Sigil?

Since Sigil is considered episode 5 of Ultimate DOOM, does that mean you can’t say you finished Ultimate DOOM unless you finished Sigil?

Or do you think Sigil is its own separate thing all together?

Given it was released 23 years after Ultimate Doom, and has not been patched in in the current online releases; instead merely being offered as an add-on giving it the same level of canonicity as Double Impact or REKKR... It's its own separate thing altogether.

I couldn't say that.

For me there's the old classical Doom (is not that I call it that way, I just don't know how to say it; I guess you can just refer to it as the Doom version before Ultimate came up) with the 3 original episodes, there's Ultimate Doom with Thy Flesh Consumed, and then there's Sigil with Sigil (the episode name), unofficialy of course.

If you've finished Thy Flesh Consumed (and most likely the 3 episodes behind it), you've finished Ultimate Doom.

And it's different because it feels as if Ultimate Doom is almost a complete pack of Doom + Thy Flesh Consumed, while Sigil feels like it's just Sigil (the 5th chapter).

Like Gez, it feels just like an add-on.

Since Romero doesn't work for id anymore, it isn't any more canonical than add-ons like BTSX.

Romero says it's the fifth episode, good enough for me.  i really don't see why people would argue with that.  It's the same as him saying it's a megawad and then some 'community opinion-formers' arguing it isn't...  But, think what you like :D

I like Sigil. It really feels like the part of Ultimate Doom but that is an extra added episode to Ultimate Doom, which has 4 episodes. I see it as an extra and it is good to have an extra episode, which feels like the part of Ultimate Doom while playing. But it is not even an official one as ID Software has the rights of Doom.

I played Sigil and finished in 5 different difficulties from easier to harder (I used ''UV Fast'' as the 5th difficulty instead of Nightmare).

44 minutes ago, dei_eldren said:

Romero says it's the fifth episode, good enough for me.  i really don't see why people would argue with that.  It's the same as him saying it's a megawad and then some 'community opinion-formers' arguing it isn't...  But, think what you like :D

Well, it would be a rather wise choice to *not* take nearly everything Romero says at face value, but hey, its cool if you consider it as a canonical fifth episode. To me, I kinda feel Sigil is tryna do its own thing. It's a much more varied episode when compared to the OG Ultimate Doom ones. Canonical or not, Sigil is tons of fun regardless.

4 hours ago, Keyran-Solo said:

does that mean you can’t say you finished Ultimate DOOM unless you finished Sigil?

No. Officially, UD ends with TFC. It's like saying you haven't beat UD if you haven't beat Doom II, Doom 64, Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal.

4 hours ago, Keyran-Solo said:

 do you think Sigil is its own separate thing all together?

 

Yes, but I consider it to be the canonical sequel to Ultimate Doom and prequel to Doom II. Romero made Sigil. He probably had a huge part in writing the story for Doom and Doom II. That's good enough for me. It doesn't matter if Sigil doesn't have the official ID software stamp. Hell Revealed 2 and Plutonia 2 are considered to be canonical sequels by the community despite being made by different people. Why shouldn't Sigil be?

1 hour ago, dei_eldren said:

It's the same as him saying it's a megawad and then some 'community opinion-formers' arguing it isn't...

A megawad being 15 maps or more never sat right with me ever since I first heard it. That's "one and a half episodes" in length, doesn't make much sense really. Back in the day I always thought it should have been 10 maps.. but really, "8 or more" makes the most sense of all as it jives with Doom's prescribed episode length, and one episode could definitely be thought of as a complete campaign (many, many people viewed shareware Doom this way, after all).

I think the seemingly-random "15 maps in a megawad" measurement dates back to the early /idgames database, when the maintainers were deciding what should and should not qualify for the megawads subdirectory. I'm guessing someone said "well, that's almost half the length of Doom2, so that'll do" and no one questioned it much from that point forward despite it being such an arbitrary value. It still did it's job of helping people to classify wads I suppose, but it would be so nice if we could also somehow retroactively agree that a megawad is "an episode or more"..

My theory on how the 15 maps value came to be is mostly just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if the truth is somewhere along these lines.. Can't be bothered to go rummage through the wayback machine and usenet right now, but I'd put 5 dollarydoos on it.

EDIT: As far as the topic, imo Sigil is wholly unique in that it is neither an official episode nor a fan created episode. I think that unique status makes it cool in it's own right. This is just my own arbitrary dividing line, but the window to be part of the OG Doom lineup closed in the mid-late 90s. Even other badass stuff like NRFTL is "officially" part of the family, but clearly comes from a post-Doom-era school of thought, and I feel that same description could also apply to Sigil.

