RELEASED! - A Night On The Sauce: a first map for ZDoom ports

Since no one has tested your map yet I though I'd have a crack at it. Firstly, congratulations on publishing your first map, and secondly, your map is great. I have tested maps before, but I'd like to construct/organize my thoughts better, so tell me what you think.

Gameplay

Your map's combat is really solid, frantic and fun. The resource management aspects of the map come into play nicely. There is enough ammo to get by, the player just has to use their available resources wisely and does not put a dampener on the overall combat. Your traps are good, too my favorite is the rocket launcher room trap, which killed me many a time. The only area of the map I did not care for, is the dark server room(?) with the platforms that lower. Fighting spectres and hit-scanners in the dark really isn't that fun and is quite frustrating. The final arena, however, is really fun and I had a blast in the light-slaughter arena( I'm not that big a fan of slaughter maps, but I had a blast.

Visuals

Visually speaking, your map has a very clean, yet stylized look to it. No visual clutter or decorations that get in the way. You make good use of the OTEX texture set to make your environments moody and ominous.

Bugs

You mentioned in your post that this is a beta and that there are likely to be bugs. I did find a few visual bugs( I'm not sure about the unpegged door texture, if that was intentional or not so I'm just putting it here just in case:

One bleeding texture, one missing texture and one secret door without a lower unpegged option( If this was intentional, do let me know). That's about it.

Conclusion

Your map was really good  both visually and combat wise. It is evident to see you worked very hard on this, which I respect. I hope to see more of you, man.

Edit: @Biodegradable, @ElPadrecitoCholo, you interested? It's a good map.

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48 minutes ago, Silhou3tte said:

you interested? It's a good map

@Silhou3tte On a scale of 1 to 10 in difficulty, how hard is the map really? Does it become painful like Plutonia or worse?

Just now, ElPadrecitoCholo said:

 

@Silhou3tte On a scale of 1 to 10 in difficulty, how hard is the map really? Does it become painful like Plutonia or worse?

 About 5-6? Nothing like Plutonia, more resource management based and you have to be more thoughtful in your exploration. I died only a handful of times( mostly due to my own negligence). 

5 minutes ago, Silhou3tte said:

 About 5-6? Nothing like Plutonia, more resource management based and you have to be more thoughtful in your exploration. I died only a handful of times( mostly due to my own negligence). 

Ufff, damn... well, I'll take a quick look at it then, see what comes out, thanks there for the recommendation from this Wad, buddy.
 

1 minute ago, ElPadrecitoCholo said:

Ufff, damn... well, I'll take a quick look at it then, see what comes out, thanks there for the recommendation from this Wad, buddy.

Difficulty is more subjective, in this case, as you're probably more skilled than I am. I'm just terrible at describing how difficult something is ;)

3 minutes ago, Silhou3tte said:

Difficulty is more subjective, in this case, as you're probably more skilled than I am. I'm just terrible at describing how difficult something is ;)

I understand buddy, don't worry

Holy shit. I will start off by saying that this is an excellent map, especially for a first map. This might even be one of the best "first maps" I've ever seen.

Layout & Design: 11/10 

Makes me feel really sad.

Gameplay: 10/10

Perfect all the way throughout, though I do have some small nitpicks. The usage of cover & the way enemy encounters are set up is really nice. I'm not a giant fan of the strict resource management however since it immediately fucks over impatient/lazy players (like me) if you don't do it well. Not sure why the chaingun is the last weapon you get added to your arsenal though. Legendary last fight.  Overall, it's VERY good gameplay and it basically fights tooth & nail to not be a shooting gallery, something that you find very often in other maps.

Detailing: 9.9/10

Would be a 10/10, but there were some things I have to nitpick about so... 

1. These damn unchanged door tracks. They keep on popping up throughout the map.

2. Repetitive DOORTRAK use on lifts.

DOORTRAK is for doors. Usually you'd find something like the Brown Support texture for lifts where this DOORTRAK is at.

Now I'm not saying that DOORTRAK is JUST for doors, no no. I've seen some clever uses for it (cough cough, TRAKTION, cough cough, 50 shades of graytall) but IMO this is pretty ugly. 

Overall: 11/10.

Extras: I think this wad would go great with Final Doomer's Hellboundguy since Hellboundguy is designed with powerful weapons and tight resource management in mind. I'm gonna try that out.

Oh man. I love the implementation of the cover boards here. It turns the arena into an actual arena instead of a bullet hell.

