[Now on /idgames!!!] TWANGO1 - Vanilla DM for the Modern Age

https://www.mediafire.com/file/lflmqbwk2ovi0yx/lama0.zip/file

Updated all but one of my maps, I think:

01 Interdimansia = more areas and rearranged teleports

02 Quad Goal DM / You're the Ball! = maybe unchanged

04 THAT ****ing map = more enemies and adjusted/aligned recesses that troughs flow into.

12 Silenced Lamasery = Aligned more stone brick seams to the ceiling texture ones

32 Quad Doomball = thing placement more like Quad Goal DM if it happens to make it in

EDIT: Quick reupload.   Found a case of tutti fruiti in Lamasery on third step in long northern hallway due to sidedef vertical offset of 16, and flickering on edges of steps in central room.   In the wad I previously had it in, I had step3 (using patch step05) increased to 32 tall to fix it.   Had my increased graphic already in but entry in texture1 wasn't made taller.   Went ahead made a new repeating graphic and fixed it to a single patch 128 tall to ensure there's not even a flicker of tutti fruiti at the top or bottom edge of step.   Also there was pname of twangoM still defined but no graphic and you can't just delete pnames so for the time being I renamed it to twangor and put Redead's texture back in.   Also Cwilv10 for Romero's Void is added as a pname and texture but not currently used in Map 11 Romero's Void in twangob1.wad.   I just increased its width setting from 148 to 192.   I do have two needed textures in mind for another map so I could rename unused pnames to them to remove twangor and cwilv10 from the pnames&texture1.

7 hours ago, OpenRift said:

Wait, what? I was talking about Arrowhead's map, not yours. Yours is fine. 

Oh sorry haha!

Ok, Interdimansia is totally going to break your gyroscopes now!   But it still won't break doom2.exe.   Some areas need detail and more thing placement and maybe more hidden passages, but the main layout is done, unless I decide to chop and swap and maybe rotate a couple parts.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/lflmqbwk2ovi0yx/lama0.zip/file

Currently replaced the texture1 and pnames entries of Cwilv10 and TwangoR with added textures BigDrSnL and BigDrSnR.

19 minutes ago, Gokuma said:

Ok, Interdimansia is totally going to break your gyroscopes now!   But it still won't break doom2.exe.   Some areas need detail and more thing placement and maybe more hidden passages, but the main layout is done, unless I decide to chop and swap and maybe rotate a couple parts.

 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/lflmqbwk2ovi0yx/lama0.zip/file

 

Currently replaced the texture1 and pnames entries of Cwilv10 and TwangoR with added textures BigDrSnL and BigDrSnR.

Cool. Just FYI, I'm getting close to RC1 after I do some testing. I wanna be able to get some demos to put on the title screen loop to add that extra level of polish you see in WADs like TNT Bloodlands. 

Any of the versions of maps in the current twangok.wad are ready for that except for Interdimansia still needs work.

Just now, Gokuma said:

Any of the versions of maps in the current twangok.wad are ready for that except for Interdimansia still needs work.

Sounds good.

Some suggestions for Romero's Void.

Maybe change the outer lava to a nondamaging liquid and delete any radsuits, so you have more freedom to run around.

Currently if you happen to fall in the center death pit with a radsuit, you have to wait for it to wear off.

Maybe change megasphere to soulsphere for better DM balancing?

Also, the texture Twango2 is 214x214.   I've never tried using a texture taller than 128 in vanilla so should that texture entry be deleted and the pname for it changed to some other addition?

Just now, Gokuma said:

Some suggestions for Romero's Void.

 Maybe change the outer lava to a nondamaging liquid and delete any radsuits, so you have more freedom to run around.

 And currently if you happen to fall in the center death pit with a radsuit, you have to wait for it to wear off.

 Maybe change megasphere to soulsphere for better DM balancing?

I was gonna keep the outer lava damaging as a means to maintain a sense of hazard and minimize people's time on the lava.. You do make a good point about falling into the middle with the radsuit though. Maybe I'll just be extra evil and just remove the radsuits :). After all, it is only -5% damaging lava anyway. 

I keep getting this error when I try to test the WAD with ZDaemon. I don't get any errors like this in any other port. Any suggestions? 

