[TIME IS UP!] Literalism - A Boom-compatible CP where we do things by the map title

3 hours ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

I assume this version is mostly layout-finished?

More than that. 80% or so of the areas are done

@Pistoolkip Feedback for your (almost finished?) map:

• Nice visuals with great use of textures and excellent detail work. I also loved how the different "sections" of the map sort of have their own, distinct styles.
• Speaking of detail, bonus points for the flushable toilet. :D
• Layout is pretty good for the most part. Navigating the cramped corridors of the "house" with the yellow skull in it is a tiny bit annoying, but that's my only gripe layout-wise.
• Great gameplay, lots of fun combat scenarios with a good amount of challenge. The wall-shooting mechanic is the definite highlight of the map, though - it's a great, if perhaps predictable, interpretation of the map title.
• No bugs caught.

i finally got some fidget toys to help me focus, so progress on the map is now coming along smoothly :)

I finished a first version of my map. This is probably my biggest, most ambitious map so far. Some areas are not yet entirely done (particularly, some of the secret areas are a bit under-detailed). I am also not entirely satisfied with how the outdoor landscape looks, but this version is fully playable. Now, I want to take some time to look at the other submissions in this thread and give some feedback.

The map is in map slot 1, and all custom textures are included within the wad.

CathedralOfRhyza.rar

Map name: Cathedral of Rhyza (first test version)
Author: PinkFlamingo
Play time: 15 minutes
Music: Cryptology by Jimmy
Textures: Otex 1.1 by Ola Björling (ukiro), "Q1EX*" textures from Quake and its expansions, "HX2TX*" textures from Hexen 2 (both converted to Doom by Ceeb), sky texture by Mechadon.
Difficulty settings: Not yet
Coop: Not yet
Deathmatch: Not yet

Description: A large map that focuses heavily on atmosphere and immersion. After I received the map title, I envisioned a dark medieval map with a cathedral at its center. Originally, I wanted to build an entire village around the cathedral but I quickly realized that I was never going to be able to finish that before the deadline, so I scrapped that idea. I added in a lot of secret areas to encourage exploration.

@PinkFlamingo

Here're my 3 demo attempts (UV-death, UV-death, ITYTD-ok)

Nice map with self-destructing and destructible environment, but some planks are destructible not from all their sides - that's somewhat that could be improved maybe.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lwrh0en8exlioyi/CathedraSMTDA.zip?dl=1

1 hour ago, PinkFlamingo said:

Map name: Cathedral of Rhyza (first test version)

Very nice map! Looks great, fun to play. Mostly easygoing, but the fights for the blue and red keys have some real bite to them. Some comments:

• The chaingun in the caves is hard to see, and I missed it the first time around (it's not within sector lit by the torch).
• In the red key room, there's some misaligned textures inside the alcoves, after the walls break.
• Once you get the red key, a hallway opens open up with a bunch of ammo, but it's not very obvious and players are likely focused on the red switch as the next objective (at least I was). And pressing the switch closes off the hallway. I was pretty confused during my first attempt when all the enemies started teleporting in and I had no rockets to fight them with.
• Also, while that hallway has a bunch of ammo, it doesn't have any health. So if you'd picked up all the health in the main hall earlier on, you're out of luck.
• That said, the last fight is a bit of a letdown. Once you've taken out the archviles, there's enough room to circle around the area, and the spider mastermind is more helpful than anything. And that was without the secret plasma or bfg, which I never found.

On 7/31/2021 at 2:04 PM, Pistoolkip said:

looks good! Hope it plays as well as it does. I find church benches generally don't play well, unfortunately.

Thanks! The church benches can indeed be an annoying obstacle (good point). I made them sink into the floor before the big fight starts.

On 7/31/2021 at 2:04 PM, Pistoolkip said:

Not to brag, but check out MAP04 of this WAD for an interesting take on a hell cathedral with plenty of action, all vanilla textures

Wow. Very nice WAD, looks very professional! I'm going to play through this and leave a comment in the corresponding thread.

1 hour ago, SilverMiner said:

Here're my 3 demo attempts (UV-death, UV-death, ITYTD-ok)

Nice map with self-destructing and destructible environment, but some planks are destructible not from all their sides - that's somewhat that could be improved maybe.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lwrh0en8exlioyi/CathedraSMTDA.zip?dl=1

Thanks for the demos. You play really well. Better than me.

Good point on the destructible planks! I'll fix that for the next version.

