When did you realise nuDOOM isn't actually christian at all? (Lore thread)

Last week I was thinking about DOOM Eternal lore.Argent Energy is made from Wrath Energy and Hell Energy.Hell energy is made from human souls.Where do the souls come from?Doomed humans in hell,I wondered.So I asked around,and it seems no codex has any concrete explanation,or no person in the places I asked really cared.Bad people go to hell,right?The unrepented sinners,the most immoral souls,those who went against God and didn't seek his mercy.

Nekravol - Part I

Well if bad people go to Hell,good people should go to Heaven,it's only right.Here is where my realisations started.

There is no real Heaven,only Urdak,of which I am sure because the developers themselves call Urdak heaven.

So then everyone goes to Hell?That'd be cruel.

But wait a minute,Hell must be for the sinners right?It's the Icon of Sin after all?

What is a sin?An immoral act.What is immoral?That which goes against God.

And we go back around - Immoral people who do not repent go to Hell,and the moral believers go to Heaven.Well if there is no Heaven,then there is no real christian God in DOOM.Only fake technological Ancient Gods.

So everybody goes to Hell.How do they get there if there is no God?Maykrs teleport them from the coffin or something?Maybe???

Maybe I wanted a concrete answer actually.I went and really reread the codexes from both nuDOOM games real good.So here's the deal Jack - Nobody goes to Hell.

Nobody goes to Hell,everything is fake.

We go back to Hell energy.Slain enemies are brought to Kalibas,the sightless judge,who judges the doomed whether they are worthy of having their soul taken or thrown into the depths of the Blood Swamps.The worthy then have their soul extracted and their body is left to turn into a demon.Notice how the demons bring the slain humans to the Judge.They get their bodies from enemies slain in battle.Humans don't go to Hell as an afterlife or get teleported,they actually never go there unless brought as a corpse.

So this breaks everything for me personally.I always had in the back of my mind that this is a christian game,maybe there will be real Heaven,maybe we will fight Satan in a future title?It might sound silly,but that was a genuine hope of mine.But it's all fake.

I don't know how the original Id envisioned DOOM,but I can confidently say nuDOOM is just another superhero multiverse shit.Go to save the earth,save the galaxy in the sequel,save the universe in the third one.Hell isn't even Hell.Hell is just some part of the """The Dark Realm""".It shouldn't even be called Hell.Demons aren't real demons,they are ALIENS.They are scary red aliens.Maykrs aren't angels,we know that from the start.God and Satan and Jesus don't exist,Christianity has literally 2 or 3 mentions in all of the codex and it's always mocking or condescending:

Olivia Pierce,in Argent D'Nur Decoded Entry 002:

Remaining Human Populations - Part I

I hope this doesn't come out really whiny.I enjoyed following the story,but after the thoughts I went through and described above,the story kind of lost something special.

Am I really late in my realisations?Is this thread redundant?Was DOOM's Hell and demons always more alien and less biblical?

Also, lore thread for anyone that still wants to talk about lore.I'm exited for the DLC and all that,but maan...I just want to fight Satan and hug Jesus...I guess I'll have to do with slaying some Ancient gods.

I don't think Doom from the 90's was that much of a Christian game either. (TBH thats a very weird way of putting it. Religious themes? Sure.) Christian implies there's a message to the original Doom. All art is political, sure, but Doom? That was just some dudes in the 90's who'd seen Alien too many times and didn't want to deal with the license.

Honestly looking too deeply into the moral and religious implications of Doom and it's story is misguided. I remember an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer where Buffy commented that an event in a cartoon they were watching would never happen and Willow replied something to the effect of "It's a cartoon, not a documentary." Same logic applies here. People will read what they want into things but at the end of the day, it's just a big silly goofy game and I sincerely doubt id intended to make any grand political or religious statements with it. They have never given any hints of being that kind of company.

Yeahhh, I think you were always going to be disappointed if you expected Doom's cosmology to be literally Christian.  And that's for the best, frankly.  

