Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
xvertigox

WAD Progression for Skill Improvement

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, GarrettChan said:

Ancient Aliens (2.0), Eviternity (2.1) and Valiant (2.5*

 

Eviternity is faaaaaaar below AA in terms of difficulty.

 

If AA is 2.0, then Eviternity should be no higher than 1.5 and Valiant would be around 1.8 I feel. I swear most people are underestimating AA's difficulty.

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks to the Cyberdemon BFG two-shot training from Epic 2, I went back and finished Scythe map 23. Still died a lot because while I've learned the technique I'm not actually very good at it yet. I had previously made it to Scythe 24 and quit out at the big Revenant-filled corridor in Scythe 24. Thanks to all the practice I got with the Revenant dance when play-testing my WIP "Nukage Treatment Pools" map, I was able to handle that one this time as well. Strangely enough, Scythe 25 looks to be a little breather in comparison.

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

If AA is 2.0, then Eviternity should be no higher than 1.5 and Valiant would be around 1.8 I feel. I swear most people are underestimating AA's difficulty.

Your rating standard is probably different from mine, so it doesn't really matter. I rated everything based on the hardest level to make a saveless UV Max, which means length is also a factor.

 

6 hours ago, a.a.i. said:

Sure, how did you do it?

 

I do plan to check out these, in addition to Revilution, BTSX and Rush. I haven't decided on a playing order yet. And how do the hardest maps of tougher wads like Alien Vendetta, Hell Revealed, Scythe 2, Speed of Doom compare to something like Fire and Ice?

Huh, interesting. I still think that fight is the hardest heh, but if you thought that's easy, the more power to you. Usually when I'm doing these maps, I don't waste my Invul to deal with something I can do without and save it for the most annoying part. I found that one I was talking about posted a problem to me, so I saved the Invul and charge in and kill everything after triggering the trap.

 

AV could be a fun one to see something not very vanilla from a "texture" standpoint. Scythe is the "standard texture" type of feeling, but AV has different texture and stuff. It's sort of weird that some of the AV maps have stock texture feeling to it, which makes it not very consistent, so this depends on what you think. Both AV and Scythe are from the era of 200X.

 

HR is the extreme difficulty of 90s WAD, and there are certainly a lot of annoying design to the maps which may not be enjoyable. 90s WAD either clicks with you or fail miserably depending on your taste. I rated it 2.9.

 

In Scythe 2, Erik retained his very good mapping skill for sure. Early levels are pretty good, but later levels have 2 custom monsters that are... a thing to make the blind experience very bad. I would say people don't (or rarely just be at the safe side) use custom monsters at this level anymore after this, so I would say it seems unconsciously mappers thought that's a bad idea, but we have to respect somebody actually trying it out to see. I rated it 3.2. In case you wonder what are one of them:

Spoiler

 

 

Speed of Doom has a bit of slaughter map inside, so that's a different category I would say. Despite always having an eternal debates about what's a slaughter map, it does play differently from regular maps. There are a few here and there in other WADs mentioned above, so those could be used as an entry point for slaughter maps. SoD focuses more on slaughter IMO, so if you're not into this, probably that's not your thing. I haven't finished SoD, but I would feel it's somewhere around 3.0.

Share this post


Link to post
21 hours ago, Outrageous Videos said:

In what world is sunlust harder than sunder?

And why is italo doom so high? Those maps are very short.


On a fight by fight basis, old sunder is easier than sunlust. That’s maps 1-14. If you are doing saveless runs then it’s a different story in many cases. I believe that these placements are most likely including saves between fights as Italo doom once again on a fight by fight basis is more difficult than most other wads.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Jacek Bourne said:


On a fight by fight basis, old sunder is easier than sunlust. That’s maps 1-14. If you are doing saveless runs then it’s a different story in many cases. I believe that these placements are most likely including saves between fights as Italo doom once again on a fight by fight basis is more difficult than most other wads.

The rules for the runs in this is saveless pistol starts no?

And I still disagree the fights in old sunder are easier than sunlust especially some of the fights later in old sunder

Share this post


Link to post
49 minutes ago, Outrageous Videos said:

The rules for the runs in this is saveless pistol starts no?

And I still disagree the fights in old sunder are easier than sunlust especially some of the fights later in old sunder


The only rules they stated are to not save scum if you want to improve. Personally I find the fights in later old sunder maps much easier than the hard fights in the last 6 levels of sunlust however you may think differently and that’s your opinion. If you don’t like the way the list is arranged then do things out of order. It’s not the law to follow this so do what you want to improve yourself at doom the most efficient way for you.