If there's any problem with my maps, redownload in case you downloaded while I was uploading a new edit.

Looking at twangob1.wad in its pnames, TwangoM was still listed with no graphic entry by that name in the wad.   Unless you've added more textures since, try the texture1 and pnames from my wad, but make sure you copy the resources RWSLN11L and RWSLN11R and my updated step05 used by the modiified step3 so that it's 128 tall and Lamasery doesn't get tutti fruiti on that one step.

54 minutes ago, Gokuma said:

Also, the texture Twango2 is 214x214.   I've never tried using a texture taller than 128 in vanilla so should that texture entry be deleted and the pname for it changed to some other addition?

I keep that just in case I wanna use it for a future TWANGO WAD. Twango1 is the 128x128 version, and Twango is the 64x64 version, in case you needed to know.

Whatever the purpose of the 214 tall graphic, it probably shouldn't be in texture1 and pnames for a vanilla wad.

2 minutes ago, Gokuma said:

Whatever the purpose of the 214 tall graphic, it probably shouldn't be in texture1 and pnames for a vanilla wad.

Well still doesn't seem to fix the ZDaemon issue regardless.

The TwangoM graphic resource missing while being listed in pnames may be that problem.

1 minute ago, Gokuma said:

The TwangoM graphic resource missing while being listed in pnames may be that problem.

I thought I removed that from the WAD a while back, I don't see it in texture1, pnames or on the main WAD directory either.

Well it was in twangob1.wad you released so when I took that updated texture1 and pnames from your wad and put them into twangok.wad I changed that pname to something I added (list above) since you can't just delete  a pname or it will shift all pnames uses in textures1 effectively scrambling it.

Also vanilla doom.exe only displays the top 128 of that 214 tall texture.

If I have the wad you're trying to test I can look for errors in it.

Here's my current version of the WAD. Feel free to take a look and see if you can find the source of the issue.

EDIT: Well NEVER MIND, I somehow fixed it.

Ok, right off the bat looking in pnames and texture1.

A load of new flats are all added as pnames which you just can't do and basically means you have to remake the pnames entry.

Flats and wall textures as graphic entries are actually formatted differently and are not interchangeable like that.

(The engine draws one by columns and other by rows).

The taller step05 graphic is missing.

I have no idea what these images are but BigDrSnL and BigDrSnR are supposed to use the pnames & graphic entries RWSLN11L and RWSLN11R.

I suggest making a new texture wad from twangok.wad and recopy the textures from Doomkid's wad -- By opening texture1 of both wads and copy&pasting the additional textures from one to the other.   It will automatically copy the needed graphic entries and add them as pnames.   I really gotta get some sleep now.  If that's all that needs to be done, I can do it tomorrow afternoon probably reasonably quick.

2 minutes ago, Gokuma said:

Ok, right off the bat looking in pnames and texture1.

 A load of new flats are all added as pnames which you just can't do and basically means you have to remake the pnames entry.

 Flats and wall textures as graphic entries are actually formatted differently and are not interchangeable like that.

(The engine draws one by columns and other by rows).

The taller step05 graphic is missing.

I have no idea what these images are but BigDrSnL and BigDrSnR are supposed to use the pnames & graphic entries RWSLN11L and RWSLN11R.

 

I suggest making a new texture wad from twangok.wad and recopy the textures from Doomkid's wad -- By opening texture1 of both wads and copy&pasting the additional textures from one to the other.   It will automatically copy the needed graphic entries and add them as pnames.

I think this may be above my current level of knowledge. Do you think you could give it a try? Here's a new link to the WAD with the ZDaemon fix btw.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kc-b74OBnGicZDSYH1YqW1dK1G2HHw7j/view?usp=sharing

Took a quick look.   Better so far, except step05 used by step3 is still short and needs the taller graphic from my wad.   I'm really out of time tonight and have to get back to this tomorrow afternoon.   The texture and pnames resources really need to be in good order for an RC.

I hope this doesn't get lost in all the technical info, but I have some feedback about various maps:

• Firstly, if this truly wants to join the DWANGO family, Map08 and Map01 really should swap spots. DWANGO traditionally starts with an Entryway remake, and the current map01 is acceptable, but nothing special - just a standard DM map which does it's job fine - but Map08 evokes the true spirit of DWANGO's classic openers.

