Has This Game Become A Joke?

2 minutes ago, Buckshot said:

You're battling demons on planetary space stations after a corrupt mega-corporation/government agency opened a portal to hell. All because they killed your pet rabbit.

At what point was that ever supposed to be taken seriously?

I feel it's necessary to point out that you could take out all of the Daisy stuff and the basic story still works. It's not beyond all plausibility to think that a guy might be a teensy bit irritated at having not only their original homeworld trashed, but also the new home they made after literally going through Hell.

19 minutes ago, NoXion said:

I feel it's necessary to point out that you could take out all of the Daisy stuff and the basic story still works. It's not beyond all plausibility to think that a guy might be a teensy bit irritated at having not only their original homeworld trashed, but also the new home they made after literally going through Hell.

If we are talking from a classic story sense, with or without daisy involved.... it's still simply a space marine battling demons on moons and hell itself to save earth. Again... not quite sure such a story is going to win any sort of Pultizer Prize.

If we are talking the new DOOM storyline, they basically had to create backstory and lore and detail that didn't exist in the classics, and while it makes for a fun read... the level or detail it aims to explain seems almost comical and probably was intended to be.

Say, for example... the character Salacious B. Crumb from Return of the Jedi. It was the little rat looking thing that perched upon Jabba's lap and mumbled excitedly whenever Jabba did something vile. It was likely just some fluff for Jabbas Palace, and not really essential to anything other than to be there and was probably never designed or expected to have a detailed and lengthy backstory (or name, for that matter). Despite this, you can now find a 2-page long wookipedia article about the thing, full with extensive backstory and details that are as ridiculous and silly as the character itself, all because folks over the years just wouldn't settle for not having a name or backstory. The same logic can be applied to how DOOM's story has evolved. Not that its a bad thing... its more of a "for fun" thing. Just don't take it too seriously.

1 hour ago, Tetzlaff said:

Why, it's a good example? You could also put Doom 2016's Possessed side by side with the Doom Eternal Zombie and see the shift from creepy to goofy.

Two different species of zombie actually.  The 2016 version was the result of a Argent wave released by Olivia that mutated the humans into those strange looking mutant shamblers.  Doom Eternal zombies were more of a possession induced by the forces of hell willingly or otherwise.

But with that said, I really wished they kept most of the designs as additional variants in Doom Eternal; hell knights and barons especially.

2 hours ago, NoXion said:

That's a funny animation after the end credits sequence.

I think people are really desperately reaching.

Context never matters if you want to make a point in bad faith.

I have learned that much.

Unlike many nay-sayers i don't mind that Doom takes some current-day jabs or references at culture. The story of Doom is an evolutionary tale, not a cautionary one.

6 hours ago, Tetzlaff said:

 

Yes. Some of the monster designs in Doom 2016 were already too goofy for my taste, but they've gone overboard in Doom Eternal.

 

 

Not in a horror game. Doom has always been a horror series for me.

 

Now it has become this:

 

Right and it used to be this:

It doesn't matter what Doom is to you. It has always had goofy elements and this double standard argument annoys me. I honestly don't care if you don't like modern Doom but please, PLEASE make a valid argument if you are going to announce it from the rooftops. 

It’s okay to not like DE or Doom 2016, dude, but let it go. There’s bound to be a Doom game in the future that you will enjoy. Just be patient and play what you do like, and learn to write constructive criticism instead of just ranting about things you dislike.
 

The conversation will turn much smoother than it has in this thread if you took the time to truly explain why you dislike something and how it could’ve been better instead of just telling us that it’s lame or a joke because you didn’t enjoy it. 

The thing with Daisy is that she's an element that only comes up in the game's ending and TFC actually states she's yours, because before that, you also had Doomguy having a terrible time at his job and his partners being killed or zombified.

But the overall goofyness and campyness of Doom felt different back then.

With the name BFG, Daisy's severed head on a spike, the Nazis in the secret levels, an easter egg of a kid friendly kid character being killed...

Most of that has a contrast with Doom Eternal being "it's like a saturday morning cartoon, then the blood and Hell references shows up".

Even Wolfenstein 3D had Hitler say the German word for "shit!" when his armor broke.

If id titles were cartoons back then, they'd have a bit more edge than just gore and blood.

Doom is of course not the same thing as Postal 2, but like i said before, some Quentin Tarantino-esque or something like some Platinum games could work.

