SIGIL

On 12/18/2019 at 5:41 PM, RonnieJamesDiner said:

 

@Steve D Alright man, it's your turn. For me, it was definitely worth setting the 90 mins aside for.

Uh-oh, I'm in trouble now! :o

I missed the explorability, optional areas, shortcuts, a sense of mystery, secrets which open up alternative progression routes etc. which were all so abundant in Romero's iwad levels. 

All the levels in Sigil were very straigtforward. A missed opportunity, because many of those maps could have had a lot more "depth". The large voids surrounding maps 2 and 5 could easlily have included secrets and optional areas. Map 4 would have been much more replayable if it had included some (secret) interconnections between the 3 paths. The secret exit in map 6 could have been much more convoluted than simply shooting one hidden eye switch.

I still enjoyed playing the maps, but I don't feel like replaying them anytime soon, as I don't feel like there is anything more discover in them than what I saw in my first playthrough.

I as well have not played it, not due to disintrest, but...I just haven't had the time yet...So many WADs I just haven't had the time to play...SoonTM

11 hours ago, dmslr said:

What are pros of v1.1?

Mostly maps four and eight are kinda butchered in v1.2. There are other smaller "but why though" moments as well. Really v1.2 feels like beating a dead horse. OTOH, it probably is much better for co-op, and pistol starting is much less tedious. The difficulty of hmp is better too.

On 12/18/2019 at 3:52 PM, DeathWalkerGT said:

so I wanted to ask you guys if its worth playing it

Definitely. I never was a fan of SoH or of Inferno in Doom1, but I've enjoyed SIGIL pretty much. Some maps are better (even my favorites), some worse but as whole I can SIGIL recommend.

1. Don't play it in 4K/HD or try to avoid GZDoom and modern ports if possible. Try to play SIGIL in Legacy port or even in DOS. It looks and feels better that way.
2. Don't start first play on Ultra-Violence difficulty. It's really challenging. Enjoy it on „Hurt me plenty“ or even lesser difficulty if you are unskilled player. And this is design I've been missing for years in modern mainstream games and I like it. It isn't so paltable for every (casual) player but „Skill level“ really has meaning. For this Romero has some insignificant points in my grading book.

The community's ambivalent reaction to Sigil really astounds me, especially considering how universally acclaimed the 2016 Romero releases (e1m8b and e1m4b) were. Sigil is Doom perfection. The level design is just as stellar as that in the original 4 episodes. The creativity needed to introduce an entirely unique visual motif despite only using vanilla textures and boom-compatible levels is to be commended. He even invented a new "mechanic" of sorts, with those eye switches, despite using the original Doom engine. The maps are varied in style and gameplay, yet each is memorable and iconic in its own way. Since the release of Sigil, mappers have been taking ideas in level design and art style introduced in Sigil into their own works. The combat is challenging, but not challenging in a stupid way (e.g. slaughter maps, or bosses that are tanks with ludicrous amounts of health). The Buckethead soundtrack is virtuoso musicianship and in a class of its own when it comes to contemporary rock releases, but I find it's best listened to by itself. The midi soundtrack suits the levels more in-game. Tonally, the maps fit in perfectly with the original episodes. This feels like it belongs in the Ultimate Doom, and is a natural progression from Episode 4. In every conceivable aspect, Romero nailed the high expectations surrounding such a high profile and highly anticipated release, and then surpassed them.

I honestly find it hard to believe that anybody would criticize, much less dislike Sigil, but I suppose anything popular is bound to also be considered overrated by some.

So anyway, OP, did you eventually give it a try, and if so, what did you think?

44 minutes ago, QuaketallicA said:

The community's ambivalent reaction to Sigil really astounds me, especially considering how universally acclaimed the 2016 Romero releases (e1m8b and e1m4b) were. Sigil is Doom perfection. The level design is just as stellar as that in the original 4 episodes. The creativity needed to introduce an entirely unique visual motif despite only using vanilla textures and boom-compatible levels is to be commended.

No. Just because Romero made the levels in his own style (Which is very much his, mind you) does not mean SIGIL is Doom perfection. We have aeons of community mapsets that prove just that.

But that's not problematic. What matters (atleast to me) is that one of the OG Crew went back and made a new episode in the mapping style he used all that time ago, whilst having picked up some new mapping techniques along the way. The result is a episode that fits very neatly next to the original works.

That is not to say it is perfect whatsoever - Cramped space where the speed is reduced to a crawl whilst having to avoid monsters could be one of them. And design might be another. But that is not say that SIGIL is a worthy episode, and not because of Romero Rosetinted Goggles.