16 minutes ago, SCF said:

Very nice map! Looks great, fun to play. Mostly easygoing, but the fights for the blue and red keys have some real bite to them. Some comments:

• The chaingun in the caves is hard to see, and I missed it the first time around (it's not within sector lit by the torch).
• In the red key room, there's some misaligned textures inside the alcoves, after the walls break.
• Once you get the red key, a hallway opens open up with a bunch of ammo, but it's not very obvious and players are likely focused on the red switch as the next objective (at least I was). And pressing the switch closes off the hallway. I was pretty confused during my first attempt when all the enemies started teleporting in and I had no rockets to fight them with.
• Also, while that hallway has a bunch of ammo, it doesn't have any health. So if you'd picked up all the health in the main hall earlier on, you're out of luck.
• That said, the last fight is a bit of a letdown. Once you've taken out the archviles, there's enough room to circle around the area, and the spider mastermind is more helpful than anything. And that was without the secret plasma or bfg, which I never found.

Thanks! Concerning your points:

• I play in GZDoom with dynamic lights enabled so that explains why I never realized you couldn't see the chaingun well. I'll fix that.
• Noted! Will properly align those textures.
• Yes. That's a very good point. Maybe I can make the extra ammo appear in the main room instead, and leave that hallway open since the beginning? Will have to think about that.
• I can add a few medikits there, yes.
• I wasn't sure how difficult the final fight was. The Spider Mastermind does indeed 'save' you here, but I don't mind that. How about I make the current monster configuration HMP, and for UV I can add an additional two Archviles that will teleport in the circular hallway, when it opens up again?

3 hours ago, PinkFlamingo said:

I finished a first version of my map. This is probably my biggest, most ambitious map so far. Some areas are not yet entirely done (particularly, some of the secret areas are a bit under-detailed). I am also not entirely satisfied with how the outdoor landscape looks, but this version is fully playable. Now, I want to take some time to look at the other submissions in this thread and give some feedback.

The map is in map slot 1, and all custom textures are included within the wad.

CathedralOfRhyza.rar

Map name: Cathedral of Rhyza (first test version)
Author: PinkFlamingo
Play time: 15 minutes
Music: Cryptology by Jimmy
Textures: Otex 1.1 by Ola Björling (ukiro), "Q1EX*" textures from Quake and its expansions, "HX2TX*" textures from Hexen 2 (both converted to Doom by Ceeb), sky texture by Mechadon.
Difficulty settings: Not yet
Coop: Not yet
Deathmatch: Not yet

Description: A large map that focuses heavily on atmosphere and immersion. After I received the map title, I envisioned a dark medieval map with a cathedral at its center. Originally, I wanted to build an entire village around the cathedral but I quickly realized that I was never going to be able to finish that before the deadline, so I scrapped that idea. I added in a lot of secret areas to encourage exploration.

Just played through your map. I recorded it but didn't notice my mic was turned off, sorry about that. Hope the video still helps though.

Played on UV, died a couple of times but overall not very challenging until the last fight. I was really scrapped for ammo for most of the map but I also missed some ammo. Found some of the secrets, including one of the plasma's to deal with the final boss.

Very cool scripting! I love how the demons break through the walls which I will be stealing for 'breaking walls'. Sorry, but with a name like that, what can I do but steal some good ideas?

I did find the map to be too dark, especially in the early cave areas. I understand from another post that you are used to dynamic lighting, and at least you use torches to guide my way, but the caves and main cathedral could benefit from some more contrast. 

Love the benches coming down for the final fight by the way, very omnious.

Great texturing, but too much gray for me. Could use some more contrasts in light and texturing in the cathedral. It looks more medieval than hellish. Doom can be very colourful!

The music was great, and so were the plentiful secrets.

Hope this helps!

On 8/7/2021 at 9:37 PM, Pistoolkip said:

Map 24 Breaking Walls
WORK IN PROGRESS, PLAYTESTING NEEDED

 

Visuals are on point, I really liked the half-built look of the buildings. The gimmick works well, and it fits the map. It's generally pretty clear which walls you can destroy, although there's a couple of places where you used vertical wooden planks as an indestructible barrier and that was confusing at first. The gameplay maybe leans a bit much on "walk around corner, shoot imps and zombiemen", but there's still enough variation to keep it interesting. I can't say the music was very fitting though.

By the way, I played version 7 and I see you've already updated the map since then, so some of these issues might be fixed already.