Like, dark humor consisting of someone saying "Big Fucking Gun" when some UAC nerd tries to refer to it as "Bio Force Gun" or someone making a crude joke about the Cacodemon's "forbidden holes".

In a alternate timeline where Animal Crossing existed for the SNES and had a game coming around the same time as Doom 2, it could have been Adrian Carmack himself to make a sketch about a dead Tom Nook or Isabelle. (this also reminds me if most of Eternal's presentation is to make Doomguy "safe" enough to be in Smash, since he even has a sword)

As for the zombies in 2016 vs Eternal, i feel like the art style could play a role because the Eternal ones could look scary, since there's a lot of generic zombies in fiction that look like them, but look scary.

It could be the colors, proportions or something about the actual textures.

I also thought that if there ever was a 90's Doom live action film with well done practifal effects, some people could have seen some enemies as scarier than they were in the actual games.

There's also textures like that one satyr stone face.

I guess the differences between the types of goofyness also come with the time periods and the fact Doom 1/2 was made by a smaller group compared to Eternal.

It's the difference between a B-movie and a Hollywood blockbuster.

Speaking of the games being cartoony, i feel like an actual cel-shaded art style with a specific color palette and textures could have done the game some favors.

5 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

Who's standards?

don't you know?, the elusive "boomer" fan who buggers everyone with his opinion /s

sometimes i feel like different tastes and opinions are not enough respected especially in such a diverse franchise. we have people doing mlp wads and others doing some of the most creepy stuff one could do on such an old engine(classic doom). Doom means a lot of different things to different people.

If i was id, i'd even think about splitting the franchise in different and parallel series that would convey different aspects of the universe without having to compromise too much... (i'd have more doom stuff to buy too ;p)

On 10/24/2020 at 3:15 AM, Doom-X-Machina said:

Battlemode is a fucking 100% joke and I hope whoever came up with the idea or approved of it no longer has a job at id Software.

It is THE single worst thing to ever carry the Doom name on it and I hope id Software know it.

I don't care what people say about me or anything, but I completely agree with you.

To me, Battle mode is the equivalent of a fighting game. If me and a couple mates were lounging together playing some video games and did some battlemode, I'm sure we would have a good time taking turns trying to gank the Slayer while shit talking and lazily cooperating to kill our mate.

But this isn't the case. It's online multiplayer and very competitive. Just like in fighting games, you will always have that "one guy" who over plays just slaughtering everyone and taking the game too seriously. You will probably get slaughtered and stressed and unsure what you're doing right / wrong and ask yourself "is it worth going through all this pain to start getting a grip and enjoying this? Will I ever actually like it?".

Then there is a no Deathmatch where it requires skill but not solely dependent on your individual mastery, a game mode true to the Doom franchise that modern id software tend to consciously avoid. So in the end, Eternal's multiplayer is a niche and disappointing.

1 hour ago, Chezza said:

To me, Battle mode is the equivalent of a fighting game. If me and a couple mates were lounging together playing some video games and did some battlemode, I'm sure we would have a good time taking turns trying to gank the Slayer while shit talking and lazily cooperating to kill our mate.

 

But this isn't the case. It's online multiplayer and very competitive. Just like in fighting games, you will always have that "one guy" who over plays just slaughtering everyone and taking the game too seriously. You will probably get slaughtered and stressed and unsure what you're doing right / wrong and ask yourself "is it worth going through all this pain to start getting a grip and enjoying this? Will I ever actually like it?".

 

Then there is a no Deathmatch where it requires skill but not solely dependent on your individual mastery, a game mode true to the Doom franchise that modern id software tend to consciously avoid. So in the end, Eternal's multiplayer is a niche and and disappointing.

I feel the same way, Battle mode works really well when playing with friends, but can be frustrating online.

Honestly, I think 4 man deathmatch could work really well with the Battlemode maps. They even make a game mode called "Demon"match where you fight each as the playable demons, almost like an arena class-based shooter.

4 hours ago, Deimos said:

If i was id, i'd even think about splitting the franchise in different and parallel series that would convey different aspects of the universe without having to compromise too much... (i'd have more doom stuff to buy too ;p)

I would have loved to see a game that combines the look and feel of 2016 with the gameplay of Eternal, but seeing how things are going it's probably gonna take years for that to even happen lol. I don't mind the story, just wish they'd told it in a better way and didn't have to get rid of / reduce Samuel into just another target. Really just wish they'd built on what they had already established with 2016 instead of doing all these crazy retcons.