Share this post


Link to post

Wow this looks great. Ill have to give this a go when I get chance.

 

Sunlust being only like 80% of the way through and no chance not at the top! OMG :O

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, Zulk RS said:

 

If you are looking for a list of "Hard Wads" then perhaps this topic will interest you: https://www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/91871-doom-ii-list-of-all-hard-wads/

 

 

 

Well these would be after I "git gud" (so probably 27 more years of doom :D

 

Thanks for the share zulk RS. Mebe by the time I get to them the list would probably be obsolete... Because I'm terrible at doom.:D

Share this post


Link to post

What exactly counts as save scum? Is it only saving mid fights? Or is saving after each fight also considered save scum?

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Bolaum said:

What exactly counts as save scum? Is it only saving mid fights? Or is saving after each fight also considered save scum?

mid-fight save = scumming

pre-fight/post-fight save = good

 

not having to save at all to beat a map eventually = ideal

Edited by Nine Inch Heels

Share this post


Link to post

Urgh, when I've read the name of the thread, I thought it's a mega wad with progression of difficulty to train doom players.

 

Like, map01 is easy enough, but every next map is harder than previous.

 

Still, this list is pretty good. I never was a fan of slaughter maps in level design/playthrough style meaning, but it really can be considered as proof test that you're "pro" at playing this.

 

P.S.: What's about WADs like I've suggested? I mean, I've never heard of such WADs, which specially aimed to be "training difficulties while beating new maps", but I could be just not aware.

Share this post


Link to post

Love this thread.

I have messed about with Doom over the past 20 odd years but never dwelt for too long. I have been amazed to find myself continually drawn back to it and by work of the community to build on the originals with all of the amazing ports, WADs, mods, and even the forums, Wikis and videos, etc.

 

Having watched gamers (like Decino and Zero-Master, in particular) take on some really beautiful and challenging levels (like Insane_Gazebo’s Sunder and Ribbiks & Dannebubinga’s Sunlust), I am really driven to do the same. With the aid of this thread I have started working through all of the WADs listed in order to have some fun and improve my skills. I am really, really enjoying it so far. I have completed Fava Beans, Base Ganymede and Sigil so far and am working my way through Episode 2 of Moonblood! I have skipped Doom I, Doom II and Final Doom, for now, as I have played these in the past and wanted new content to chew through as well.

 

Making such a list will always be contentious as different things are difficult/beautiful/engaging for different people and some of the immense appeal of Doom is the ability for Doomers to select from a wide variety of amazing WADs and play them the way you like – but I love that you have pulled the list together. I prefer UV, all kills and secrets, pistol start and no saves. It can be brutal but I find myself really enjoying this for now, but I am flexible to change. Main thing for me is to play it the way I enjoy it.

 

I am making progress and enjoying it as I go and hope that one day, I can take on Sunlust/Sunder in a similar fashion. Who knows if I will make it, I have a lot of improving to do…and a lot of maps to enjoy on the journey!

Thanks all for pulling the list together!

 

Share this post


Link to post

Awesome post!  Just downloaded the list.  I'm more or less at a "Hell Revealed is hard but I can grind it out" level of skill, and I've been playing since the shareware version came out... Time to step up my game!  Thanks for the rankings!

Share this post


Link to post
On 1/20/2022 at 1:40 PM, Dexiaz said:

Urgh, when I've read the name of the thread, I thought it's a mega wad with progression of difficulty to train doom players.

 

Like, map01 is easy enough, but every next map is harder than previous.

 

Still, this list is pretty good. I never was a fan of slaughter maps in level design/playthrough style meaning, but it really can be considered as proof test that you're "pro" at playing this.

 

P.S.: What's about WADs like I've suggested? I mean, I've never heard of such WADs, which specially aimed to be "training difficulties while beating new maps", but I could be just not aware.

 

Would love something like this, but Eviternity was a pretty good teacher as a first megawad personally, maybe not the best but it trains you on how to handle some bigger fights while progressively ramping (outside of map 19 and 32), and map 26 really forces you to learn the BFG and practice your cyberdemon two shots.

Share this post


Link to post
On 4/7/2021 at 11:08 PM, GarrettChan said:

 

Guess you'll like this:

 

Yeah, I really like it, helped me greatly get my timing right.

Are there any other maps with similar concepts or variations on this map?

Like an Archvile jump training map, or a SR50 training map.

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, rzh said:

Are there any other maps with similar concepts or variations on this map?

Like an Archvile jump training map, or a SR50 training map.