I feel like Doom being about Hell is for a similar reason for why before, id made an WW2 themed FPS with Adolf Hitler with a mech suit: it was like a rebel 90's attitude of making a game about one or two things that were taboo at the time, so there was a counter culter aspect to it.

Doom always had a unique version of Hell but with some details and lack of story, you could still think of whether or not it could have been "the Hell", even if it was just a bunch of people throwing stuff and mixing it for the sake of it.

The setting wasn't about a universe but rather just a cool idea, as its identity and in some ways, it was simple yet complex enough to warrant a creative modding scene that sort of built a universe for Doom.

We also had Wolfenstein's Spear of Destiny, some images of Jesus in Quake 1 and 3 and even something like the Holy Water Pistol.

And like one or two pathways shaped like upside down crosses and Doom 2's end text mentioning how Hell was the place were bad people go where they die.

So Urdak and even some parts of Hell indiciate a different image of Doom in regards to the current state of the industry, how we view stuff like demons nowadays and the team behind it.

Doom seems to be seen as a mix of sci-fi and fantasy, hence the pop culture references, the inclusion of lore in general (besides maybe marketability) and a lot of new elements going on in the story that make it more comparable to other franchises that otherwise weren't really comparable to Doom before.

Urdak feels like something out of a Doom novel instead for a Doom game.

With the "unified" chitin/crabshell/carapace/boney etc anatomy on 90% demons and their backgrounds, along with the simpler and less abstract Hell, the new games seem to have a more "cynical" take on the story of Doom despite wanting to embrace some whackyness.

Kinda like how the MCU will have characters doing snarky quips but still puts them in some "overdetailed/tactical" suits vaguely representing superhero costumes because the mindset behind it still thinks superhero suits are too silly for some audiences.

You could think of the "goofy"/almost puppet like demons of the old days as mockery of the human form with horns and something some people percieved as demons years ago while the new "more detailed and attempting to look badass" blocky demons of nowadays feel like something part of a safe trend derivative of an MMORPG or something trying to mimick the style of Darksiders. (i hope they rip off SMT next time, honestly)

Or how the "sci-fi" is super modern and extremely detailed when classic Doom was not only somewhat low-tech but even "used future" and ranged from depressing industrial waste facilities to some comfortable looking areas with blue carpet. (low tech aspect also explains the simplicity of pick ups that belong to the world while still having visual feedback, something that 2016 and Eternal seemed to have split into two different directions for each one)

Like a phrase that i repeat too many times and took from someone else who said it first: New Doom aims to be 90's when classic Doom felt 80's.

Other takes include: One is a saturday morning cartoon and the other is a B-movie; One stars a superhero when the other has an action hero; It sees itself as a comic book but feels more like a live-action movie based on a comic.

Doom 3 did have some alien looking demons but it's a similar case to the creepy Archvile just being next to the Barons and Lost Souls, so maybe we just needed more blatant demons in that game. (and we still had surreal designs defying logic like the Bruiser)(defying logic as a noticeable difference between aliens and demons being the supernatural vs science fiction i guess)

Classic Doom demons were pretty much a mix of actual Hell/demons and then sci-fi or fantasy elements for variety, like demons can come in different shapes and forms, like some attempt at representing a sin or nightmare or just because "It Just Is".

I expect that if id thought of a Heaven in Doom 1/2, it'd be like an inverse to Inferno or something where certain textures and enemies are "mirrored" for a Heaven theme.

The series' new lore is also that of a reboot iteration, so it's not really "expanding" the material that existed before but rather reinventing it while still having the same Doomguy but in a different version of the series. (a Doomguy that pretty much is based on some fan memes and outside material, which is why sometimes i find it funny when people complain that Youtube comes make the same jokes because i feel like it should have been expected)

Otherwise, a more faithfull Doom universe is pretty much a series of mods and wads with assets and elements that could potentially fit Doom, as if people studied the art style or tone of the games. (not all of them, of course but still)

Like, there's good parts of the story but it being good is more of a case of "despite being tied to Doom", so even if it's "not Doom", that may not come off as a negative i guess.