• Map06 really has no business being in the main campaign - it's a lulzy joke map which will get a laugh out of people once, and then will be skipped every single time from then on out unless map voting is disabled (which it usually is). In which case, all it will do is be a bona fide server killer in it's current slot - in other words, a map that ruins the pacing of a DM session and causes all 6-8 clients to disconnect, or at least most of them. Trust me on this. I've done the research. Meanwhile we have a perfectly passable DM map - by one of the greatest DM mappers of all time, no less (Hellbent) - shoved into the 32 slot!

• Map02 has the makings of a good DM map, but it isn't a good DM map unfortunately. About 6 months ago, I highlighted that having one lone, slow lift as the only means of getting from A to B is crappy, as are the numerous dead-end spots. Here's the original detailed feedback most of which seems to have not been taken on board. I'll happily implement all those suggestions so that no one else has to do the work - otherwise people are going to think this wad is mediocre/amateurish before even finishing their round on Map02, and I absolutely do not want that. It's so close to actually being good..

• Maps 09 and 11 seem oddly early in the campaign for hell maps.. I know consistency isn't the hallmark of Dwango, and map11 is clearly a homage to the original - but 09, especially being right near yet another "square arena" map (07), it really should be moved a bit further back.

• 12 seems like a decent map, but good god is it ever cramped.. I'd do some serious enlarging if you want this to retain the interest of the average player. Otherwise seems pretty good. 13 is similarly tiny, but I get the feeling more of a classic era duel map from it, so I'd say it's fine as-is, despite being even smaller than 12.

• 14 is a single-player map, isn't it? Actually looks alright for DM, but those inescapable nukage pits have GOT to go. That's ragequit fuel just for the sake of it - no need to have stuff like that to draw people away from the wad/server. It should be made shallow enough to just walk right out of, for the sake of fun and player engagement. Hell, inescapable pits are bad enough in SP - DMers genuinely have 0 time for such shenanigans.

• 21 has a severe case of bumpy floor syndrome going on. At least 4 of the pillars in the southeastern corner of the map really should be scrapped, they do nothing but impede movement and make the area feel cramped. Taking out the 4 in the middle would be sufficient, but all 8 could go with nothing of value lost.

• 22 is just an experimental old map that was thrown in last-minute.. It has no place here. Meanwhile a couple of actually cool maps were moved aside to make room for it, despite it sucking - why? RebelVodka would be heartbroken if his actually-creative map was scrapped in favor of a pooey, unremarkable map like this - I guarantee it, lol.

• 26 is such a traditionally Dwango-ish map in every way - feels odd for it to be this late in the campaign. This wad almost has it's hell episode and it's techbase episode back to front. The TWANGO signs were never put up in place of the WOLF textures, but that's an easy enough fix.

If you guys can agree to just stop working on this wad for the next 2-3 days, I will happily do my whole "Gordon Ramsay going to a subpar hotel with potential on Hotel Hell and converting into a place people actually want to stay" shtick. In other words, rearranging the map selections, fixing some boo-boos and mapping oddities to bring these maps to their highest potential, adding some polish and much needed finalizing touches to make the wad feel like a "complete experience", and above all else doing some thorough playtesting to see if there's any other "crowd displeasers" that I've missed (I'm certain there are).

I've been in the deathmatching game and mapping community for 20 years now. I don't need any more popular DM wads under my belt, so I'm not offering this for my own benefit or self-aggrandizement, but for the success of the project as a whole and to guarantee it's longevity as a DM wad people want to come back to - rather than as a flash in the pan that gets played once in a blue moon, but otherwise ignored.

If there's any doubt about my DM mapping resume or about my knowledge of what keeps a server alive VS what empties them out - let me know and I can bring out the documentation. This isn't me blowing smoke up my own ass, this is me wanting to salvage a DM project with so much underutilized potential. In other words: ignore this feedback at your own peril!

If you guys give me the go-ahead that you'll drop working on it for a few days for me to do what needs to be done to bring out the fun DM megawad that I just know wants to bust out of this shell, let me know and I'll do so.