27 minutes ago, sluggard said:

I would have loved to see a game that combines the look and feel of 2016 with the gameplay of Eternal, but seeing how things are going it's probably gonna take years for that to even happen lol. I don't mind the story, just wish they'd told it in a better way and didn't have to get rid of / reduce Samuel into just another target. Really just wish they'd built on what they had already established with 2016 instead of doing all these crazy retcons.

2016 was very well built and i think the kind of game that benefits not only of talent but also luck, maybe the tone/atmosphere and narration were the result of odd combinations of circumstances being the fruit of multiple projects crossing ways(doom 3 heritage + cancelled doom 4 elements and hugo's world), in some spots, less is more.
It's in my top 3 of the franchise.

I don’t think so... yet.

Although I kinda agree with you @The Strife Commando as I do worry that it is moving towards the more *jazz hands* “wacky” *jazz hands* humour rather than the old environmental / hidden humour.

For instance, you could play the first 3 games never noticing the silliness.

DooM 2016 was a little more in your face with it, but it felt like comedic relief in an otherwise serious game (and a lot of that was hidden - like the collectables).

I feel DooM Eternal is kinda on the edge with the meme / *comedy* stuff. 

1 hour ago, DooM Bear said:

For instance, you could play the first 3 games never noticing the silliness.

Yes... I am convinced no-one ever read the intermission screens, noticed the Cyberdemon's ass, the shape of various maps, the Revenant's *boink* death noise, the PDA jokes (Doom 3) and the Turkey game, Swan wearing sunglasses in the dark, or a morbidly obese monster called Mancubus...

27 minutes ago, seed said:

 

Yes... I am convinced no-one ever read the intermission screens, noticed the Cyberdemon's ass, the shape of various maps, or a morbidly obese monster called Mancubus...

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you that people will probably pick up on some of those things but it might only be one or two of them.

For instance,

• I never read the intermission screens until recently (last few years),
• you could miss the Cyberdemons ass as he is usually placed in front of you in the base games thus you probably won’t see his behind, 
• If you don’t use the mini map much, this is easy to miss
• I don’t think succubus’ are very well known (at least down here) so the mancubus could be just seen as a monster based on gluttony or something.

Again, I agree with you it would be hard to miss all of these things but compare that to DooM Eternal constantly smashing you over the head with meme worthy stuff :-P

Should probably add, I do really, really like the game :-D I am just a little concerned with the future direction of the humour :-) 

1 minute ago, DooM Bear said:

DooM Eternal constantly smashing you over the head with meme worthy stuff :-P

And classic Doom was extremely subtle about it... smh...

Fine, I'll go through your bullet points:

• Even if you did not, the non-serious nature is obvious at first sight, unless you're literally facing a different direction when they show up so you don't see them at all. Simply skimming through them is more than enough.
• The Cyberdemon is not a stationary enemy however, similar to the AV it's constantly moving around, even more so than it, so the player can see his ass from either side while he's roaming around and especially when infighting.
• Very much doubt that no-one has ever opened the automap on any level at least once to see a part of the map.
• No familiarity with the succubi is required, its silly nature is apparent immediately, purposefully or not.

Certainly goofier yeah, but at the end of the day as long as the game remains mechanically interesting i'll keep playing, the rest is background noise. It helps that, if I wanted serious, I'd look for a different medium. The atmosphere of 2016 and 3 are great but after a playthrough or two I won't come back for that. If the presentation of eternal is a joke next to the previous two editions, similarly the gameplay of those two are a joke next to eternal.

On 10/23/2020 at 4:24 PM, The Strife Commando said:

With the memes and skins it has, has it gone too far? They don't make the game bad of course, but other people would think the game is a joke as a result. I for one welcome it. It's like Timesplitters, where goofy fun is what the game's all about. Even though I'm not a fan of memes, it's nice to have weird stuff in a game with the seriousness being swept aside.

It have same problems as Serious Sam series
SS FE/SE - grotesque
SS 2 - Saturday-morning cartoon
SS 3 - wannabe realism
SS 4 - ehhhhh....a thing

Only difference is an order
Doom 1/2 - grotesque
Doom 3 - wanna be realism
Doom 4 - ehhhhh....thing
Doom Eternal - Saturday-morning cartoon

I would say TNT Evilution is a joke since it considered maps like Mt. Pain and Habitat good enough to ask money for. But I'm not the one to call something a joke just because i did something i didnt like.