I mean it’s clearly not based off Christian, nor is it meant to be. If you were to meet angels in real life they probably wouldn’t look like how they are described it writings and such anyway, there is a lot of creative freedom on what heaven and hell are since not even humans have a solid answer to this everyone agrees with.

 The maykr angels aren’t traditional angels, they’re just beings so old and advanced their tech is not distinguishable from magic to a lesser being, so they influenced the whole galaxy and inspired religions and rewarded those who did believe.
 

Not too unlike the crazy ancient alien shows on history channel or something. For all we know, maybe this could have been how religions were actually inspired In real life if the supernatural doesn’t actually exist: just encounters with beings so advanced primitive human minds can’t comprehend it. That’s sort of what nuDoom’s take on it is.

It gets more confusing though when you consider that Hell is portrayed to actually be divine or super natural, and they just  see the Maykrs as fake gods. Urdak supposedly didn’t even know about the demons before they tailed Doomguy to Sentinal Prime, or if they did they weren’t being honest (which could be very possible). So if you interrupt it as heaven couldn’t exist without hell, that’s where things get a little tricky.
 

Doomguy ironically is the cause of modern Urdak and its practices (after Hayden snatched the Father at least), if he didn’t lead the demons over to the Sentinel priests, then Argent Energy wouldn’t have been made. So how the Maykrs operated before that, if they were any better, is unknown too. 

and why it is important that it isn't christian?
Satanism isn't christian, even when they already aknowledge Satan as their messiah, and it appearing under other names on different religions.

As for me, I would prefer the hellish imagery to be based on another religion.

Christianity depiction of Hell is rather clichee by now. Boring and not clear at all, with a lot of inconsistencies and pretty much a living contradiction of itself.
 

8 hours ago, P41R47 said:

Christianity depiction of Hell is rather clichee by now. Boring and not clear at all, with a lot of inconsistencies and pretty much a living contradiction of itself.

Yes modern Christianity is pretty much a pick and mix of elements from lots of sources. Even what we think of as the traditional depiction of Angels is relatively modern in comparison to the base religion itself.

Doom isn't a Christian game. It's a Gnostic game.

Yeah man, they ain't playing it in church. XD

Wait, it isn't?!

Yeah, I never felt like Doom’s Hell was an adaptation of Christianity’s Hell, and while I’m not religious, Christianity’s Hell never seemed like it would be a physical plain to me. It was a place for evil spirits and fallen angels.

I never believed that it’s somewhere you could go to while alive (even through dimensional teleporters), or that souls from there could take physical form as demons in different shapes and sizes, and could invade a physical plain (like Earth) and be shot and killed.

I never thought about how Doom’s Hell (or its physical demons) came to be, and frankly, I didn't care in the old games. Now I’ve paid attention to it because they made lore around it, but I think Doom’s version of Hell makes perfect sense for the Doom universe.

18 hours ago, LuckyEuro said:

I just want to fight Satan and hug Jesus... I guess I'll have to do with slaying some Ancient gods.

As others said, I've never felt that Doom was about battling on the jesus side. I think it's just battling for humanity, and that's it.

17 hours ago, oCrapaCreeper said:

The maykr angels aren’t traditional angels, they’re just beings so old and advanced their tech is not distinguishable from magic to a lesser being, so they influenced the whole galaxy and inspired religions and rewarded those who did believe.

As @oCrapaCreeper says, the point of the game, I think, is the realization that even those that claimed to be angels (Maykrs) are not less than an advanced species that takes advantage of their technlolgy to make other species (Sentinels and humans, but probably many other species) to believe they're gods. In that sense, the plot of the game (again, as far as I understand it) is that even those that claimed to be good are just using others for their purposes (in this case, using souls of dead people to transform them into energy).

It's like those explanations on internet that say that religions started by the encounter of humans and another species that came to visit us.

