Ultimate Doom “In Name Only” - [Limit Removing] - Artist for titlepic/M-Doom etc needed

8 hours ago, cannonball said:

The only worry at the moment for me is E1M7

What’s the status of E1M7? Is it missing completely?

^This map has been in development hell for most of this thread with multiple claimants coming and going, a few experiencing issues outside

of anyone’s control. Maybe map slots with the word computer in them are cursed???? 
 

I am getting the feeling that May will pass without much progress. @Nine Inch Heels, @dobu gabu maru how is progress going in regards to the end of episode 3?

Final few touches, and then passing it over to a few people to see if it's "ready enough"...

 

I don't think there's much in it that could break, but I wanna get a few things that I didn't think of caught, if there are any...

Cheers for the update;

Right regarding the maps already submitted, whilst any gameplay issues will be brought up and addressed during beta testing. I will look into which maps that might need a little more visual polish.

Just a quick overview and this is just my opinion;

E1M1 - I think this one is okay, author's discretion. I always like the sense of place and scale (Even with the textures used).

E1M2 - Again I like the visuals for this.

E1M3 - This one could need a little more tweaking. Probably the one with most work needed in E1.

E1M4 - The main issue here is probably more to do with removing some of the doors in this one to make this flow better.

E1M5 - This one is probably fine.

E1M6 - N/A (My map so it is best for others to comment)

E1M7 - No entry as of yet, I will allow @MikeyScoots until the end of the month, if there is no response then I might need to explore other options.

E1M8 - Looking back at this, the hellishness feels a little too haphazard (I know that seems odd given that by definition this should be fine), but it does feel a little jarring and could do with a little cleaning up.

E1M9 - N/A (My map so it is best for others to comment)

 

So for Episode 1 - I think maps 3, 4 and 8 could use a little more work

 

E2M1 - This one is fine, good detail and a strong sense of theme

E2M2 - A more classic theme, but visually solid, this is fine.

E2M3 - This one could do with a little cleaning up, the version I have at the very least has some mid-texture issues (Inconsistent height levels).

E2M4 - The author hasn't been on here in a long while, I think a few alterations towards the end could be beneficial

E2M5 - This map is classic Mouldy, it is solid.

E2M6 - Like E2M1, this is solid and the streamlined version is much better.

E2M7 - This one is fine now after the Dobu edits.

E2M8 - This one is fine.

E2M9 - Again the edits made mean it probably won't need touching again.

 

Maps 3 and 4 could use a little work in this episode.

 

E3M1 - This one is one that is quite old, so could do with a little tidying up.

E3M2 - This one is solid.

E3M3 - This one is also fine

E3M4 - Now the house has more pain, this one is fine and a short map is a good move after the long E3M3

E3M5 - I am still glad that some of Corsair's original ideas were made into this. Visually there shouldn't need to be any changes.

E3M6 - Another good looking map, no need for any changes.

E3M7 - N/A map pending

E3M8 - N/A Map pending

E3M9 - This one is fine aswell.

 

So far just map 1 could use a little visual cleaning up.

 

E4M1 - Now that the map was editted to suit the name, this one is fine.

E4M2 - This one is also fine.

E4M3 - Fine

E4M4 - Fine

E4M5 - N/A My entry, so other opinion needed.

E4M6 - Fine

E4M7 - Still being altered I believe at this time.

E4M8 - Fine

E4M9 - Fine

 

This episode is probably the closest to being fully done. At this point I am wondering whether it is best to address the visual edits individually or potentially get a couple of people to go through this with an episode give to each person. The maps overall fit the map name to a good degree, most the ones that I have flagged tend to be the older maps made under the strict vanilla limits set at the time. 

17 hours ago, cannonball said:

I am getting the feeling that May will pass without much progress. @Nine Inch Heels, @dobu gabu maru how is progress going in regards to the end of episode 3?

 

Hey cannonball, been stuck in development hell on this map, not enjoying the original blueprint I had designed & having zero will to map for it. I think what I have to do is set up a speedmapping goal (like with E3M9, E4M3) as I cranked those maps out fast and enjoyed working on them every step of the way. I've been trying to think up how to satisfy the "Limbo" theme while also being short enough that I can deliver it (or a mostly playable version) by the end of the month. If I'm not ready by then I'm going to give up the slot as it's never going to happen at this rate.

