom 2016, the vast majority of those hours spent on messing around with SnapMap. I enjoy drafting ideas that randomly spring into my head or just playing a chain of other people's maps. The ability to create and play other people's custom content is an incredible way of prolonging the lifespan of a game, as anyone on Doomworld would agree with. I hope id approaches SnapMap in Doom 6 with the same level of care as they put into the campaigns.

I still want to see Snapmap in Eternal. I think it's great for what it is (after the updates), it could have used a couple more updates though.

The load times for snapmap and Doom 2016 was terrible, followed by the god awful interface of choosing maps, it just gave a poor user experience.

Fix those two issues and then include it in Eternal (with new assets and monsters + functions) I think it would receive much more traction.

I get the feeling that you've never actually tried using SnapMap, Lit_gam3r. Or if you have, it wasn't for very long. Some of your comments just don't seem grounded in reality much.

23 hours ago, LiT_gam3r said:

and place their favorite enemies and objects in that room to make for a crazy fighting experience

Sure, except the Summoner, Cyberdemon, Hell Guards, and Spider Mastermind. The first two were among my favorite enemies from 2016, but alas, not available for SnapMap (other than a jank version of the Summoner that doesn't summon). 

And, crazy fighting experiences? Well... debatable. FNSG does create some incredibly wild and creative stuff with SnapMap, but if you play any of the maps (or even just watch any of his videos), you'll notice he enjoys creating custom geo maps. This results in enemies that either A) only run around on the flat surface at the bottom of the level, or B) don't move at all, and just throw projectiles. This gets boring quick, after a campaign that was so hyper-focused on movement and verticality in its arenas.

And utilizing the prefab modules comes with its own host of issues. Bad AI pathing (to the point that it makes some of the modules unusable for combat), to the joys of watching certain monsters -- especially the Hellknights -- having a tendency to yeet themselves out of the world due to funky collision. 

23 hours ago, LiT_gam3r said:

with people assuming it was too archaic, and that WADs could create better experiences than this silly tool

The fact is, if you compared the ability for someone to use Doom Builder to create a Doom II experience versus the ability for someone to use SnapMap to create a DOOM 2016 experience, the former is infinitely better in every conceivable way. 

If you look at them independently, the kinds of experiences & maps people can make with classic Doom editors are not just equal to the IWADS, they actually stomp them in quality. I don't know anyone who would attempt to argue that the IWADS have the highest quality out of every custom PWAD in existence.

This can not be said of SnapMap, and the official D2016 campaign. I've yet to see a single SnapMap creation come anywhere close to the quality of the campaign levels, simply because the tools are not there to do so. That doesn't mean there haven't been some very fun and interesting SnapMaps, but to the same degree of quality as the campaign? No, and miles from surpassing it. 

So, based on their respective games, WAD editors do create better experiences.

On 7/4/2020 at 12:34 PM, LiT_gam3r said:

people can create worlds bigger than WADs

I'm sure this is hyperbole more than anything serious at this point, but, c'mon haha. This is definitely not true. The hard limits in SnapMap on things like Memory and Objects will always and forever hold it back in terms of huge creative endeavors. No one will ever, ever make a Sunder in SnapMap -- it's genuinely impossible. 

24 minutes ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

Sure, except the Summoner, Cyberdemon, Hell Guards, and Spider Mastermind. The first two were among my favorite enemies from 2016, but alas, not available for SnapMap (other than a jank version of the Summoner that doesn't summon). 

yeah, in your opinion. My favorite enemy happened to be the Hell knight, seems like they put that in there. 

25 minutes ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

The fact is, if you compared the ability for someone to use Doom Builder to create a Doom II experience versus the ability for someone to use SnapMap to create a DOOM 2016 experience, the former is infinitely better in every conceivable way. 

yes, obviously. I meant it like people think that there are infinite ways to WAD, and only several ways to Snapmap, even though that is not true. Not that Snapmap was better than Doom Builder. 

28 minutes ago, RonnieJamesDiner said:

I'm sure this is hyperbole more than anything serious at this point, but, c'mon haha. This is definitely not true. The hard limits in SnapMap on things like Memory and Objects will always and forever hold it back in terms of huge creative endeavors. No one will ever, ever make a Sunder in SnapMap -- it's genuinely impossible. 

Of course it was a hyperbole. I was saying that you can build larger worlds than you think.

I could have worded it differently, but my main point was that people shouldn't just skip it. it adds to the DOOM experience (at least for me). 

Incidentally, are there any decent SnapMaps I can play to fill out my D2016 trophies on PS4? 

@LiT_gam3r Alright, sorry I wasn't trying to be a dick. And you make some fair points.

My point was... I don't think people just rejected SnapMap without giving it a fair shake. Yes there are still the few outliers and diehard fans of it, finding ways to stretch it creatively, but for the most part I think the average user simply got frustrated with the limitations and moved on. I think it's a case of people just naturally gravitating towards the better user experience. This exact same argument can be made for Doom 3 map editing.

But, you're always going to see more effort, love, and attention being put into WAD editing over Radiant or SnapMap editing because it offers a genuinely better experience, fewer limitations, fewer headaches, a far more streamlined and faster process with regards to high-quality output, and a massive, dedicated community available for support and feedback.

Yes it's a shame that SnapMap wasn't a bigger success with more consistent content, I whole heartedly agree. That said... I don't think it's the fault of the community "giving up on it", as your posts seemed to hint at (perhaps I'm misinterpreting your view, though). I think if you personally sat down with SnapMap for a considerable chunk of time, and tried to create something genuinely awesome with it, you'd learn very quickly why it never shared the same dedication and attention that WAD editing has received.    

14 hours ago, Jayextee said:

Incidentally, are there any decent SnapMaps I can play to fill out my D2016 trophies on PS4? 

What kind of Trophies are you after?

I'm happy to recommend my map more for a fun experience. It's called Memento Mori Machina. The final battle has re-spawning enemies and items for some grinding, if that's what you're after.

9 minutes ago, Chezza said:

What kind of Trophies are you after?

Just one in question here, "Play 5 published SnapMaps". The other two SnapMap related ones are to go through the tutorial, then create and publish my own SnapMap (ugh). Those and the multiplayer ones are the only trophies between me and a Platinum for the game... (unless the add-on trophies count? I doubt they should though)

On 7/6/2020 at 11:00 AM, Jayextee said:

Just one in question here, "Play 5 published SnapMaps". The other two SnapMap related ones are to go through the tutorial, then create and publish my own SnapMap (ugh). Those and the multiplayer ones are the only trophies between me and a Platinum for the game... (unless the add-on trophies count? I doubt they should though)

If it's just trophies you're after you can cheese it by just finding short maps. Thats what I did. 

snapmap in eternal would be a breath of fresh air for sure...with creativity of doom community members that game could definitely be out of reach of cyberpunk2077 regarding "game of the year title"...SNAP ON!