Hey guys,

Thanks so much to everyone who has played so far, I'm really happy with the reception and feedback! You are all too kind. This is just a quick post to let you know I'm working on fixing the issues you've raised and will be posting an updated file as soon as it's ready :)

Hi Again,

I've fixed up all of the bugs people have found so far and updated the download link in the original post with the new version. To add to what I said before, I'm really glad everyone is mostly enjoying the map so far. 

@Silhou3tte - congrats on being the first playtester, I thought your feedback was clear, well-organised and to the point :) I've debated changing the server room to have some strobing lights, or maybe just be a little brighter (there is a secret in this area that will help you with the darkness though, hint ;) - however I'm going to wait a while, see what others say, and have a think about this to see if I can come up with a more imaginative solution.

@thelazyqdude- that's some glowing feedback, glad you had fun! The doortraks have been a constant source of annoyance for me as well. I've done another pass through the map and (hopefully) fixed all of the remaining untraked/un-unpegged textures now. I was also in two minds about the doortrak use on platforms, I've changed it now as you suggest to a support texture that's a bit easier on the eye. I'm also pleased you especially liked the hub arena with the cover boards, it's one of my favourite parts of the map too and I worked hard to try and make it interesting.

@ElPadrecitoCholo- thanks for your interest, don't let the difficulty of Ultra Violence put you off - I've fully implemented all difficulty settings in this map to cater to players of all skill levels, while trying to preserve as much of the spirit of the gameplay as possible. HNTR or HMP should still be fun :)

Thanks everyone, and keep the feedback coming!
 

Impressive map. I understand the scarcity is intentional but having to use the pistol feels like cleaning up the toilet. id Software should issue one last update for DooM and remove the pistol. The only reason I persevered was because the level looked so polished and then just when I was about to get fed up cleaning the toilet I found the Mr. Muscle (aka berserk).

A Night On The Sauce

Ultra-Violence || GZDoom || Q2_Doom

Status:

-Deaths → 0

-Saves → none

Open This:

A really impressive map, in every sense of the word, and it is also really complicated, but not to the point of being as irritating as the Chaingunners on Plutonia, although there are very ugly encounters at every step that is taken during the exploration of This site, in addition, the architecture used here is really good, and interesting, although it does have its small flaws as a user had mentioned in previous comments, but that if, everything else was quite entertaining, except the initial part, It is horrible to always start with a pistol, since the original Doom is a disgusting thing that does not help much in combat, beyond killing one of those zombies with a shotgun to equip yourself with something better, but hey, in the rest Of the structures, I have liked many of the areas, both for how they look aesthetically, and for the combats they offer, there are so many that I will not be able to mention them because I no longer remember some of them well, but yes, the area f Final is not among my favorites, not even by far, and finally, the enemies here, there are many more weak enemies than resistant, but they are a headache when you don't have better weapons to deal with those damned, and when you already have better weapons, that's when things get ugly between encounters, less desirable enemies are the ones that appear, and so on, many areas present that case, and the last part is no exception. In conclusion, it is a good map, really great and excellent, both visually and in combat, but if I'm honest... these kinds of maps are no longer for me, I no longer feel with the same desire that I had before to play Big maps, and I'm even starting to want to stop playing Megawads because of my inconveniences so... I hope you continue to make great maps colleague, you really have potential for it, but I could not be more present to test them, unfortunately, for So, good job and make your jobs more exciting.

3 hours ago, PurityControl said:

thanks for your interest, don't let the difficulty of Ultra Violence put you off

It is not so much because of the difficulty, believe me that I have already tried worse maps with a Plutonia theme, so I know perfectly what things I am going to face, in reality it is more because of the time I have, I do not like to leave things by halves because It is of no use to me, since the inspiration and concentration of that moment lower me...

6 hours ago, PurityControl said:

there is a secret in this area that will help you with the darkness though, hint ;)

I actually found that secret, only after I cleared out the the entire room :)

Hi guys,

I've updated the OP with a new download link (beta 1.2). The changes in this version are mostly to gameplay, and are designed to address some of the main issues with the earlier versions (too much reliance on pistol in early stages, server room too dark / spectre usage, late chaingun placement in the progression, resources a little too tight, night vision secret likely to only be found after it would have been useful).

Details of updates (spoiler alert):

I think the map has benefited quite a bit from these changes, but I'll let the players be the judge of that :D please let me know what you think!

Here's a video of my playthrough with my commentary and summarizing thoughts at the end:

I gotta say, @PurityControl, it's a damn shame this hasn't gotten more attention already because this is a legitimate effort for a first timer or otherwise. You mark your debut here with a bold stamp and I'm already anticipating what's to come from you in the future.