Also for E1M4, if you got any ideas about removing doors/speeding up gameplay, I'd say go for it. That one should be pretty quick to edit. When I'm done with E3M7 (or have admitted defeat) I'll run through what we have for UDINO and provide lengthier feedback. Like you I think most of the maps are set, will have to play the older fellas to see how they hold up.

^That looks very nice, suitably striking and imposing. 
I hope you can get over the mapper’s block for E3M7 Dobu. Not sure if there worth brainstorming possible ideas that match the map name (All I can think of is some kind of small fortress suspended in a void disassociated from the rest of hell).

I will have a look at E1M4 as this should be an hour or so worth of work, though I do need to actually start a map for Mayhem21 at some point.

 

13 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

I've been trying to think up how to satisfy the "Limbo" theme while also being short enough that I can deliver it

 

10 minutes ago, cannonball said:

I hope you can get over the mapper’s block for E3M7 Dobu. Not sure if there worth brainstorming possible ideas that match the map name

 

Idea: Complicate the progression with a lot of divider ceilings that are just slightly too low for the player to move under because the engine doesn't allow them to "do the limbo." :P

2 hours ago, Not Jabba said:

 

 

 

Idea: Complicate the progression with a lot of divider ceilings that are just slightly too low for the player to move under because the engine doesn't allow them to "do the limbo." :P

Hmm that would be interesting, I must admit in retrospect doom guy has an impressive record, given the lack of ability to jump or crouch.

13 minutes ago, cannonball said:

Hmm that would be interesting, I must admit in retrospect doom guy has an impressive record, given the lack of ability to jump or crouch.

It also sounds suitably Hellish by Dante standards.

Here's a hell for those that like to do the limbo... there are so many opportunities! But sorry bro, no crouching! Demonic torture at its finest.

19 hours ago, cannonball said:

E1M7 - No entry as of yet, I will allow @MikeyScoots until the end of the month, if there is no response then I might need to explore other options.

I don't want to come off as presumptuous, but I would be more than happy to fill this slot if the worst case scenario comes to pass. I have a pretty distinct aesthetic in mind for a computer-themed level, and have even created various prototypes exploring said aesthetic for use in my own projects, so I should be able to finish such a project in a short time-frame.

 

I would also be willing to give E3M7 a shot, since I have become quite enamored with incomprehensible voidscapes of late, though filling in for a mastermind like Dobu Gabu Maru is likely well beyond my current capabilities.

 

Regardless, I just wanted to let you know that I am willing and (hopefully) able to render assistance if need be, though doubtless you have many other options available. I say this because I have become quite invested in this project of late. There are so many interesting maps here, some of them genuine masterpieces, notably E3M6, which has to be one of the most brilliant levels I have ever played. I may need to write a mega-post waxing poetic about it at some point...

 

Anyway, I wish the best to you and the UDINO team! If you guys manage to get this monster done, I think a Mordeth Award may be in order!

It's not my place to object, but do you think 2 maps on the stove + whatever you may have going on otherwise is feasible..?

15 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

It's not my place to object, but do you think 2 maps on the stove + whatever you may have going on otherwise is feasible..?

Fair point. My solution would be to simply put my other projects on hold until my submissions are complete. I organize my projects by time-sensitivity already, so this wouldn't be much of an issue. It is possible that I am underestimating the build-time of an appropriately-sized map (for context, my longest map generally takes 10-15 mins to finish).

 

Would it be fair to presume that something like your E3M6 would take something like 50-100 hours? I was thinking of doing something a lot smaller and less ambitious, maybe in the 10-20 hour range in terms of build-time (excluding playtesting/bugfixing/miscellaneous fiddling).

 

Additionally, I would not expect to be required to do both, it was more of an 'either/or' sort of deal. If need be, I would do both, but that was not the 'ideal' outcome I had in mind, if that makes sense.

12 minutes ago, Omniarch said:

Would it be fair to presume that something like your E3M6 would take something like 50-100 hours?

I honestly couldn't tell how much time went into that map roughly, let alone precisely... I think some of my ideas got stuck on vanilla format technicalities (I usually make boom format maps), so I had to find ways to work around a few things. The layout and the general ideas etc, "the rough cut", that was done over the course of less than a week with like 2 - 3 hours of mapping per day maybe, on the other hand I had to sink a fair bit of time into testing and making smaller adjustments, testing again etc... So the "raw build time" could be well below the 50hr mark, but "all inclusive" it's definitely above 50hrs I'd say... I just don't know by how much...