If you're going to use 'nuDoom' unironically I'm probably not going to take you seriously. 

Eventually this thread will just turn into people making fun of OP, mark my words.

On 9/9/2020 at 9:25 PM, Murdoch said:

 

Yes modern Christianity is pretty much a pick and mix of elements from lots of sources. Even what we think of as the traditional depiction of Angels is relatively modern in comparison to the base religion itself.

Yeah, I was also going to say, OP should recall that a lot of the depictions of Hell in our modern canon are not, properly speaking, 'Biblical' in their own right. (I use the word canon here in more of a literary than a theological sense, though honestly it's probably baked into the theology of many if not most lay Christians at this point, too.)  They're largely medieval or Renaissance in nature.  Milton and Dante were basically writing Bible fanfiction, and it's good stuff for what it is, but it shouldn't be confused with the lessons of the Bible.  You won't find much solid theological support for going to Hell and punching Literal Satan in the face. 

10 hours ago, Error-404 said:

Eventually this thread will just turn into people making fun of OP, mark my words.

"eventually"

7 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

You won't find much solid theological support for going to Hell and punching Literal Satan in the face. 

Which is unfortunate, as it would make the Bible a much more entertaining read.

Even the Bible itself as most people know it is a selectively edited, badly translated mess. The original Hebrew and Aramaic texts have many differences, and the Catholic Church and later variants simply excised what did not take their fancy. The original translators did not really understand the complexities of the languages they were referencing. I knew someone who was actually translating the original texts and one example he gave me was a line that got translated as something like "Through the eye of a donkey". But if you understand (I think) Hebrew properly, the correct translation is the far more sensible "Through the eye of a needle".

Since uh... forever? When did video games turn into a good medium for presenting any religion?

Doom always only took some ideas and references from it and other sources and the rest is its own thing...

I think a heavy focus on religion and faith could be done well in a video game, but likely not in the FPS genre; a dialogue-heavy RPG would be much more suited for it.  You'd have to have smart, thoughtful people who were committed to giving the subject the depth it deserves rather than just a pseudo-Christian power fantasy about Jesus firing a minigun at Satan.  

Basically imagine something like Disco Elysium but themed on religious beliefs instead of political ones.

(Shit, the way Jesus overcomes Satan in the actual Bible is through dialogue options, if you will.)

20 hours ago, MFG38 said:

Wait, it isn't?!

Never has been.

19 minutes ago, jerrysheppy said:

(Shit, the way Jesus overcomes Satan in the actual Bible is through dialogue options, if you will.)

The image of Satan failing a Fallout-style speech check is bizarrely hilarious to me.

8 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 

Which is unfortunate, as it would make the Bible a much more entertaining read.

Well, the Bible is not about entertainment :-)

8 hours ago, Murdoch said:

Even the Bible itself as most people know it is a selectively edited, badly translated mess.

I'm not sure which translation you are referring to but I know many good translations which are definitely not "a mess". They are translations and like every translation they try to translate either as analogous as possible to the source language or as analogous as possible to the target language.

8 hours ago, Murdoch said:

The original Hebrew and Aramaic texts have many differences, and the Catholic Church and later variants simply excised what did not take their fancy. The original translators did not really understand the complexities of the languages they were referencing.

Regarding the Old Testament: The "original texts" for the Old Testament are mainly in Hebrew. The first Greek translation of the Old Testament (LXX - Septuagint) was written ~ 250 B.C. by scholars who knew both Hebrew and Greek.

Regarding the New Testament: There is a scientific consensus that it was originally written in Greek and not in Aramaic (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_New_Testament). This was not unusual, since at the time of the New Testament, Greek had already been the lingua franca for several centuries, even during the time of Roman rule. In fact, the New Testament authors often quote the Greek translation of the Old Testament (LXX) rather than the Hebrew version.

8 hours ago, Murdoch said:

The original Hebrew and Aramaic texts have many differences, and the Catholic Church and later variants simply excised what did not take their fancy.