Pros:

• Strong and appealing visual style that I would say is "texture agnostic" - meaning I think the use of OTEX only serves to enhance the style rather than define it. 
• Great variety in spaces that connect to each other logically, with especially great use of open/overlapping areas at the beginning, covered and uncovered interiors, dark/light areas, etc. Exploring is a strong suit here.
• Pulse-driven combat. Once you get the chaingun, the opening area is a blast (no pun intended) to run through laying waste to everything. Every other gun has a time to shine too. There's a good blend of run and gun/incidental type of combat with more arena-driven affairs and ambushes.
• Pacing is pretty solid. Nice mix of more intense action with some slower, exploration phases with moments to recuperate. You generally avoid making anything tedious - fights are over when they should be, exploration generally doesn't divert you for too long before it's back to the fighting.
• Not overly trap-heavy. Some new authors suffer from "everything's a trap"-itis and I don't see that here.

Possible Improvements:

• Progression is still probably a bit obtuse in areas. I can see your intent to mostly make backtracking coincide with looping areas, or new monsters that draw you back to where you started, but more than a couple times I would "progress" the map but not actually realize how or what I'd done specifically.
• Capstone fight is pretty tepid towards the end. Any time I can circle strafe to win, there's not enough going on. More forgiving for an early one, less so for the final battle. The actual concept of it was great though - I love the way the arena changed on a very telegraphed timer and the player immediately understands the consequences of taking too long or not being aggressive enough (all your cover goes away).
• (Nitpick) Still not a fan of how monster-dense the starter area is when you don't give out a weapon sooner. I think the severity of this problem is heavily a matter of opinion, but generally I'd imagine MOST people you poll would probably say "I shouldn't have to kill 30+ monsters before I find an upgrade for the pistol".
• (Nitpick - just food for thought for next time) Rooms are still very squareish overall. Even though hallways and connecting areas tended to be more round, actual arenas/open areas were mostly rectangles.

This was a treat. Job well done. Can't wait for what's next. 

6 hours ago, PurityControl said:

night vision secret likely to only be found after it would have been useful).

I feel personally called out by this ;)

14 hours ago, Silhou3tte said:

I feel personally called out by this ;)

You made me realise a very important fact I'd overlooked, that players (myself included) generally only look for secrets after clearing an area :) so thanks, it's all helpful stuff!

@LVENdead great video, thanks for uploading it! I've left some more detailed responses in a comment on the video, but suffice to say I very much enjoyed watching and was impressed by its quality and depth, especially when it comes to your commentary on the design - it really can't be overstated how good this is for me, both in terms of the extra exposure and the feedback itself. I'm going to have a think now about some more improvements to the map based on all this! :D I think it might be a good excuse to try an embedded dehacked patch to slightly buff the pistol, which seems to be the way to go in terms of improving its usefulness.

5 hours ago, PurityControl said:

I'm going to have a think now about some more improvements to the map based on all this! :D I think it might be a good excuse to try an embedded dehacked patch to slightly buff the pistol, which seems to be the way to go in terms of improving its usefulness.

That's a reasonable solution if that's what you want to do. I would just also recommend considering how you can elicit the experience you want for that section in alternative ways. I feel like what you're trying to do is create this uncomfortable and tense experience where the player is almost a bit desperate as they search these dark halls infested with monsters for SOMETHING to fight back with. Even if you gave us the shotgun prior to the blue key, we'd still be short on ammo for it if you chose not to just hand over shells, and that would create a very similar experience without also forcing the player to just use the pistol. I personally don't find the berserk as a viable replacement because I don't really like punching hitscanners. But that's just a completely unsolicited suggestion based on my opinion about the kind of Doom I like. I would ultimately encourage you to do what motivates you as an author to create.

This is a perfect 10/10 from me.

Nothing much to say, because a bunch of people who are WAY more talented at this than me have already said anything i may have had to say and more.

This map makes me wish I could make maps like this. Really looking forward to your next projects!

Hi guys,

I've been working on another round of improvements to the map based on the continuing feedback. This feels pretty close to a finished product now, but please still let me know if you think any more tweaks are required! I'm planning to release the final version in a few days if all goes well with testing of this iteration. The download link in the OP has been updated to version 1.3.

The changes are as follows:

The dehacked patch is embedded in the WAD so you shouldn't have to load it separately, but it's in there as a standalone file too just in case. 

@LVENdead - your feedback has been especially helpful for this round of updates, thanks again man!

@SP_FACE1 - I keep forgetting to say this, I'm from the UK so I very much appreciated the Mr Muscle reference :D They ruined the ads when they got rid of that skinny geeky guy and replaced him with a CGI mascot :(

Anyway I hope you all enjoy the updates. As always please let me know any thoughts you have on the map. I've included the names of everyone who has played so far in the readme under beta testers, hopefully this is ok but if not, just let me know.