44 minutes ago, QuaketallicA said:

I honestly find it hard to believe that anybody would criticize, much less dislike Sigil, but I suppose anything popular is bound to also be considered overrated by some.

Why would it be hard to criticize SIGIL? Even the greatest wadsets have their nitpicks - and that's good. There is always something to improve, always something new to push. Whether that is discovering a new engine bug, a new usage of vanilla limits, texture placement, or unique usage of light in a level - There is always the daily challenge offered by Doom to soldier on and find new techniques out of old technology.

Thanks to the modding community, the open source nature of Doom, and the source code, that challenge can be met every day.

1 hour ago, QuaketallicA said:

The community's ambivalent reaction to Sigil really astounds me

I mean, given the good 20+ years of community map sets that were made between Romero's work on Doom 2 and Sigil, it really shouldn't. That kind of thing is going to create a greater standard of what dedicated Doomers have come to enjoy and expect, so despite Romero being the man who very much laid down the very foundations of what made a Doom map "good", it's foolish to think everyone would just praise his efforts unanimously. Instead, Sigil faced scrutiny because of the litany of competing community projects available. A great deal of evolution and innovation in Doom mapping took place in those 20 years, mate. Of course, this isn't to say Romero's efforts aren't without significance. He absolutely showed you can still make a Doom map incredibly beautiful, intricate, cruel, gritty and challenging just by using Doom 1 assets alone which is commendable in its own right.

25 minutes ago, Biodegradable said:

 A great deal of evolution and innovation in Doom mapping took place in those 20 years, mate.

Sigil was intentionally designed as a 25th anniversary wad, and as a fifth episode for the Ultimate Doom. Complaining that it did exactly what it set out to do is pretty stupid.

On a separate note, I question whether many community map sets actually are up to par with vanilla Doom. Maps of massively expansive size or ones that use flashy new GZDoom features don't necessarily have the most interesting gameplay or map design. Of course, I'm happy to be shown otherwise. It's just, I generally find a lot of the commonly cited "best" Doom mappacks can be underwhelming. And of those that genuinely are great? It's because they're closer to the design principles of the original game, not because they've deviated from them.

2 minutes ago, QuaketallicA said:

Sigil was intentionally designed as a 25th anniversary wad, and as a fifth episode for the Ultimate Doom. Complaining that it did exactly what it set out to do is pretty stupid.

I mean, you'll get no argument from me in that regard, fam. I understand exactly what Romero set out to do with Sigil. Incidentally, I honestly haven't seen that many people bad-mouth it as you seem to be implying. Naturally, I can't speak for others, but I certainly haven't gotten the feeling of ambivalence from the community towards it that you're talking about. Most people seem to dig it just fine from where I'm sitting.

4 minutes ago, QuaketallicA said:

Sigil was intentionally designed as a 25th anniversary wad, and as a fifth episode for the Ultimate Doom. Complaining that it did exactly what it set out to do is pretty stupid.

Calling SIGIL Doom perfection is equally silly, aswell. So where does that leave you?

4 minutes ago, QuaketallicA said:

On a separate note, I question whether many community map sets actually are up to par with vanilla Doom. Maps of massively expansive size or ones that use flashy new GZDoom features don't necessarily have the most interesting gameplay or map design. Of course, I'm happy to be shown otherwise. It's just, I generally find a lot of the commonly cited "best" Doom mappacks can be underwhelming. And of those that genuinely are great? It's because they're closer to the design principles of the original game, not because they've deviated from them.

Feel free to retrieve a list of mapsets you have played yourself that made you arrive at the conclusions you have made now. Since you are the one questioning the quality of the community's best and if they are up to par, you should be able to produce a list of mapsets that you have played.

55 minutes ago, Redneckerz said:

There is always something to improve, always something new to push. Whether that is discovering a new engine bug, a new usage of vanilla limits, texture placement, or unique usage of light in a level - There is always the daily challenge offered by Doom to soldier on and find new techniques out of old technology.

Very true. I didn't mean to say Sigil is perfect in that nobody will ever do anything new after it. I just meant that it was done phenomenally well in every aspect, in the same way I would consider og Doom or Quake to be FPS perfection. Obviously the push to be better always exists.

It's fine. The gameplay is solid, it's challenging, but fair (although I played with continuous play, NOT pistol starts). It looks good, if you like dark and gloomy. I don't personally like that style of aesthetics, though.