7 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

I honestly couldn't tell how much time went into that map roughly, let alone precisely... I think some of my ideas got stuck on vanilla format technicalities (I usually make boom format maps), so I had to find ways to work around a few things. The layout and the general ideas etc, "the rough cut", that was done over the course of less than a week with like 2 - 3 hours of mapping per day maybe, on the other hand I had to sink a fair bit of time into testing and making smaller adjustments, testing again etc... So the "raw build time" could be well below the 50hr mark, but "all inclusive" it's definitely above 50hrs I'd say... I just don't know by how much...

Interesting. Thanks for the info! Should help make my build-time estimates a little more accurate at least.

 

One last annoying, tenuously-related question: how did E3M6 end up being so, for lack of a better term, 'professional', despite the fact that (according to the wiki) you have released only a handful of maps? Do you have piles of unreleased maps lying around, or do you just have a really good 'theoretical' understanding of the craft? I ask this because I often find myself compensating for a lack of practical experience by immersing myself in theory (much of it articulated by you, actually), and I want know if this is practical, or simply a poor excuse. Since you are one of the best 'theory' writers out there, I thought I'd take the opportunity to ask. 

1 hour ago, Omniarch said:

I don't want to come off as presumptuous, but I would be more than happy to fill this slot if the worst case scenario comes to pass. I have a pretty distinct aesthetic in mind for a computer-themed level, and have even created various prototypes exploring said aesthetic for use in my own projects, so I should be able to finish such a project in a short time-frame.

 

I would also be willing to give E3M7 a shot, since I have become quite enamored with incomprehensible voidscapes of late, though filling in for a mastermind like Dobu Gabu Maru is likely well beyond my current capabilities.

 

Regardless, I just wanted to let you know that I am willing and (hopefully) able to render assistance if need be, though doubtless you have many other options available. I say this because I have become quite invested in this project of late. There are so many interesting maps here, some of them genuine masterpieces, notably E3M6, which has to be one of the most brilliant levels I have ever played. I may need to write a mega-post waxing poetic about it at some point...

 

Anyway, I wish the best to you and the UDINO team! If you guys manage to get this monster done, I think a Mordeth Award may be in order!

 

I guess it is a case of wait and see regarding the two map slots. I would certainly advice only going for one. I may take one if needs be come the end of the month, though I am certainly not keen on making another E1 Map. Ironically a month or so ago I did make something resembling a back up map for this, it got retrofitted into a person Doom2 wad I am currently making. I do have a vision for E3M7 that could work that I might make regardless of the final situation (I can always use these elsewhere).

Thanks for the kind words by the way, I will happily accept the shame of the mordeth award because honestly I haven't handled being in charge at all well. Any other more positive awards are on the fantastic talent who have contributed to this project. The one thing I will say is that there is a great variety of mappers and ideas in this wad, ranging from your classic styles to Time Of Death, and everything in between.

1 minute ago, cannonball said:

Any other more positive awards are on the fantastic talent who have contributed to this project. The one thing I will say is that there is a great variety of mappers and ideas in this wad, ranging from your classic styles to Time Of Death, and everything in between.

That's what I love about UDINO. Fascinating variety, constrained by a simple and ingenious core concept. Not gonna lie, I wish I had been around during the project's hayday, which definitely influenced my earlier post. CPs like this don't come around very often, and the notion of working on the same project as greats like Dobu Gabu Maru, Nine Inch Heels or yourself is an appealing one indeed. Ach well, maybe when I've been around a bit longer, I could host a CP of my own. Who can say?

 

Also, obligatory sad fan statement: don't exclude yourself from the 'fantastic talent'. All of your maps here are pure vintage cannonball and I love 'em ;)

47 minutes ago, cannonball said:

Thanks for the kind words by the way, I will happily accept the shame of the mordeth award because honestly I haven't handled being in charge at all well.

It's ok, just remember who you took over from. This project could easily have gone the way of its predecessor, and I've only really been watching this distantly over the years but with you in charge; along with the kinda co-leading from dobu, I feel this project is in much better hands and that'll show in the end product.

