The Ancient Gods -- review from someone who DIDN'T like it

You know what’s funny? We’ll give solid counter arguments to most of NeoWorm’s “”points”” but he’s just gonna ignore all of them and keep on spouting this bs abt “Player freedom” or something.

3 hours ago, Archvile Hunter said:

Doom Eternal is not a sandbox, it's a dance floor with the demons as your dance partners. You are allowed to freestyle within this dance of death's parameters, but if the demons don't like your moves, you die. That is not bad design, it's just how the game works.

Love this analogy.

Many others have stated, just because a game does not allow the player to have complete freedom does not mean it is objectively bad. Certain games offer certain styles of play, and it is ok if you do not like it, just keep in mind that others might. Even with that said, Doom Eternal still gives the player plenty of options. For example, let's take the Arachnotron: you could take out his current with a scope shot, sticky bomb ballista, or even rocket launcher. Alternatively, maybe you want to stun with a grenade or ice bomb to get in close with a blood punch or SSG. If you want to kill him real quick, then bombard him with full auto or micro missiles. These are just some of the ways you can kill an Arachnotron efficiently. Sure some of these methods are harder to pull off, and some are less effective than others, but the options are still there to mess around with. Under The Mayo actually made a great video on this; I would recommend checking it out:

On 10/22/2020 at 5:33 PM, jazzmaster9 said:

I also fail to see how being Dark Souls is a bad thing

I can see how if one does not like an other franchise's philosophy it could be a bad thing to have it soaking over a franchise you like.
Obviously if someone likes punishing mechanics he won't see an issue and it's subjective, hence the "not seeing" part...
I for one don't like this kind of masochistic philosophy coming too close to Doom, i never played it for that kind reasons, on the contrary.

I tried most of the souls games but only finished 2 of them because quite frankly i have more fun elsewhere. Not really my idea of fun.
To have fun with these you have to master them to the millimeter and see the whole combat as a precise sequencing that defeats the organic feel that people usually seek in these games(Doom/Quake etc.).

@Super Mighty G you again argue about difficulty, I argue about options. Not the same thing.

@Archvile Hunter @BetaMarine the same thing. You don't have to change your game philosophy to give player options, Eternal doesn't do that. It have it's philosophy but does one step beyond and limits you even within the philosophy of hectic shooter. Eternal is not a dance floor, it's single DDR track on repeat.

You brought up Sekiro, but this applies to any Soulsborne games. If Sekiro was like Eternal, it wouldn't let you skip any fight and you would have to take all fight with the exact equip that designer decided you should use head on the second you encounter them. Anything else would mean you die. It's not the case and it didn't retract from the game difficulty at all.

@Hunting4r2d2 no, not Mayo. That guy overanalyzes bugs and things they are features. It's the biggest Eternal fanboy I've ever seen and he fails completely at understanding any points poeple bring.

7 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

Eternal is not a dance floor, it's single DDR track on repeat.

You're implying there's zero player choice in Doom Eternal. That's just wrong, and you know it is.

7 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

If Sekiro was like Eternal, it wouldn't let you skip any fight

There are actually some fights in Doom Eternal you can run right past, not all of them lock you in. Though I don't think most people care about skipping fights since said fights are why we play the game in the first place.

7 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

no, not Mayo. That guy overanalyzes bugs and things they are features. It's the biggest Eternal fanboy I've ever seen and he fails completely at understanding any points poeple bring.

So because he likes the game and you don't, that makes him a fanboy? And when did he ever "overanalyze bugs and think they are features"?

Idc anymore, this whole thread is stupid. I feel like both sides have good arguments so that’s cool, but then you have the real toxic stuff and I feel this thread has devolved into the toxic side, I’m out

10 hours ago, NeoWorm said:

, not Mayo. That guy overanalyzes bugs and things they are features. It's the biggest Eternal fanboy I've ever seen and he fails completely at understanding any points poeple bring.