Practice Hub has courses for AVJs and SR50, along with other stuff like glides, zero pressing, BFG two-shotting, rocket jumping, item bumping, and platforming.

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, rzh said:

Yeah, I really like it, helped me greatly get my timing right.

Are there any other maps with similar concepts or variations on this map?

Like an Archvile jump training map, or a SR50 training map.

In addition to Practice Hub, for arch-vile jumps specifically there is the aptly-named avj.wad.

Share this post


Link to post
On 5/7/2021 at 10:29 AM, NeilJohnRips said:

Mebe by the time I get to them the list would probably be obsolete... Because I'm terrible at doom.:D

 

Good grief more than a year since I'd said I'll do it. "obsolete because I'm terrible at doom"? More like "terrible at even starting".

 

 

I was wondering if all these wads you can pistol start every level or are some of them not possible to do on pistol starting?

Share this post


Link to post

I started in January and have made it to The Plutonia Experiment so pistol starting is definitely manageable up to this point (no saves, all kills and secrets), someone else would need to provide direction for WADs beyond this.

 

It is worth considering not bothering with pistol starting as for some maps it definitively adds to the grind. I have enjoyed this grind so far but it would not be for everyone and I will drop it if the fun factor dips. I recommend finding a balance you enjoy and retain an openness to changing your imposed constraints on your journey through the WADs if needed - I don't think it is a good plan to sign up to a rigid plan before the first WAD and then drag yourself through every other WAD in the same way because that's what you said before you started. Obviously, pistol starting is only one element and may not be as big a factor as the maps just getting harder - i.e., I expect to have more issues with maps that I just plain struggle to beat than ones I can only beat without a pistol start.

 

I would be interested to see how this progresses for you so let us know how it goes.

Share this post


Link to post

In case anyone's feeling lazy, here's the list as of today in text-format (somewhat pruned):

 

I usually keep track of my progressions in games in various documents and spreadsheets (because I'm an obsessive little man) so I usually find myself wanting stuff like this available as pure text.
 

Spoiler

Doom
(doom.wad)

Fava Beans
(fava.wad)

Doom 2
(doom2.wad)

TNT: Evilution
(tnt.wad)

Base Ganymede
(bgcomp.wad)

SIGIL
(sigil.wad)

Moonblood
(moonbld.wad)

Memento Mori
(mm.wad)

The Plutonia Experiment
(plutonia.wad)

Scythe
(scythe.wad)

Rush
(rush.wad)

Ancient Aliens
(aaliens.wad)

Valiant
(valiant.wad)

Alien Vendetta
(av.wad)

Hell Revealed
(hr.wad)

Speed of Doom
(sodfinal.wad)

Scythe 2
(scythe2.wad)

Combat Shock 2
(c-shock2.wad)

Sunder
(sunder 21813.wad)

Stardate 20X6
(stardate20X6.wad)

Deus Vult II
(dvii-1i.wad)

Sunlust
(sunlust.wad)

Flotsam
(flotsam.wad)

No Chance
(nochance.wad)

Italo Doom
(italo.wad)

Dimensions
(dmnsns.wad)

 

And, without WAD files:

Spoiler

Doom
Fava Beans
Doom 2
TNT: Evilution
Base Ganymede
SIGIL
Moonblood
Memento Mori
The Plutonia Experiment
Scythe
Rush
Ancient Aliens
Valiant
Alien Vendetta
Hell Revealed
Speed of Doom
Scythe 2
Combat Shock 2
Sunder
Stardate 20X6
Deus Vult II
Sunlust
Flotsam
No Chance
Italo Doom
Dimensions

 

Edited by Cinnamon

Share this post


Link to post

Figured I'd try my hand at slowly improving and changing my playstyle so this topic's a treat. I've already gone through Ultimate Doom and Fava Beans today from pistol start, without saves, it was very simple. Gotta admit it felt funny to visit rooms, in UltDoom, I almost never visited because I never had to (unless I wanted UV max for the monsters) like the chainsaw room in E1M6 and a few other extra rooms across the episodes. Most importantly it's a new way I experienced the IWAD so that was worth it for that.

 

This is a damn good list, not sure I'll go through it all cause there's some wads in this that scares me just thinking about PLAYING them. If anything it'll make me revisit other wads like TVR!, Icarus, Demonfear and whatnot with a new form of challenge. (could be added in the list in bolded as some sort of supplement to the rest, albeit optional.)

 

Same time also i'm trying to move away from always using the Z family of sourceports, DSDA Doom's been wonderful. Thank you for the list, now Doom 2 is next.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×