44 minutes ago, Omniarch said:

One last annoying, tenuously-related question: how did E3M6 end up being so, for lack of a better term, 'professional', despite the fact that (according to the wiki) you have released only a handful of maps? Do you have piles of unreleased maps lying around, or do you just have a really good 'theoretical' understanding of the craft? I ask this because I often find myself compensating for a lack of practical experience by immersing myself in theory (much of it articulated by you, actually), and I want know if this is practical, or simply a poor excuse. Since you are one of the best 'theory' writers out there, I thought I'd take the opportunity to ask.

I mean... I don't know if my e3m6 counts as "professional". It's probably not the worst map I ever made, but even when I look at it now I find bits and pieces that I think I could improve, most of which are related to visuals... But then again at some point I want to just give the map a rest, and I'm also not a "heavy detailer" by any stretch of the imagination... "Doesn't look completely horrible" is good enough for me in most cases, especially when I've got only stock textures to work with... The visuals for the Mayhem map I made with rd came about much easier and more naturally than either of my udino maps could ever hope to, at least once the theme we ended up sticking to came together... This one though? I would've killed for doom2 stock textures, just to have something more to choose from, because doom2 has flats and textures which would have gone a really long way for me while I made e3m6, and e3m8... And don't get me started on the vastly superior Doom2 roster... but I digress...

 

I don't have much in the way of unreleased maps, actually... I have something I'm still working on from time to time when I feel like I want to scratch that itch, but I don't really do all that much in the way of mapping myself... I wouldn't even call myself "mapper" in the sense that I'm not someone who spends most of their "doom time" on mapping, it's not even close to 50/50, more like 5% mapping, 45% playing, and 50% arguing on the forums LMAO... Talk about being "productive"... I think I'm somewhat decent when it comes to looking at maps and thinking about them, both in terms of gameplay and sometimes "technology", but I never got into this whole idea of "developing a standard" I'd want to keep living up to - just gets in the way of my personal amusement... I just like slightly mean-spirited gameplay first and foremost, and somehow I put that in a not too terrible "shell" of a map from time to time...

3 minutes ago, Nine Inch Heels said:

Stuff

Hmmm... very interesting. Not at all what I was expecting, but strangely intuitive nevertheless.

 

I honestly couldn't tell you what it is that makes E3M6 stand out to me. Sure, I could write a dozen chunky paragraphs analyzing it from every-which-way, but I'm not sure that would help tbh. There's just... something special about it, about the way all its various components mesh. Naturally, I chalked this quality up to some sort of 'master plan' on your part, since I can't imagine achieving such results myself without one. Truly, art is a strange thing.

 

Anyway, I'm taking this too damn seriously! Thanks for your time, I love nothing more than this sort of trivial hobbyist pursuit. I shan't derail this... rather lengthy thread any further, lest cannonball condemn me to his E4M5 for eternity (and I thought there was no such thing as too many cybers... *shudders*)

1 minute ago, Omniarch said:

There's just... something special about it, about the way all its various components mesh. Naturally, I chalked this quality up to some sort of 'master plan' on your part, since I can't imagine achieving such results myself without one.

So... The "master plan" was to make the map uncomfortable in ways that wouldn't exclusively involve combat, which is something that works well for a kind of "mountain-y" map... There's some platforming (a lot, actually), some climbing, some small to medium sized fights (some of which involve spatial awareness and punish lack thereof), and even though the map looks pretty "wide", you don't really tend to get a lot of legroom most of the time... Other than that it's a linear map that just takes you on a loop early on, and the rest is A B C D E.... That's also why the layout and the progression was relatively easy to put together naturally without much planning... I literally just started mapping, and it kinda worked...

20 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

I've been trying to think up how to satisfy the "Limbo" theme while also being short enough that I can deliver it (or a mostly playable version) by the end of the month.

For some reason I thought of the whole fiasco about the adventure game "Limbo of the Lost", and how most of its elements had been taken from other games. And that brought to mind the idea of a level that's mostly made of bits of recognizable areas from the previous episodes. Set pieces from Phobosino and Deimosino, broken down by Hell, still faintly recognizable but irretrievably lost to the darkness. Very low light level throughout, relatively few encounters at first, to give it some sort of creepy/haunted feeling.