Started to play this through recently - haven't finished it yet - in vanilla GZDoom. I first tried a while back with Brutal (19, I think) and it is definitely better with vanilla. A lot of this thread say that as well.

My opinion?

Pros:

 - good level design, with some cool themes

 - quite a challenge

 - Romero!!

 - Fits well with original Doom style

Cons (sort of):

 - Fits well with original Doom style - (a con if you wanted a 'modern' level)

 - can be a bit confusing

 - Seems not to play well with gameplay mods (which I guess is deliberate given it is a specific new Doom episode)

It is certainly not the same as some of the modern megawads that use many non-vanilla features in terms of level complexity and/or funky scripted sequences etc., but it is not supposed to be.

I like what I have played so far (to E5M4) and would recommend any new Doomer play it.

On 12/19/2019 at 4:43 AM, Pablo_Doom_Guy said:

i had no idea who "buckethead" was before sigil

Probably best known outside Doom community as a member of Guns 'n' Roses in the early '00's:

5 hours ago, QuaketallicA said:

On a separate note, I question whether many community map sets actually are up to par with vanilla Doom. Maps of massively expansive size or ones that use flashy new GZDoom features don't necessarily have the most interesting gameplay or map design. Of course, I'm happy to be shown otherwise. It's just, I generally find a lot of the commonly cited "best" Doom mappacks can be underwhelming. And of those that genuinely are great? It's because they're closer to the design principles of the original game, not because they've deviated from them.

This is so bizarre to me on multiple levels. I saw you trashing an authentically 90's-yet-good style wad in another thread, but now oldschool vanilla Doom is the pinnacle? It's just weird and almost at odds with itself. People who tend to think the iwad maps are top-class tend to also favor more oldschool styled wads.. At least, that's true for me and many others I know..

So which is it? Is oldschool stuff that truly feels like pure, 90's Dooming the pinnacle? Because here you seem to be bashing flashy GZDoom effects, but in that other thread you were also bashing authentically oldschool doom waddage.. With these factors considered: God damn, your view of what consitutes a "good doom wad" much be exceedingly narrow!

If someone came to me and said "Recommend me a Doom wad. I don't want flashy effects for newer ports, I don't want DoomCute or authentic 90's zaneyness, and Sigil is the greatest pwad ever made." I'd honestly be at a loss for what to show them. Some of the better designed mapsets with very few custom textures I guess? Scythe.wad tends to be a safe bet.. right?? You can't possibly think Scythe is bad: it's true, distilled, oldschool Dooming goodness purified to it's most potent level, so maybe that will please you and if not, who the hell knows.

Pistol started every map on UV and had a blast. Some parts were tough but overall it was pretty good. I only played version 1.0 though. I'll revisit it again soon.

6 hours ago, QuaketallicA said:

 

Sigil was intentionally designed as a 25th anniversary wad, and as a fifth episode for the Ultimate Doom. Complaining that it did exactly what it set out to do is pretty stupid.

 

On a separate note, I question whether many community map sets actually are up to par with vanilla Doom. Maps of massively expansive size or ones that use flashy new GZDoom features don't necessarily have the most interesting gameplay or map design. Of course, I'm happy to be shown otherwise. It's just, I generally find a lot of the commonly cited "best" Doom mappacks can be underwhelming. And of those that genuinely are great? It's because they're closer to the design principles of the original game, not because they've deviated from them.

I would argue that the disparity (if it exists) is because most of us are not a team of paid professionals working on an official product

I didn't really think about what others thought before I had played it. I loved it. Didn't have any problems with it. Chainsaw is good for saving ammo against demons who really deserve it. Then Gmanlives made his video about how bad he thought Sigil was and it's been sorta mixed here and there. "Sigil is crap, Romero is crap." -attitudes and so on. Personally, I love Sigil. It's been very influential level pack for me. I just love the atmosphere. 

14 hours ago, QuaketallicA said:

He even invented a new "mechanic" of sorts, with those eye switches, despite using the original Doom engine.

Not to detract too much from Romero's work, which I agree is epic, but this idea of the shooting the evil eye to trigger something isn't original. Shooting eyeballs has been done countless times, just using the SW1SKIN texture instead of the evil eye. Here's me doing it a bunch in No End In Sight e3m6:

I think the only reason we never saw it with the evil eye before is because using the switch texture is better - it closes after it's shot as if in pain, which is a neat little narrative device.

6 hours ago, Samuel Slayer said:

Then Gmanlives made his video about how bad he thought Sigil was and it's been sorta mixed here and there. "Sigil is crap, Romero is crap." -attitudes and so on.