Since you guys are trying to re-evaluate which maps might go where, I was sort of thinking that my map might be better off close to the beginning, around map02 or 03 since it's a somewhat small and likely fast paced level. But you know, what ever you guys decide. ;)

10 hours ago, Doomkid said:

I hope this doesn't get lost in all the technical info, but I have some feedback about various maps:

 

• Firstly, if this truly wants to join the DWANGO family, Map08 and Map01 really should swap spots. DWANGO traditionally starts with an Entryway remake, and the current map01 is acceptable, but nothing special - just a standard DM map which does it's job fine - but Map08 evokes the true spirit of DWANGO's classic openers.

  

• Map06 really has no business being in the main campaign - it's a lulzy joke map which will get a laugh out of people once, and then will be skipped every single time from then on out unless map voting is disabled (which it usually is). In which case, all it will do is be a bona fide server killer in it's current slot - in other words, a map that ruins the pacing of a DM session and causes all 6-8 clients to disconnect, or at least most of them. Trust me on this. I've done the research. Meanwhile we have a perfectly passable DM map - by one of the greatest DM mappers of all time, no less (Hellbent) - shoved into the 32 slot!

  

• Map02 has the makings of a good DM map, but it isn't a good DM map unfortunately. About 6 months ago, I highlighted that having one lone, slow lift as the only means of getting from A to B is crappy, as are the numerous dead-end spots. Here's the original detailed feedback most of which seems to have not been taken on board. I'll happily implement all those suggestions so that no one else has to do the work - otherwise people are going to think this wad is mediocre/amateurish before even finishing their round on Map02, and I absolutely do not want that. It's so close to actually being good..

  

• Maps 09 and 11 seem oddly early in the campaign for hell maps.. I know consistency isn't the hallmark of Dwango, and map11 is clearly a homage to the original - but 09, especially being right near yet another "square arena" map (07), it really should be moved a bit further back.

  

• 12 seems like a decent map, but good god is it ever cramped.. I'd do some serious enlarging if you want this to retain the interest of the average player. Otherwise seems pretty good. 13 is similarly tiny, but I get the feeling more of a classic era duel map from it, so I'd say it's fine as-is, despite being even smaller than 12.

 

• 14 is a single-player map, isn't it? Actually looks alright for DM, but those inescapable nukage pits have GOT to go. That's ragequit fuel just for the sake of it - no need to have stuff like that to draw people away from the wad/server. It should be made shallow enough to just walk right out of, for the sake of fun and player engagement. Hell, inescapable pits are bad enough in SP - DMers genuinely have 0 time for such shenanigans.

 

• 21 has a severe case of bumpy floor syndrome going on. At least 4 of the pillars in the southeastern corner of the map really should be scrapped, they do nothing but impede movement and make the area feel cramped. Taking out the 4 in the middle would be sufficient, but all 8 could go with nothing of value lost.

 

• 22 is just an experimental old map that was thrown in last-minute.. It has no place here. Meanwhile a couple of actually cool maps were moved aside to make room for it, despite it sucking - why? RebelVodka would be heartbroken if his actually-creative map was scrapped in favor of a pooey, unremarkable map like this - I guarantee it, lol.

 

• 26 is such a traditionally Dwango-ish map in every way - feels odd for it to be this late in the campaign. This wad almost has it's hell episode and it's techbase episode back to front. The TWANGO signs were never put up in place of the WOLF textures, but that's an easy enough fix.

 

If you guys can agree to just stop working on this wad for the next 2-3 days, I will happily do my whole "Gordon Ramsay going to a subpar hotel with potential on Hotel Hell and converting into a place people actually want to stay" shtick. In other words, rearranging the map selections, fixing some boo-boos and mapping oddities to bring these maps to their highest potential, adding some polish and much needed finalizing touches to make the wad feel like a "complete experience", and above all else doing some thorough playtesting to see if there's any other "crowd displeasers" that I've missed (I'm certain there are).

 

I've been in the deathmatching game and mapping community for 20 years now. I don't need any more popular DM wads under my belt, so I'm not offering this for my own benefit or self-aggrandizement, but for the success of the project as a whole and to guarantee it's longevity as a DM wad people want to come back to - rather than as a flash in the pan that gets played once in a blue moon, but otherwise ignored.