That it's intended as a semi-official fifth episode doesn't change the fact that it doesn't redefine a posteriori what "Ultimate Doom" has meant for the last three decades. Doom had three episodes, Ultimate Doom added a fourth but it's Ultimate Doom rather than Doom. Likewise Sigil adds a fifth but it's Sigil, not Ultimate Doom.

Episodes 1-3 : Doom

Episodes 1-3 + TFC : Ultimate Doom

Episodes 1-3 + TFC + Sigil : ???

Ultimater Doom?

Well, Sigil is the "unoficial fifth episode". So, nope, it's just a 10/10 addon for the first game, it's not necesary to finish the Ultimate Doom, IMHO. It's worth playing though.

10 minutes ago, paturn said:

Episodes 1-3 + TFC + Sigil : ???

 

Ultimater Doom?

 

Sigil Doom?

2 minutes ago, Lol 6 said:

Sigil Doom?

Ultimate Doom 2.0 update: Featuring a brand new episode: SIGIL!

Just now, BladeWolf said:

Ultimate Doom 2.0 update: Featuring a brand new episode: SIGIL!

Doom v.6.6.6 : Sigil of baphomet

does it reallly change things if sigil is cannon?

honestely it was a missed oportunity to tie doom 1 to doom 2 manual id he returned to mars after it ended

though i think its non cannon

The word megawad should go only to packs with >=32 maps really. 

27 minutes ago, Doomkid said:

wayback machine

https://web.archive.org/web/19970619053026/http://www.gamers.org:80/pub/games/idgames/levels/doom2/

https://web.archive.org/web/19970808183451/http://www.gamers.org:80/pub/games/idgames/levels/doom2/

https://web.archive.org/web/19990202050335/http://www.gamers.org:80/pub/games/idgames/levels/doom2/

I think of Sigil as DLC for Ultimate Doom. You can say you finished Ultimate Doom without playing it, and adding Sigil to your full run of the game is optional.

49 minutes ago, BladeWolf said:

Ultimate Doom 2.0 update: Featuring a brand new episode: SIGIL!

We already have an Ultimate Doom 2.0

https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/61562-ultimate-doom-v19-to-v20-unofficial-patch/?tab=comments#comment-1107461

24 minutes ago, northivanastan said:

I think of Sigil as DLC for Ultimate Doom. You can say you finished Ultimate Doom without playing it, and adding Sigil to your full run of the game is optional.

Yep, i would call it a Expansion Pack like in the old Days, but we mean the same.

It is an Expansion to the Ultimate Doom.

No more, no less.

So it is like beating Starcraft and later beating Starcraft Broodwar.

1 hour ago, Lol 6 said:

Well, Sigil is the "unoficial fifth episode". So, nope, it's just a 10/10 addon for the first game, it's not necesary to finish the Ultimate Doom, IMHO. It's worth playing though.

Sigil Doom?

Ultimate Doom: The Even Ancienter Gods

Just now, Pompeji said:

 

Ultimate Doom: The Even Ancienter Gods

 Doom: The last stand against satan's fury

Just now, Lol 6 said:

 Doom: The last stand against satan's fury

The Archaic Gods Pt. 666

Just now, Pompeji said:

 

The Archaic Gods Pt. 666

Ultimate Doom: Unto the Eviler

1 minute ago, Pompeji said:

 

The Archaic Gods Pt. 666

Doom: I have to shoot eyes to proceed

Ultimate Doom: John Romero it's about to make you play this Hellish maps.

Just now, jamondemarnatural said:

Ultimate Doom: John Romero it's about to make you play this Hellish maps.

Is that like the pre-alpha version of the Daikatana ad?

9 minutes ago, jamondemarnatural said:

Ultimate Doom: John Romero it's about to make you play this Hellish maps.

Doom: Jimmy Romero is about to make you play this Hellish maps. Burn it down

I'd say SIGIL is as separate as any other WAD. The thing that gives it its "Is it Canon or not?" stigma is that it was made by one of Doom's original founders. 

7 hours ago, SirJuicyLemon said:

I couldn't say that.

For me there's the old classical Doom (is not that I call it that way, I just don't know how to say it; I guess you can just refer to it as the Doom version before Ultimate came up) with the 3 original episodes, there's Ultimate Doom with Thy Flesh Consumed, and then there's Sigil with Sigil (the episode name), unofficialy of course.

 

 

I think if we're going to add on to Doom 1993, there's no one more qualified to do it than Romero. I'm not saying he's the best mapper in the world, but if anyone just slapped "official addon to og Doom" as a tagline to their project, it better be one of the original members of ID. That being said, I consider Doom 1993 to be the first 3 episodes only. Sorry Thy flesh consumed! Once you kill the Spider Mastermind, IMHO, that's the end.