Godspeed!

@PeceMan - Thanks, it's great to know people are enjoying my map so much. I guarantee you can make maps like this! You should have more confidence in your abilities and give it a try. I'm sure some people are naturally talented, but I don't feel like I'm one of them - all you really need is the absolute belligerent determination to keep trying and not give up until you succeed. If you're anything like me it will take many many attempts before you get anything even remotely playable. During the development of this map I'd estimate I've thrown away over 80% of the total effort and just kept the best stuff that came out of the process. My first couple of attempts ended up getting deleted entirely. This is living proof that if you just keep iterating for long enough and ruthlessly deleting stuff that isn't working, you can get there!

Okay, this is one of those ridiculous first maps where the author just decides to skip the beginner phase and become a great mapmaker immediately :) Hearing about your process makes sense - build a lot and keep the parts that work - and it really comes together to form something that works great. Making an entire free roaming mini-episode with this level of detail is something I've wanted to do for a while but didn't dare attempt it because I know that I'd get fed up halfway... but it's admirable that you stuck at the project that long and produced this out of it! I liked the detail of the music changing as you moved from one place to another.

The difficulty level rises nicely throughout - I think that the room with the barriers in the power plant section was a bit harder than the final one, but I'm not all that good at dealing with revenants in closed spaces. If I had one thing I'd point out to improve, it would be something that's already been mentioned - it was unclear when I'd completed objectives and could go back to previously locked doors to progress in the map, though I always coincidentally found my way back on track quickly. Maybe announcing the power being turned back on and so on with a message (like you do with the locked doors) would help!

What's the story behind the title? :) Here's a video, whenever Youtube decides to process it...

6 hours ago, PurityControl said:

Hi guys,

 

I've been working on another round of improvements to the map based on the continuing feedback. This feels pretty close to a finished product now, but please still let me know if you think any more tweaks are required! I'm planning to release the final version in a few days if all goes well with testing of this iteration. The download link in the OP has been updated to version 1.3.

 

The changes are as follows:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

• Added shotgun earlier in progression
• Swapped early secret shotgun in crates area for chaingun
• Tweaked teleporting pinkies secret in crates area
• Fixed co-op shotgun pickup appearing in single-player mode
• Swapped shotgun in ventilation room for chaingun
• Updated texture of door to BFG secret
• Improved signposting for switches which activate door leading to final arena
• Some minor tweaks to health and ammo placement
• Improved consistency of textures for usable and unusable doors
• Added "door opened elsewhere" message to all appropriate doors
• Replaced secret blur spheres for more appropriate pickups
• Added dehacked patch to buff firing rate of pistol
• Updated final boss encounter to make cyberdemon stage more challenging
• Tweaked volume of some ambient sounds

 

The dehacked patch is embedded in the WAD so you shouldn't have to load it separately, but it's in there as a standalone file too just in case. 

 

@LVENdead - your feedback has been especially helpful for this round of updates, thanks again man!

@SP_FACE1 - I keep forgetting to say this, I'm from the UK so I very much appreciated the Mr Muscle reference :D They ruined the ads when they got rid of that skinny geeky guy and replaced him with a CGI mascot :(

 

Anyway I hope you all enjoy the updates. As always please let me know any thoughts you have on the map. I've included the names of everyone who has played so far in the readme under beta testers, hopefully this is ok but if not, just let me know.

 

Godspeed!

I’ll have a look at the final version, If that’s fine with you. If you want to tag me, I’ll test it as soon as I can. Cheers!

Hi @DavidN, I really appreciate the playthrough video and the feedback, and I'm glad you had fun!

I'm still pretty new to making doom maps but I've spent a long time playing it with a critical eye, and have made maps and mods for other games in the past (mostly at university). I also have the massive head-start of an undergraduate degree in game design. I didn't want to point this out before because it feels a bit too much like tasteless bragging, and I feel grateful to have had the opportunities in life that enabled me to get this in the first place, which not everyone is lucky enough to have - but I definitely was not born with innate mapping ability! I feel I owe more to perseverance than my educational background, but for these reasons I do feel it's a bit unfair for this to be directly compared to maps that are legitimate first efforts by mappers without this design knowledge and experience to lean on.

One of the updates to this version was adding more signposting for the power plant and security access switches, but I agree it's still not as clear as I'd like - great suggestion about adding messages to the switches, I'll add these in the next version. I actually almost made the revenant fight in the barrier room harder this time, as @LVENdead dealt with it more easily than I expected - that fight is definitely easier if you get the plasma gun first, which he did, but of course it's by no means necessary.