 

If there's any doubt about my DM mapping resume or about my knowledge of what keeps a server alive VS what empties them out - let me know and I can bring out the documentation. This isn't me blowing smoke up my own ass, this is me wanting to salvage a DM project with so much underutilized potential. In other words: ignore this feedback at your own peril!

 

If you guys give me the go-ahead that you'll drop working on it for a few days for me to do what needs to be done to bring out the fun DM megawad that I just know wants to bust out of this shell, let me know and I'll do so.

The main purpose of TWANGO WADs to me isn't that it's another DWANGO sequel, but more the DWANGO of a new generation. That being said, I have thought about swapping Map01 and 08. I think the main thing that's stopped me from doing it is a need to subvert expectations a bit. Like, I feel like it would be too uncreative to put another map01 clone in the first slot, I sort of wanted it to stand out kind of like how DWANGO20 does it. I'm not entirely opposed to swapping them I guess.

As for Map02, I have been meaning to do another pass on it, smooth everything out a bit and probably change the routes a bit.

I do agree a bit on Map06, I'll probably swap that with Map32. I only put Hellbent's map in 32 because it felt like kind of a meme-ish map that gave off that ugly greenwar vibe. Don't get me wrong, it's a good layout, but it's definitely an ugly map that doesn't really fit with any other the other maps. 

In terms of "episode" consistency, I wanted to take an approach that focuses more on variety per episode rather than adhering to a single theme, hence my reasons for placing Maps 09, 11, and 26 where they are. I want to keep the experience as fresh as I can so people aren't getting bored by the time they reach map 15 because every map looks the damn same. 

Map22, yeah, I could probably do a bit better, but to be honest, Rebelvodka's map that you suggested just didn't seem very appealing. It looks cool, but the layout just doesn't feel that good for deathmatch to me. It feels like like a lot of the stop-go sort of nonsense that map02 also suffers from, not to mention cramped as fuck. 

I will admit, there are some things that I just know are gonna piss people off when playing, and personally I find some of them to be hilarious. Like, the chainsaw or berzerk spawns on map02, which are meant more as a means to troll the player, like "fuck you, you get a chainsaw, have fun!!" Or imagine a 16-player Zdaemon server loading onto map13 or map06, that's deathmatch comedy gold if you ask me. 

But to conclude, you're free to make changes as you see fit if you'd like. Do keep in mind @Gokuma is still finishing Interdimansia, so you may have to update map04 while you work on it.

I love the midi selection and skybox you applied to my map10! Can't wait to play it with bigger amount of players!

Dude, if you troll the players on every other map and waste a map that could potentially be funner, it's not hilarious.

If it goes spawn-kill, spawn-kill, spawn-kill, spawn-kill, nukage-death, spawn-kill, can't get a decent weapon, spawn-kill, no room to manuever, spawn-kill, nukage-death, spawn-kill, it won't be a Dwango of any generation, because you won't have players.   If you want do that so much, maybe have an additional Twango #1 B-sides Wad for Masochists, of the original sadistic versions of your maps and my Quad Goal.

Dwango5-map04 is a very rare and classic accepted case, where it's actually fun and funny enough that I don't mind the high amount of spawn kills.   But it's actually more reasonable and playable than my Quad Goal (or the intended Doomball).   I don't mind if quad goal gets cut entirely in favor of a real map.   I sure don't want the blame for killing servers.  It's a concept map for players who know what they're getting into.   My Quad Goal or Doomball would only be excusable as map 30, 31, or 32, and not in the regular rotation, or even a map33 you can only warp to or various mapinfos can set up moreso.

I thought you would have made some recommended fixes to Refinery and Shipment, but in the RC you're trying to push out too quick they seem exactly the same.   I'm glad you've given Doomkid permission.  It's really great to have him work on it and he knows what he's talking about.  I already private messaged him my full permission to do what he sees fit early this morning (well I think it was evening for him).

