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netnomad312

Node builders & ZDoom.

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Hello. I've never been on this board before because, until today, I never had a working source port. But it turns out I was just using the wrong ones those several years ago...

I've been told that WadAuthor's node builder screws up some source ports. I've also read Linguica's review of my first ever submission; he said that he got stuck between two doors with no way out, and one door had no texture. From his screenshots, I could tell he was using ZDoom. So I figured, what the hell. I tried my wad in ZDoom, and I found no such error. Ling also took a shot of a HOM he found. I went to that same place and found nothing wrong. I thought I was neglegent, that I had made errors... but now that I can't see them, I'm just pissed off.

Would someone please tell me what the hell Ling found? And can you explain why WA's node builder doesn't word with "OpenGL source ports?" I have asked the creator of WA if he knew this, but he has no idea what it means...

I'm not sure what /newstuff chronicles it was, but my wad was just called the Library.

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netnomad312 said:

Would someone please tell me what the hell Ling found?


It could be the same error I found with a couple of levels. If so, it is due to node building. I don't remember the detail, and my notes are on a different machine, but basically what happens is in the node build there is a tiny 1 unit wide sliver of another sector, or seg or whatever the correct term is that cuts acrosss the one you (or another item) is on. This usually only matters if there are sectors of significantly varying height near each other. It you (or an item) end up standing right on the 1 unit wide sliver, then you can end up at the height of the sector it thinks it belongs to. If this is quite a bit lower than the nearby sectors, then you will be stuck and looking at non existant lower side defs without textures on them.

It's very hard to land directly on the sliver deliberately, even if you know where it is (I know there is one in blastem2 which can trap a baron of hell) because they are so narrow and invisible. I used to have a save game with a baron stuck in the sliver on blastem2.

The way to fix it is to try another node builder, or to use Zdoom's internal builder (activate by setting gennodes 1 at the console and starting a new game or via a config file).

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Enjay said:

The way to fix it is to try another node builder, or to use Zdoom's internal builder (activate by setting gennodes 1 at the console and starting a new game or via a config file).

FYI the internal ZDOOM nodebuilder can also have quirks. Somebody had a level posted here a week or so ago that exhibited a problem with the "trick" 3D floors where in one area the player "falls through". It was not a map problem (since building the nodes externally fixed it) and I told him to send the level to Randy (don't know if he did).

To Netno (since Enjay already knows):

Various ports behave differently on exactly the same level (iow not always the nodes per se). Overall trying alternate node builders is a good idea. Sometimes just shifting an angled object a unit or so fixes it too - but it can be difficult to determine the object:)

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Speaking of weird little slivers that things can get stuck in, I see that fairly often in level 32 of Plutonia when playing ZDoom. When I played through it last, there was a Cyberdemon, and an Arachnotron stuck in slivers. The Arachnotron was dead, and when the Cyberdemon fired its missiles, they couldn't go anywhere, and just exploded right in front of the Cyberdemon. Mind you, the splash damage still reached through the floor, but it made it really easy to kill with rockets or BFG blasts. I was wondering why they got stuck below the floor like that.

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Oh yes, I wasn't trying to make any claim that the Zdoom node builder can fix all problems. Clearly, from the example quoted, it doesn't and there are also many instances where one node builder makes a better job of a certain map than another one would (as suggested).

It's just that I am aware that this "sliver" problem is something that Zdoom is sensitive to, and in the 3 levels where I discovered it, the Zdoom internal node builder fixed that specific problem and I didn't notice any problems elsewhere on the levels in question. In fact I have had a copy of Zdoom installed with "gennodes 1" in the autoexec.cfg for months now and not had any node building problems with it (although, again, obviously some levels have a problem as stated - I just haven't seen them).

FYI, DeePBSP also fixed the "sliver" levels in question with respect to Zdoom and I have no idea what the original author used to build the nodes.

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I don't think these "sliver" problems were what Ling saw. In his second screenshot, it showed a HOM about 64 units long.

Could someone please go get this wad and see if you encounter any bugs? It's nnlbrary.zip (not in /ports; just in /doom2).

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netnomad312 said:

I don't think these "sliver" problems were what Ling saw. In his second screenshot, it showed a HOM about 64 units long.


They don't look like slivers in game. Until you end up caught in one, they are invisible. Once you are caught, they look exactly like regular HOM problems, the size of which depends on the area enclosed by other, real lines. So it could easily look like a 64 uit wide HOM (in fact that's exactly what the first one I saw was like). But I am just guessing.

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netnomad312 said:

You saw one? Did you play my library wad?


Yes, I saw 3, in the 3 different WADs I was on about. I haven't played your WAD, but will do when I get my computer problems ironed out. I haven't played doom for days now (looks down at my trembling hands). I feel like I need to go to Doomaholics Anonymous or something. :-)

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I just downloaded it and played it. The level seems decent enough, and I encountered no HOMs whatsoever, running in ZDoom. Dunno what Ling's problem was...

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Well, if it is the problem I was suggesting, then it is quite difficult to deliberately find an example. It's just (un)happy coincidence if you happen to stand still on a 1 unit wide sliver in the node build.

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Somehow, I still doubt that it's the sliver problem. What are the odds that Ling gets stuck in a closed room and sees such a HOM in the same game? And BTW, I never made any small room with two doors closed in that level. I'd sure as hell like to know where Ling got trapped.

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netnomad312 said:

I've been told that WadAuthor's node builder screws up some source ports.....And can you explain why WA's node builder doesn't word with "OpenGL source ports?"

About WadAuthor's internal nodebuilder, see my reply to your post in the Editing Forums.

You are quite correct about WA's node builder messing up some parts of maps in Open GL source ports, particularly GLLegacy. jDooM, however, is different, as it requires an independent node build; therefore, you don't generally have the problems you do with GLLegacy. I don't know about ZDooM GL. However, I have run maps through ZenNode, and they've still had some problems in GLLegacy.

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