But kidding aside, Most of the Silliness of eternal are super out of the way. Once you get to the actual meat and bones of the game, its a brutal and hectic dance where the main focus is the gameplay.

Doom has always had a silly side to it with its Cacodemon holes, Imp butts, and Exploding keens. Eternal is no different.

17 hours ago, Deimos said:

If i was id, i'd even think about splitting the franchise in different and parallel series that would convey different aspects of the universe without having to compromise too much... (i'd have more doom stuff to buy too ;p)

Reality isn't so simple though. You simply couldn't do all of that at once.

I think the topic should have been about if Eternal is a joke as in the lack of old-school multiplayer and the bigger focus on story.

2 hours ago, DSC said:

Reality isn't so simple though. You simply couldn't do all of that at once.

spin-offs are a thing in a lot of successful franchises so i think it really is that simple

2 hours ago, The Strife Commando said:

I think the topic should have been about if Eternal is a joke as in the lack of old-school multiplayer and the bigger focus on story.

They tried old school deathmatch in 2016 and no one played it. You think they're going to try it again after people repeatedly begged them for campaign DLC instead? And the story cutscenes can be totally ignored, which I should add is not possible in 2016. Please listen to Dr. Hayden pontificate for 2 minutes again because you died before a checkpoint in the Advanced Research Complex.

Humor is subjective.

For instance, I don't find the Cyberdemon's butt funny, I mean, what do you expect, you need those glutes to walk. But the name Mancubus brought a smile to my face. And weren't the hanged Commander Keens a troll towards Tom Hall rather than a wink to Id's past?

Same for Daisy. I saw people complaining about the story of TFC, but I think that the idea of demons going after the trouble of impaling a rabbit head on a spike to show how much of a bunch of meanies they are is much more hilarious than the demon cold-hearted revenge story TFC brought us.

Doom 2016/4 nailed it best in terms of atmosphere and humor to me. I loved the corporate babble, the cliché scifi story, the Demonic Invasion in Progress and realizing that Olivia Pierce was after all, a brainy girl on a mechanical chassis just cracked me up. That's... really devious.

I'm not a huge fan of memes and Dreamworks humor. But I know I'd rather have the Unicorn Doomguy become the official Doomguy than hear/read "rip and tear" even one more time.

Rip and Tear until it's done then 😉.

7 minutes ago, seed said:

Rip and Tear until it's done then 😉.

57 minutes ago, Super Mighty G said:

 

They tried old school deathmatch in 2016 and no one played it. You think they're going to try it again after people repeatedly begged them for campaign DLC instead? And the story cutscenes can be totally ignored, which I should add is not possible in 2016. Please listen to Dr. Hayden pontificate for 2 minutes again because you died before a checkpoint in the Advanced Research Complex.

To be fair, it had a two weapon limit and loadouts, so it wasn't as old school as some hoped for.

I remember seeing people trying to make "proper" MP mode in SnapMap, though but of course with limitations, so no DLC or other MP contents like the grenade launchers.

It's a shame that the mode may actually die with no proper access or preservation because there's a lot of great assets there, some even with lore.

Same is said about other online functions and BattleMode: Like, there should be "post mortem" plans for all of this.

46 minutes ago, Sunnyfruit said:

I'm not a huge fan of memes and Dreamworks humor. But I know I'd rather have the Unicorn Doomguy become the official Doomguy than hear/read "rip and tear" even one more time.

Besides that phrase being overused, it also comes off as treating Doom having a limited universe, even for outside/fan content that supposedly expanded the series.

Otherwise, we could have even had a NEDM or some obscure 2000's meme from Newgrounds or YTMND joke most people wouldn't notice.

Also, imagine a penguin themed skin for Doomguy literally named "Teh Penguin of D00mz" and the Doomblade is replaced with a spork.

22 hours ago, Deimos said:

sometimes i feel like different tastes and opinions are not enough respected especially in such a diverse franchise. we have people doing mlp wads and others doing some of the most creepy stuff one could do on such an old engine(classic doom). Doom means a lot of different things to different people.
If i was id, i'd even think about splitting the franchise in different and parallel series that would convey different aspects of the universe without having to compromise too much... (i'd have more doom stuff to buy too ;p)

The fact that Doom already has a history with reinterpretations and experimentation makes me wonder how would most people nowadays if, like, Doom 7 had a new art style, because it already happen like 5 times.