I am not sure which catholic translation you are referring to (there are several). The Roman Catholic Church was faced with the same problem in translation as any other publisher of the Bible (Old and New Testament): there were hundreds of handwritten copies (that is why I have written the word original text above in quotes), most of which are identical, but in minor details not. As a translator, one must then decide which variant to choose. To speak of extensive censorship does not do justice to this. But yes, the Catholic Church has also already taught things that do not correspond to the Bible text.

Of course all translations always have the disadvantage, as I wrote above, of being a translation. I therefore recommend critical readers to read critical editions such as the "Novum Testamentum Graece" (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novum_Testamentum_Graece), which lists the underlying Greek texts and highlights differences. Those who do not have the opportunity to learn Coine Greek can choose a free interlinear translation, e.g. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/19-24.htm

Other interesting ressources are https://codexsinaiticus.org/en/ (~ 4th century A. C) or the Septuagint (~ 3rd through the 1st centuries BCE) https://www.academic-bible.com/en/online-bibles/septuagint-lxx/read-the-bible-text/bibel/text/lesen/stelle/1/10001/ 

If you check the original Greek text, you will find that many of today's translations are good and we are not victims of a conspiracy of the Church. Of course, I still recommend every archaeologist, theologian or preacher to work with the Hebrew or Greek text, because the original text is always more precise than a translation. Furthermore, when reading the Greek or Hebrew text, one has the possibility to choose between translation options. But you should keep in mind that you probably do not know more about ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek than scholars who have studied it for decades and teach it at universities.

8 hours ago, Murdoch said:

 

I knew someone who was actually translating the original texts and one example he gave me was a line that got translated as something like "Through the eye of a donkey". But if you understand (I think) Hebrew properly, the correct translation is the far more sensible "Through the eye of a needle".

I also studied theology. I do not know which verse "Through the eye of a donkey" refers to, but "Through the eye of a needle" refers to Matthew 19:24: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”". The Greek word used there is indeed needle (see: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/19-24.htm). I know that some people argue that the Greek word for camel is possibly misspelled and could mean "rope", "mosquito" or "louse" - but these are only guesses, the (archaeological) text fragments available today clearly state that it is "camel".

The only true Christian game is Duke Nukem 3D. Thus spoketh the Lord.

@igg oh I make no claims of expertise in the matter, and that conversation took place probably 15 years ago so odds are I am remembering it inaccurately. It may be he was referring to a different translation, who knows.

I think another problem with the lore behind Hell/Urdak is if it puts Doomguy's reputation/power level in question, when Hell seems weaker at times.

Like, OG Doom had hitscanners and a more abstract Hell, then the new writing makes them feel like alien-like caveman demons that don't know how computers work and don't possesses the UAC guards actually carrying bullet based weapons.

Like, did Doomguy got stronger or did Hell just got weaker?

Because it's pretty clear these games were meant to reboot the setting like 3 but the idea of the Slayer possibly being Doomguy came later and part of why you'd assume the two were related is because of what inspired the "powerfull" depiction of the Doom marine in the first place.

Also, i guess a problem with the pop culture referencial aspect is how that at times may clash with the art style or even tone.

Like, the build engine trio has protagonists whose personalities/designs and settings sort of fit with the eras the games came in and/or the ones they wanted to reference.

You get the idea of the genres to expect to be dropped with some expections but still.

If Doom 1/2 were meant to feel 80's, they sort of nailed that b-movie aspect without even going hard on the pop culture stuff. (even if Doom wasn't the only series with a b-movie-ish method/spirit)

The new games want to drop references to 90's and 80's but have an art style that looks very 2010's, so it visually looks more comparable to other games in the market and current gen, both in the sci-fi and fantasy areas.

That's part of why i think a simpler art style would work besides just making it work better for classic designs or if the gameplay/engine/tech could benefit from it.