It's worth noting that Gmanlives is also pretty bad at Doom.

Gman's pretty bad at his job in general, honestly.

18 hours ago, smeghammer said:

 

Probably best known outside Doom community as a member of Guns 'n' Roses in the early '00's:

 

 

 

That was very short-lived. 

31 minutes ago, QuaketallicA said:

That was very short-lived. 

Yeah, but very memorable. The whole 'Chinese Democracy' period divided the G'n'R fans as it was only Axl as an original member. I was in the Slash camp...

15 hours ago, Doomkid said:

This is so bizarre to me on multiple levels. I saw you trashing an authentically 90's-yet-good style wad in another thread, but now oldschool vanilla Doom is the pinnacle? It's just weird and almost at odds with itself. People who tend to think the iwad maps are top-class tend to also favor more oldschool styled wads.. At least, that's true for me and many others I know..

 

So which is it? Is oldschool stuff that truly feels like pure, 90's Dooming the pinnacle? Because here you seem to be bashing flashy GZDoom effects, but in that other thread you were also bashing authentically oldschool doom waddage.. With these factors considered: God damn, your view of what consitutes a "good doom wad" much be exceedingly narrow!

 

If someone came to me and said "Recommend me a Doom wad. I don't want flashy effects for newer ports, I don't want DoomCute or authentic 90's zaneyness, and Sigil is the greatest pwad ever made." I'd honestly be at a loss for what to show them. Some of the better designed mapsets with very few custom textures I guess? Scythe.wad tends to be a safe bet.. right?? You can't possibly think Scythe is bad: it's true, distilled, oldschool Dooming goodness purified to it's most potent level, so maybe that will please you and if not, who the hell knows.

That level was just not good. It was a complete novice messing around in the editor, nothing more. Regardless of what era it may try to emulate. And I don't see what a level with arcades and houses has in common with any of the original iwads. Of the four maps he released, only 2 were actual Doom maps, and those had absolutely no design put into them as far as gameplay is concerned.

As far as good custom mapsets go, there was one wad I played a while back that fits the bill and really impressed me, but I can't remember what it was called, and I've actually been going through my Doom and Doom 2 directories, testing every wad I have to see if I can find it, but I can't. If this sounds like a cop out, well just know that I've actually opened up every wad in both folders in gzdoom just to try to find it, and that's taken a long while.

Sgt. Mk IV's Hell on Earth Starter Pack was mostly pretty good. That was designed to be used in conjunction with Brutal Doom, but it was pretty good as far as non-linear level design is concerned. Other than that, I can't remember any that really stuck out to me, because I don't play Doom wads 24/7 and I don't remember the names (as is obvious) off the top of my head. Usually if I want to play Doom anyway, I just replay the vanilla game in DOSBox, occasionally doing Brutal Doom or Project Brutality in GZDoom if I feel like using excessive gore and different guns. If I want new Doom levels, I'd rather work on my own in Doom Builder 2 than play somebody else's. But again, I did play one somewhat recently that I remember the levels very distinctly but not the name.

9 hours ago, NaturalTvventy said:

Not to detract too much from Romero's work, which I agree is epic, but this idea of the shooting the evil eye to trigger something isn't original. Shooting eyeballs has been done countless times, just using the SW1SKIN texture instead of the evil eye. Here's me doing it a bunch in No End In Sight e3m6:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I think the only reason we never saw it with the evil eye before is because using the switch texture is better - it closes after it's shot as if in pain, which is a neat little narrative device.

You're absolutely right, hence why I put the new "mechanic" in quotes, because shooting walls as a switch is a feature that has existed since the original games. He just found a creative way to implement that vanilla feature so that it seems like a new mechanic. It was also usually used for secrets in the original game, not as a consistent feature of level design in the way used in Sigil. Or maybe it has been, I haven't played every wad to ever exist.

14 hours ago, Marn said:

 

I would argue that the disparity (if it exists) is because most of us are not a team of paid professionals working on an official product

Yeah. Everyone has their own standards of what is acceptable to release to the public. There's no QA, so it stands to reason that most of it will be mediocre. That said, mappers do have the advantage of not being constrained by deadlines.

On 9/1/2020 at 7:48 PM, Redneckerz said:

Romero Rosetinted Goggles

3 hours ago, QuaketallicA said:

It was also usually used for secrets in the original game, not as a consistent feature of level design in the way used in Sigil.

Note how Sigil introduces this feature: by locking you into a small room with that as its sole, well, eye-catching feature until you figure it out. In other words: it teaches you on its use before expecting the player to know about it in the wild.