One fear of mine i have with this "Doom universe" is if it becomes the "main universe" meaning it would dictate what can or can't happen in Doom.

Which means if Doom ever had a dedicated lore, i doubt Doom 64, 3 or RPG could have happened.

Or mods or even people refering to the protagonist as "Doomguy" or a comic book coming up with some meme phrases.

Or even the abstract and "random" aesthetic in the classic games too.

Like i said, Doom isn't just a painting, it's also a brush and canvas.

The fact that the new games even have a lot of new ideas means it'd be interesting to see different takes on them, whether or not it's some enemy with different abilities or different take on some plot point.

Doom might be like how Dracula or Sherlock Holmes have histories with different interpretations and versions over time.

For example, the fact that the cancelled Doom 4 wasn't even meant to follow up Doom 3 made it seem like a bad thing: It was so detached from the series, it was even detached from 3.

But at the same time, it felt like a way of saying that Doom 3 was like some experiment, so perhaps that could have been the case with cancelled 4, even if you'd still try and change it to somehow save it.

For all the things that could happen with these new games, i feel like the true issue is if some cool idea can't happen because "it's lore breaking" like a mode with more than one playable Doomguy because "there can only be one Slayer", even though his original status was a UAC marine/blank slate and it'd be no different from fighting games when there can be more than one Ryu or Scorpion.

38 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

 

For all the things that could happen with these new games, i feel like the true issue is if some cool idea can't happen because "it's lore breaking" like a mode with more than one playable Doomguy because "there can only be one Slayer", even though his original status was a UAC marine/blank slate and it'd be no different from fighting games when there can be more than one Ryu or Scorpion.

To be fair; if the Marauders are anything to go by, the Night Sentinels themselves seem to have largely the same powers that the Slayer has, perhaps barring the implied invulnerability/ self Resurrection beyond death. So I don't know, maybe one day we can hope for co-op where your buddies are Night Sentinels? 

...man can dream... 

57 minutes ago, whatup876 said:

The fact that Doom already has a history with reinterpretations and experimentation makes me wonder how would most people nowadays if, like, Doom 7 had a new art style, because it already happen like 5 times.

One fear of mine i have with this "Doom universe" is if it becomes the "main universe" meaning it would dictate what can or can't happen in Doom.

Which means if Doom ever had a dedicated lore, i doubt Doom 64, 3 or RPG could have happened.

Or mods or even people refering to the protagonist as "Doomguy" or a comic book coming up with some meme phrases.

Or even the abstract and "random" aesthetic in the classic games too.

Like i said, Doom isn't just a painting, it's also a brush and canvas.

The fact that the new games even have a lot of new ideas means it'd be interesting to see different takes on them, whether or not it's some enemy with different abilities or different take on some plot point.

Doom might be like how Dracula or Sherlock Holmes have histories with different interpretations and versions over time.

 

For example, the fact that the cancelled Doom 4 wasn't even meant to follow up Doom 3 made it seem like a bad thing: It was so detached from the series, it was even detached from 3.

But at the same time, it felt like a way of saying that Doom 3 was like some experiment, so perhaps that could have been the case with cancelled 4, even if you'd still try and change it to somehow save it.

For all the things that could happen with these new games, i feel like the true issue is if some cool idea can't happen because "it's lore breaking" like a mode with more than one playable Doomguy because "there can only be one Slayer", even though his original status was a UAC marine/blank slate and it'd be no different from fighting games when there can be more than one Ryu or Scorpion.

If it was up to me doom would have little to no story/lore because this way people can appropriate the universe better, use their imagination and this can only add to the power fantasy. Also let us create our own doomguy/girl (also add the classic one by default)
About the comicbooky vibe of eternal that some people complain about, my fear is that comicbooky nowadays is synonymous with mainstream pop culture and that would drive them off from darker and edgier tones, which are seriously lacking in nowadays entertainment as investors are scared of this. Hearing McFarlane talking about comic book cinema is pretty eye opening and the public cheering when saying he wants people to feel uncomfortable and scare the shit out of them with his world with the next spawn movie makes me hope this bland era is soon coming to an end. Joker and Venom movie were precursor to this maybe.
People forget too easily why id put gore, pentagrams and swastikas by the metric ton in their games to begin with. Fuck karen :p