Silenced Lamasery was made for Strife Deathmatch back in 2003 and I tried to tailor it well for Doom SP as well as DM when I made the new version.   I don't mind if Doomkid deletes every single monster in this instance and I had already thought of removing the death pit.   People can play the SP version in D1EntHng.wad.

Okay, so I just took a look at my submission in DoomBuilder X's VPO mode. There doesn't seem to be anyway to fix them, (there's far too many VPOs) - without SUBSTANTIALLY altering the map. I don't really feel its fair to have OpenRift / Doomkid work so hard on trying to make the map viable. It was a single-player conversion anyways. If you do feel so inclined to keep a portion of the map, and frankenmap it with something else, then feel free.

Being a relatively new WAD author, I was not aware to test in choco - and that probably caused this issue. I do feel that it works quite well as a DM map, it seems to have an okay flow to it, but yeah - if its that chockful of VPOs, I would feel bad making someone slave away at it.

If you can do something w/ it, then great, but if not, I fully understand! :)

Edit: I'll be sure to include the original in my upcoming deathmatch 12-pack - but that's a while off still!

Thanks guys!

9 minutes ago, Arrowhead12 said:

Okay, so I just took a look at my submission in DoomBuilder X's VPO mode. There doesn't seem to be anyway to fix them, (there's far too many VPOs) - without SUBSTANTIALLY altering the map. I don't really feel its fair to have OpenRift / Doomkid work so hard on trying to make the map viable. It was a single-player conversion anyways. If you do feel so inclined to keep a portion of the map, and frankenmap it with something else, then feel free.

 

Being a relatively new WAD author, I was not aware to test in choco - and that probably caused this issue. I do feel that it works quite well as a DM map, it seems to have an okay flow to it, but yeah - if its that chockful of VPOs, I would feel bad making someone slave away at it.

 

If you can do something w/ it, then great, but if not, I fully understand! :)

 

Edit: I'll be sure to include the original in my upcoming deathmatch 12-pack - but that's a while off still!

 

Thanks guys!

I already fixed your map, though I had to cut down significantly on details.

2 minutes ago, OpenRift said:

I already fixed your map, though I had to cut down significantly on details.

Oh, that's awesome! Thanks so much for doing that! That must have taken a while.

I'm very much looking forward to this release. I need some new maps to DM my brother in lol

55 minutes ago, Gokuma said:

Dude, if you troll the players on every other map and waste a map that could potentially be funner, it's not hilarious.

 If it goes spawn-kill, spawn-kill, spawn-kill, spawn-kill, nukage-death, spawn-kill, can't get a decent weapon, spawn-kill, no room to manuever, spawn-kill, nukage-death, spawn-kill, it won't be a Dwango of any generation, because you won't have players.   If you want do that so much, maybe have an additional Twango #1 B-sides Wad for Masochists, of the original sadistic versions of your maps and my Quad Goal.

 

I thought you would have made some recommended fixes to Refinery and Shipment, but in the RC you're trying to push out too quick they seem exactly the same.   I'm glad you've given Doomkid permission.  It's really great to have him work on it and he knows what he's talking about.  I already private messaged him my full permission to do what he sees fit early this morning (well I think it was evening for him).

  

Silenced Lamasery was made for Strife Deathmatch back in 2003 and I tried to tailor it well for Doom SP as well as DM when I made the new version.   I don't mind if Doomkid deletes every single monster in this instance and I had already thought of removing the death pit.   People can play the SP version in D1EntHng.wad.

For context, Refinery's chainsaw and berzerk spawns are 2 out of 16 spawns, so it's unlikely to spawn there to begin with. As for the case of high-density player counts on small maps, I remember playing on stuff like that all the time when I was still a part of USDQC and it was just pure, uninterrupted chaos. In retrospect I found it kind of funny, but I guess not. 

I still wanted to make some fixes to Refinery, but I felt pretty happy with Shipment for the most part. As for an RC, what I linked above wasn't a full release candidate. If you look at the file name, it was 0.98 RC, so it wasn't a full RC1 anyway. I probably should've called it a Beta instead of an RC, but I guess I was just a bit excited at having compiled and cleaned up 32 levels, which is like a first for me so yeah.

Thanks for giving me permission to do some cleanup here. Should only be a few days tops til I have a refined and rearranged version posted up!