Like, whether it's a comic book/cel-shaded style, something actually retro like Quake/low poly styled models or even a mix of these two, it could have been a bit more blantant but honest of a throwback than designing extra life pick ups like literal 1-ups, which even had the "1-up" text modeled because for the sake of feedback, they could have made that "flat" like an old Doom sprite always facing toward you.

This sort of applies to what i said about the new games wanting to be cartoony but also "bad ass" as if it's considering some OG Doom stuff as too goofy for some audiences.

Something could be said about the music too since Bobby Prince's works might seem more "cartoony" compared to Mick Gordon's "edgier" works but at least Gordon's tracks have a strong identity to them.

Same could even apply to "Slayer" vs the nickname "Doomguy" as if someone wanted something on pair with Dragonborn or just a simple tribute to the band Slayer. (plot twist: Slayer is a reference to the character in Guilty Gear that Doomguy named himself after, since the gaming PC at the fortress of Doom makes it clear he's a gamer and it also turns out he plays fighting games)

Maybe Urdak is just the way it is because someone at id looked up angels in Bayonetta and thought they couldn't compete.

Speaking of Fantasy elements in Doom, i wonder if id also looked up Catacombs 3D or the obscure DS/phone title Orcs and Elves as reference.

I don't think either heaven or hell were meant to be literal in the Doom games, old or new.  I think the new games simply clarify that, rather than rewriting the lore.  We see no evidence of heaven or God until Doom Eternal, and then it becomes clear that the angels are simply a technologically advanced civilization, as stated before, so advanced that their technology looks like magic.  Likewise, I never considered Hell to be literal either, because um, demons are corporeal and can be killed.  And it's clearly a physical realm, that seems to have an internal working logic, indicating that they, too, operate under technology so advanced that it seems like magic.  After all, it's not like bad souls go their when they die; rather, living beings are dragged off to Hell and tortured until their soul energy is able to be removed from their bodies - after which those bodies become possessed and mutated by demons for their own purposes.  If it were the Christian hell, that wouldn't make sense, but it makes perfect sense as aliens that probably inspired myths about Biblical demons.  And we know that both civilizations have interacted with Earth in the past - for instance, the cultist base in the arctic.  I don't see any of this as contradicting the first games.

1 hour ago, geekmarine said:

I don't think either heaven or hell were meant to be literal in the Doom games, old or new.

I completely agree. Even classic Dooms hell was more influenced by pop culture than by the Old/New Testament.

1 hour ago, geekmarine said:

After all, it's not like bad souls go their when they die

Well, according to  Doom 2s ending ("You wonder where the bad folks will go when they die, now") hell originally was the place for bad souls. Doom Eternal is a bit more vague - maybe the "demon factories" we've seen in Nekravol were only built to maximize soul/demon output? We didn't learn much about hells origin in Doom Eternal. Since id Software connected classic and new Doom by introducing the multiverse, Eternals original hell might indeed have been the place for bad souls (as in Doom 2)?

I feel like "demons aren't meant to be physical" is something that never really was considered/thoughout by 90's id, even if it's true.

Because it kinda comes off as Doom not trusting/believing in its own setting that much, as if it's going "you know...".

Like, it becomes a bit more skeptical/cynical/even naive instead of being more confident and embracefull. (despite the more videogame-y/saturday morning cartoon direction)

Even if Bayonetta and SMT aren't that comparable, they make their angelic/demonic creatures more "fantastical" while the new Doom's almost seem to go on an opposite direction, of either putting too much sci-fi/logic in them or as if they're not as "magical".

It's as if new Doom doesn't really "believe in magic".

Even the classic Doom's and maybe a slight bit of 3 had some "magic" while the new games feel like they have a lot of "actually" moments in the lore, that tells a different story from what the classic games presented in the levels and some in-game/manual texts.

Despite the jokes about Doom being "the most Christian games", this direction feels rather "Atheist", even if not as bad as the 2005 movie and some of the novels.

Y'all muthafuckas need Super Noah's Ark 3D