So UnderTheMayo makes a video of new stuff you could do with Doom Eternal’s mechanic, showing that the game gives quite a lot of player freedom and now you call it “bugs”? Wtf is with that? Strafe-jumping was a bug in Quake and got turned into a feature so I don’t see how finding new things to do in DE is a “bug”.

11 hours ago, Deimos said:

I can see how if one does not like an other franchise's philosophy it could be a bad thing to have it soaking over a franchise you like.
Obviously if someone likes punishing mechanics he won't see an issue and it's subjective, hence the "not seeing" part...
I for one don't like this kind of masochistic philosophy coming too close to Doom, i never played it for that kind reasons, on the contrary.

I tried most of the souls games but only finished 2 of them because quite frankly i have more fun elsewhere. Not really my idea of fun.
To have fun with these you have to master them to the millimeter and see the whole combat as a precise sequencing that defeats the organic feel that people usually seek in these games(Doom/Quake etc.).

I can definetely see that. Different strokes for different folks. Glad to see fair discussion still exists here :)

On 11/10/2020 at 7:27 AM, NeoWorm said:

 

@Hunting4r2d2 no, not Mayo. That guy overanalyzes bugs and things they are features. It's the biggest Eternal fanboy I've ever seen and he fails completely at understanding any points poeple bring.

Debating you is clearly a waste of time. Presented with evidence you say "oh I'm not looking at that". Enjoy Doom Eternal living in your head rent free. 

I don't blame Neoworm for not wanting to watch a video where the thumbnail depicts a badly cropped image of a crying baby, implying that all people who hold such an opinion are crybabies.

7 hours ago, Doom64hunter said:

I don't blame Neoworm for not wanting to watch a video where the thumbnail depicts a badly cropped image of a crying baby, implying that all people who hold such an opinion are crybabies.

That might be a case of "you may be correct but you're not right" when it comes to how people communicate their points.

In this day and age, more people look at how someone portrays their message before the message itself and it results in some counter-action affect where the second party just feels like an opposite of the first.

When you think about it, someone that sounded immature or talked in some weird vocabulary probably said something you could have agreed with or understand to some degree.

I feel like some people here probably wouldn't even admit they could have understood someone or even agree, if it just wasn't for the attutide.

Which is technically understandable, but it also feels like it's just naturally easier to make someone sound more immature than they are, then just going "i think you're overreacting but i can see some of your points".

There's the "respectfully disagree" but not enough "disrespectfully agree".

Basically, if more people saw that MatthewMatosis clip he did about Doom, in some ways, he could have easily been called either a "contrarian boomer" or "corporate shill" by both sides.

And that could be how you get the "middle".

I don't think we are hitting the nail on the head here. Me and other players who prefer doom 2016 prefer it for the way the story is narrated and his look and feel. Most of players praised the changes in the combat style, so I'm not sure why we are even going there. Then some said some fights feel a bit too much, I can relate because some moments are frustrating, but also this is why there is a sliding scale of difficulty. I think ID come with the right decision. UV is the hard difficulty, not the norm. And a average player will need to put some effort into it. But is doable. You can go in a boss fight, take like 5/6 attempts (sometimes more) and eventually come on top. Nightmare is the hardcore difficulty and push the bar far more up. Still look on YouTube, there are players literally breezing trough it. Ultra nightmare is for them (and they do fail runs believe me, if you follow some of the top on twitch you can see before having that perfect run they fail a lot).

The main point is, why the story had to be warped so much? It feels it lends more on fantasy than sci fi and to me it does not feel right. From the premises of 2016 there are too many loopholes and things I can't really get behind. On the other side I appreciate the fact he goes back to a colourful world depiction where there are not only shade of greys, where hellish landscapes are more creatively created and they have a organic feeling that resembles classic doom, even if they don't reach the perfect fusion of tech and hellish of classic doom. 

Then there are the floating page issue. In doom 2016 I appreciated the slayer testament narrated with a ominous voice, and that lines become a legendary meme, meaning how much people did enjoy that. And you still had logs, in that case in the forms of tablets that is more acceptable than floating pages. I don't hate the concept. In eternal it works I think, because eternal has a "cool down" section in the fortress. When you are there you can chill, open your interface and read all the stuff, assign upgrades, look at Easter eggs and so on. It's the chill section, where you can absorb information or go down the basement and try a couple of strategies and weapon mods.