I actually don't remember how I came up with the title (which seems appropriate in hindsight), but I've always liked the expression. There was also many a night spent on the sauce that went into the map's creation which probably won't surprise anyone...

@LVENdead - I noticed in your comment on @DavidN's video that you mentioned there's a way to remove unused textures using Slade - this was something I was trying to figure out, but I couldn't find a way besides individually removing each one from the texture1 lump / patch table / whatever it is! If you or anyone else could let me know how this can be done, that would be a big help! It would be nice to reduce the unnecessary size of the file as I'm only using a small percentage of the OTEX textures.

@Silhou3tte - of course, that would be great! I wouldn't expect people to play every new iteration, as the changes are fairly minor at this stage - although if anyone wants to I wouldn't stop them!

As a side note, has anyone seen Matthias Worch's GDC talk on meaningful choice in level design? This completely changed the way I look at Doom's design, I would strongly recommend it to anyone who is looking to understand more about what makes Doom fun at the most fundamental level. I also love his soothing German voice :D

Cheers!

7 minutes ago, PurityControl said:

I noticed in your comment on @DavidN's video that you mentioned there's a way to remove unused textures using Slade - this was something I was trying to figure out, but I couldn't find a way besides individually removing each one from the texture1 lump / patch table / whatever it is! If you or anyone else could let me know how this can be done, that would be a big help! It would be nice to reduce the unnecessary size of the file as I'm only using a small percentage of the OTEX textures.

So using SLADE3, what you'll do is make sure you incorporate OTEX by copying the entire contents of the WAD into your map WAD. 

The options you're looking for to complete this process are in the Archive menu. So you'll do Archive -> Maintenance, and then you're going to do the top 3 options but in reverse order (Remove Unused Flats, Remove Unused Textures, then Remove Unused Patches). Their purpose should be fairly self explanatory - SLADE will comb through the lumps in the WAD and remove anything from OTEX (or whatever other texture pack you might use) that isn't actually used in your map. The one thing to keep in mind is that it will remove anything that isn't EXPLICITLY used in your map - this includes any subsequent frames for animated textures, such as liquids or switches. That means that if you textured a wall with, say SWITCHTEX1A, you also need to deselect SWITCHTEX1B (or whatever the texture for the "on" frame is) from being removed or none of the switches that use the texture will actually animate when the player activates them. You also need to deselect the sky texture you use, or SLADE will remove that since it's really only specified in the MAPINFO.

The reason you do these in reverse order (really you just need to ensure that the Patches option is done last, probably doesn't matter outside that) is that it seems like SLADE executes Remove Unused Patches by looking at what textures still exist in the WAD file itself and then cleans up the PNAMES lump accordingly. If you do it first, every one of the OTEX textures is still in the WAD file so it won't delete anything from PNAMES. Even though SLADE clearly shows that the PNAMES lump is relatively small in terms of file size, completing this last step seems to have a big impact on the overall size of your WAD, so I don't recommend skipping it if you care about that.

Thanks for the guide @LVENdead that's a massive help! You should make a post in the editing tutorials forum, assuming there isn't one on this topic already (I couldn't find one, but I could probably have looked harder tbh).

Hi all,

After some more work on the map over the weekend I feel like it's now in good enough shape to be considered a release candidate. Provided no significant issues are found with this version I plan to submit to the idgames archive in a few days!

List of changes:

Thanks to @LVENdead's guide I was able to remove the vast majority of unused textures and flats, so the file is about half the previous size.

Enjoy!

So for my final test of the map, I decided I won't do a full review, simply because most, if not all of my previous points still stand. I thought I'd simply sum up what I think of the changes.

• The Dehacked pistol works wonders for the first part of the map, especially with the ammo constraints. Now the only thing you have to worry about is not expending too many bullets on weaker enemies. Good call
• You added a few more enemies( I'm fairly sure, but feel free to correct me) that add some more spice to the combat. The twin cybers are a very nice inclusion.
• You fixed all the bugs and visual errors I pointed out. Good work, man

All in all, this is a fantastic map and I'm really happy to be part of the testing process. You clearly know what you're doing and have a passion for mapping, as evident by the amount of detail and effort you put into your map. I can't wait to see what else you have in store for us. No rush, though. Put your mental and physical wellbeing first. Good stuff, man.

Hi again,

Apologies for the delay, I've been distracted working on my next project, but I finally submitted this to the archives. A full release of the map is now available on idgames! The download link has been updated in the original post, but why not put it here too - https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/m-o/notsauce

Ongoing bug reports or feedback (especially reviews!) are of course still welcome, and I'll do my best to support this by fixing any bugs that are major enough to warrant an updated release.

Cheers!