That's an intriguing idea, Gez, and I think it'd work since it's the penultimate map (well, of the first three original episodes, at least). Early on I had the idea of a big interconnected ancient Greek/Roman-style city (similar to Dante's take on it, though I had misimagined 'castle' as whole city), and I was imagining having it mostly empty (or maybe with some small enemies, zombiemen and/or lost souls) and letting the player explore before unleashing a giant wave of enemies to fight off while waiting for the exit to open. Then dobu had an idea for taking sections of that ancient city and scattering them across a black void. I wonder if something like that might work - taking sections of other UDINO levels from the first three episodes. Not sure if it'd work better as segments suspended in a void, or actually fused together, but the idea of keeping it low light and somber fits, and gameplay wise, could still keep that creepy/haunted feel early on, let the player explore, grab keys, then unlock the last fight/exit... hmm

 

 

19 hours ago, Magnusblitz said:

I wonder if something like that might work - taking sections of other UDINO levels from the first three episodes.

 

So this is something that I can do and it's right up my alley (my Megiddo section from NOVA MAP30 was exactly this), but I didn't give it any serious consideration because I generally like taking a "been there, done that" approach with my mapping where I'm not leaning on the same style more than once or twice. Do you think this would be something people would find clever/interesting? Since I'd be repurposing "sections" from older maps it would be very easy to incorporate since I'd be gluing levels together rather than making anything from scratch. My issue is that I just don't know if that by itself is interesting enough.

6 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

 

So this is something that I can do and it's right up my alley (my Megiddo section from NOVA MAP30 was exactly this), but I didn't give it any serious consideration because I generally like taking a "been there, done that" approach with my mapping where I'm not leaning on the same style more than once or twice. Do you think this would be something people would find clever/interesting? Since I'd be repurposing "sections" from older maps it would be very easy to incorporate since I'd be gluing levels together rather than making anything from scratch. My issue is that I just don't know if that by itself is interesting enough.

It’s worth a shot at least, it has been a long time since Nova - The Birth so it might be interesting to revisit this concept again. I don’t know whether to just build this into a normal hellish terrain or have this as an isolated island in the void? Part of me feels like this twisted idea could sit well in a void-esque background (or maybe I just have a current thing for void maps).

I might have some free time to take a whirl this weekend. But of course if dobu would like to do something else it's all his.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Magnusblitz

10 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

Do you think this would be something people would find clever/interesting?

I would find this interesting... You know, to me, a limbo is always something like a "half-state", a place between 2 opposing states, so there's either some creative liberty to incorporate E1 geometry with E3/E4 geometry (at the potential risk of making it all feel and look like something from E2), or some barren if not void-ish kind of deal that is, let's say, polarized in nature, with the player moving between or to and from either pole...

15 hours ago, Magnusblitz said:

I might have some free time to take a whirl this weekend. But of course if dobu would like to do something else it's all his.

 

If you have an idea, I say go for it and see what you come up with—the slot was originally yours after all. I have something in mind for the start, but no gameplay hook has come to me yet, especially since I want something more laid back and stress-free given that E3M7 is wedged between Heels' maps.

 

I honestly have a better idea for E1M7 of all things.

11 minutes ago, dobu gabu maru said:

I honestly have a better idea for E1M7 of all things.

I'd pay money to see your take on E1, tbh.

 

At risk of sounding like a sycophantic sad-sack, I really admire your lateral approach to Doom mapping, and tend to find your works both inspirational (not directly, since I'm not really the puzzler type, more in terms of illustrating the potential of the medium) and challenging (in both an artistic and mechanical sense). I try not to use the term 'genius' lightly, but I feel your stuff tends to fit the criteria.

 

So naturally I would love to see a dobu-distortion of an E1 techbase, more so even than an abstract, hellish voidscape, since you seem to have covered the whole unfathomable alien dimension shtick pretty thoroughly already (like in Saturnine Chapel or The Given, just to name the one's I've played).

 

Either way, I'm sure the result will be memorable and unique. That does seem to be your forte, after all.

9 hours ago, dobu gabu maru said:

I want something more laid back and stress-free given that E3M7 is wedged between Heels' maps.

Between a "rock" and a hard place, you say...? :P

 

I've handed a playable version of E3M8 out for some testing, and since then also made it a bit easier (because 2 people who know what they're doing found it tricky), and I'll put the updated version right here when I did some visual tweaks to see what others have to say about the map as is... It's not my goal to make it the toughest boss fight there ever was, but I do want it to be a fight, nonetheless... So we'll see how it goes...