Doom 2016 was a journey without respite, where the rhythm don't change. In doom eternal you have sections where the game cool down a bit and stop throwing stuff at you, but since the combat is much more brutal, it wasn't really able to keep that for the all game without exhausting players. 

But also Doom 2016 was more compelling and always pushing you to see how it ends, is a journey that has a start and reach a end and does this in a way we are familiar with (starting from Mars and ending in hell). Eternal does give us scope, but it's more confused in the journey development, sending us on earth then on sentinel prime and to hell is a very fragmented way where the continuous is broken and the collant that is supposed to keep the journey together is simply not there.

I believe no one wants a doom 2016 part 2, but a doom eternal with a 2016 feeling would have been much more appreciated. For me was the perfect balance of arcade elements and immersion. Maybe doom eternal look is more faithful to the classic game, but the classic game was bounded by technical limitations that are no longer there, this was understood and revamped in 2016.

Also I believe there is a misconception that stuff like evilution or Deus Vult or other siege maps represent classic doom, while we should look at knee deep in the dead, the shores of hell and inferno instead of other wads.

On 11/13/2020 at 10:25 AM, Doom64hunter said:

I don't blame Neoworm for not wanting to watch a video where the thumbnail depicts a badly cropped image of a crying baby, implying that all people who hold such an opinion are crybabies.

I've seen the video and the video is bad. I even commented on it on youtube. Mayo made 10 minutes video about how you can use mod for autoshotgun to regenrate one more ammo if you obsesively micromanage the stuff and presented it as some kind of revelation of hidden mechanic. But when you know how gamedesigners operates you will immediately know that this was ballance fix added as an aftertough when they founf out from playtesting that the autoshotgun was useless with their ammo limits. That's why I can't take that joker seriously. He doesn't know what he is talking about.

On 12/6/2020 at 3:27 PM, Kaos said:

I don't think we are hitting the nail on the head here. Me and other players who prefer doom 2016 prefer it for the way the story is narrated and his look and feel. Most of players praised the changes in the combat style, so I'm not sure why we are even going there. Then some said some fights feel a bit too much, I can relate because some moments are frustrating, but also this is why there is a sliding scale of difficulty. I think ID come with the right decision. UV is the hard difficulty, not the norm. And a average player will need to put some effort into it. But is doable. You can go in a boss fight, take like 5/6 attempts (sometimes more) and eventually come on top. Nightmare is the hardcore difficulty and push the bar far more up. Still look on YouTube, there are players literally breezing trough it. Ultra nightmare is for them (and they do fail runs believe me, if you follow some of the top on twitch you can see before having that perfect run they fail a lot).

 

The main point is, why the story had to be warped so much? It feels it lends more on fantasy than sci fi and to me it does not feel right. From the premises of 2016 there are too many loopholes and things I can't really get behind. On the other side I appreciate the fact he goes back to a colourful world depiction where there are not only shade of greys, where hellish landscapes are more creatively created and they have a organic feeling that resembles classic doom, even if they don't reach the perfect fusion of tech and hellish of classic doom. 

Then there are the floating page issue. In doom 2016 I appreciated the slayer testament narrated with a ominous voice, and that lines become a legendary meme, meaning how much people did enjoy that. And you still had logs, in that case in the forms of tablets that is more acceptable than floating pages. I don't hate the concept. In eternal it works I think, because eternal has a "cool down" section in the fortress. When you are there you can chill, open your interface and read all the stuff, assign upgrades, look at Easter eggs and so on. It's the chill section, where you can absorb information or go down the basement and try a couple of strategies and weapon mods.

Doom 2016 was a journey without respite, where the rhythm don't change. In doom eternal you have sections where the game cool down a bit and stop throwing stuff at you, but since the combat is much more brutal, it wasn't really able to keep that for the all game without exhausting players. 

But also Doom 2016 was more compelling and always pushing you to see how it ends, is a journey that has a start and reach a end and does this in a way we are familiar with (starting from Mars and ending in hell). Eternal does give us scope, but it's more confused in the journey development, sending us on earth then on sentinel prime and to hell is a very fragmented way where the continuous is broken and the collant that is supposed to keep the journey together is simply not there.

 

I believe no one wants a doom 2016 part 2, but a doom eternal with a 2016 feeling would have been much more appreciated. For me was the perfect balance of arcade elements and immersion. Maybe doom eternal look is more faithful to the classic game, but the classic game was bounded by technical limitations that are no longer there, this was understood and revamped in 2016.

 

Also I believe there is a misconception that stuff like evilution or Deus Vult or other siege maps represent classic doom, while we should look at knee deep in the dead, the shores of hell and inferno instead of other wads.

This. This is the problem with Doom Eternal. It’s not “shitty micro-management” or “it needs to be Doom 2016 no. 2” but the cohesion of the player experience. The mechanics are there, the gameplay is fun but the pacing, story is wack. Doom might not need a good story, but it could atleast have good atmosphere, themes and a thrilling experience. Idk why that was dropped.

I remember how the Spirit was made to justify the microwave mod, which is akin to Shamblers in Quake resisting rockets, while zombies could only be killed by it. (also, maybe the ghost enemies in Heretic)

But the rumors of id nerfing the ice grenade (and also the Unmaykr + Overdrive, which already happened), makes me think they should make something new (whether it's enemies or something else) to balance those weapons without changing them directly.

Something about those major balances in a single player game just seems a bit odd.

I agree with the original post in this thread. Doom Eternal's jumping mechanics are not what I'm looking for in a Doom game. Simply put, I want to fire up the game, maybe for 30 minutes at a time, and kill every demon that walks in front of me. I also agree the level of difficulty in Eternal is significantly harder then the previous games. Some people like it, some don't, but that's why modding in Doom would have been a great addition to the game. I would love to have a Doom Eternal experience without the jumping mechanics, and slightly less difficult.

This shouldn't be important, but I see a lot of people in this thread saying "they don't understand how game designers work". I've been in the game industry now for almost 12 years(good lord), I understand how games are made, and they added a mechanic that's simply completely off brand from Doom, and I'm one of the paying customers that hated the jumping mechanic. 

6 minutes ago, icecoldduke said:

I agree with the original post in this thread. Doom Eternal's jumping mechanics are not what I'm looking for in a Doom game. [...] The jumping mechanics were just off brand for Doom. 

During my first run I didn't like them either. But after playing the main campaign for several times I actually like them since they put some variety in the game. 

1 hour ago, igg said:

During my first run I didn't like them either. But after playing the main campaign for several times I actually like them since they put some variety in the game. 

I just did a replay of the game, and I'm beyond frusterated at the purple ooze that slows you down. The jumping bits might not be so bad if you didn't fall into a puddle of purple garbage that makes you walk slow as hell. 

Just now, icecoldduke said:

I just did a replay of the game, and I'm beyond frusterated at the purple ooze that slows you down. The jumping bits might not be so bad if you didn't fall into a puddle of purple garbage that makes you walk slow as hell. 

What's the problem with the ooze? The only dangerous part is in Exultia when the Arachnoton attacks you while you're in the ooze. I think the ooze is just an anti pattern so you enjoy your standard speed.

Just now, igg said:

What's the problem with the ooze? The only dangerous part is in Exultia when the Arachnoton attacks you while you're in the ooze. I think the ooze is just an anti pattern so you enjoy your standard speed.

It slows down gameplay for no good reason. I don't play the game straight through i play in small increments and it nukes the pacing. 

On 10/21/2020 at 7:09 PM, SulfurOccult said:

I've never understood this "jumping puzzle" complaint. What puzzle? There is no puzzle.

This term has become very common in Destiny and I hate it.  Every Destiny video I watch when someone says "jumping puzzle", I'm like "You mean platforming section?"

It doesn't bode well to see the term popping up in other communities as well.

38 minutes ago, VanaheimRanger said:

This term has become very common in Destiny and I hate it.  Every Destiny video I watch when someone says "jumping puzzle", I'm like "You mean platforming section?"

 

It doesn't bode well to see the term popping up in other communities as well.

There's nothing wrong with calling it a jumping puzzle. If I was making a game with a similar mechanic I'd probably call those areas jumping puzzles. 

The timed platforming segments in the Blood Swamps pissed me off.

Not because I didn't enjoy them, but because they reminded me that we haven't had a real Tomb Raider game in twenty years.

They talk about the purple ooze in this livestream.

ha, I watched that video earlier and liked it.. mainly because I remember before Eternal came out how Hugo was pumping the idea of the game being a racecar and they had to telegraph everything in loud colours so you wouldn't miss it.

He missed a lot there :D

Ammo warnings, green pentagrams for progress, you name it, he missed it. Yes he hasn't played in a while (he says) but that makes him the perfect example for a newbie to the game. Maybe their signposting isn't as effective if the game director missed it after a short time away from the game.

You also notice he mentioned how hard it is to concentrate on playing and talking at the same time, which it is. People make fun of let's players for making stupid mistakes in games while trying to be entertaining without understanding how difficult it is. 

13 hours ago, Super Mighty G said:

They talk about the purple ooze in this livestream.

That's such bad design. If the purpose of the ooze is to force players to use mods, that's stupid. You don't slow down the pacing of a game that is entirely fast paced, so you can force in another mechanic. That's bad design. 

Has anyone found in the def files how to mod the ooze so it doesn't slow down pacing?

@icecoldduke I don't think you truly understand the purpose of the purple goo sections in the game. Sure, it's annoying having your mobility taken away, but that's the point. When you drop into the sewer in ARC Complex and you're stuck in purple goo with a Hell Knight quickly approaching, you're forced to consider your offensive options much more carefully, since you can no longer dash out of his range.

Every other Hell Knight in the game could be killed with just the Shotgun or Heavy Cannon, as long as you kept dodging his attacks. But not this one. You have to use your abilities to take him down quickly. Ice Bomb to freeze him, Chaingun to falter, Chaingun Shield, Grenades, Blood Punch, Quick Swap. None of these have been necessary to deal with Hell Knights earlier in the game, since all you needed to stay alive was the Dash, but that is suddenly no longer an option.

Once you learn the game, you can absolutely humiliate this Hell Knight, even though that encounter might at first have seemed unfair to you first time around. The idea is that by forcing you to use your other available tools here, you will naturally want to use them later on, after you've noticed how powerful they are.

On repeat playthroughs this learning experience is of course absent, but these sections take up about 2 minutes of the entire campaign's length, so venting online about something so miniscule seems silly to me.

If you don't like the platforming sections, fine, I see you'd rather just be teleported to the next arena and continue fighting immediately, but I personally enjoy these sections and find quickly navigating them really satisfying. Some sections I do find to be wasting my time are the couple of unskippable cutscenes, elevator rides, and the swimming sections in Taras Nabad, which I think even Hugo Martin admitted don't ultimately add anything to the experience.

@Archvile Hunter The entire point of Doom is to humilate everything in your path. Doom is supposed to be an easy game. Doom is supposed to be a game were you blow the shit out of all the demons that stand in the way between you, the keycards, and the exit. That's it. It seems a lot of the hardcore gamers out there like the new additions to Eternal, and that's fine, but I'm not a hardcore gamer, and I'd argue most of the Doom players out there, aren't hardcore gamers either. 

The reason we are having this discussion, is Doom eternal is not moddable. You can't make custom levels, so players are stuck with the content id software shoveles out for the game.

I personally don't like were Doom is going. Give me a traditional shoot the shit out of everything experience, stop trying to slow down my movement, let me be as OP as possible, that's what Doom is. 

2 hours ago, icecoldduke said:

Doom is supposed to be an easy game.

Says who? Also Plutonia says hi.