• Crashed in PrBoom+ with an error about texture SKY3
• It's a little weird that some walls can only be broken from one side (like in the starting room). Makes sense from a gameplay perspective, but it didn't feel right.
• There's a teleporter in the first area that I didn't really get the point of. I thought it might be a secret at first, but it takes you to a location in the next room that you can just walk up to.
• The arachnotrons in the slime pit don't pop up if you come in from the other side (from the supercharge secret)
• The blue skull secret seems to be broken. The linedef is set to lower to the lowest floor, so the key never rises. The archvile also didn't teleport in but I didn't see why at a glance.
• After hitting the final switch, I got a hall of mirrors effect in the sky above the rightmost building.
• Gathering secret keys is always fun, but last fight is already fairly easy (definitely easier than the one at the red key) and the megasphere is behind the archvhile so you'll probably be almost done with the fight (and the map) by the time you get it. The same goes for the (non-secret secret?) BFG.

Still working on the randomized system. Got an idea, just need to build it.

Also found a random bug in an area i was done making 2 weeks ago so that was interesting. I don't think dbx like tagged lindefes without corresponding sectors ie the teleport to line boom action.

Quote

Crippling Vestiphobia @muumi

LITERALISM: YES. FOR REAL. No naked Doomguy, 10/10

ACTUAL REVIEW:

This certainly wasn't what I expected. A trip to the caves with full of... leftover cloth and hangmen? Whatever those were, they look fantastic, and really contribute to the overall feel of the level. The final arena has some sort of crazy detailing going on too, so nice job!

As for the gameplay, it's decently challenging. The various gameplay elements mashed together in a relatively big level (platforming, slaughtering demons, etc.) make the flow and pacing really consistent throughout, and I never once feel burned out playing the level, except maybe the end where I died quite a bit. (And I wasted my ammo trying to take down the first Spiderdemon... But the ammo balance is nice enough anyway, so eh)

Other comments:

• Why does the Cyberdemon's throne room has the throne facing backwards? It seems like a rather surreal design to me.
• In the arena down the lift (after triggering the red-yellow key switches), perhaps there should be some ammo scatterring around (I think shells are enough) to pick off enemies. Also, in the final room, when you exited the main map, there's a teleporter leading back to the underground crossroads (with a lot of health scattering around). The infinitely high enemies can make getting back to the already-dropped lift arena troublesome, as you can easily run out of ammo to kill off enemies. I suggest making the arena permanently openable instead of being closed off after an amount of time. 
• When you drop down the pit-thing in the final arena, it can be hard to see the switch amongst the chaos. Maybe make the lift getting back upwards a bit brighter/more stand out textures?
• I noticed a sky transfer bug in the final room, before the exit line (not shown in the video for pacing purposes)

8.5/10, very SFW.

10 hours ago, SCF said:

 

Visuals are on point, I really liked the half-built look of the buildings. The gimmick works well, and it fits the map. It's generally pretty clear which walls you can destroy, although there's a couple of places where you used vertical wooden planks as an indestructible barrier and that was confusing at first. The gameplay maybe leans a bit much on "walk around corner, shoot imps and zombiemen", but there's still enough variation to keep it interesting. I can't say the music was very fitting though.

 

By the way, I played version 7 and I see you've already updated the map since then, so some of these issues might be fixed already.

• Crashed in PrBoom+ with an error about texture SKY3
• It's a little weird that some walls can only be broken from one side (like in the starting room). Makes sense from a gameplay perspective, but it didn't feel right.
• There's a teleporter in the first area that I didn't really get the point of. I thought it might be a secret at first, but it takes you to a location in the next room that you can just walk up to.
• The arachnotrons in the slime pit don't pop up if you come in from the other side (from the supercharge secret)
• The blue skull secret seems to be broken. The linedef is set to lower to the lowest floor, so the key never rises. The archvile also didn't teleport in but I didn't see why at a glance.
• After hitting the final switch, I got a hall of mirrors effect in the sky above the rightmost building.
• Gathering secret keys is always fun, but last fight is already fairly easy (definitely easier than the one at the red key) and the megasphere is behind the archvhile so you'll probably be almost done with the fight (and the map) by the time you get it. The same goes for the (non-secret secret?) BFG.

 

 

Thanks for playing the map and providing feedback! Most helpful. Some issues have been solved but I'll work on the others

• no longer crashes in PRBoom+
• Music has been changed (I got sick of the happy bomberman theme too)
• Ending has been greatly improved, thanks to some voodoo-doll scripting
• Walls that can only be shot on one-side. Yeah, that's just how it is. I don't want the player to be able to skip huge parts of the map by shooting the right walls, especially because sometimes this just happens on accident. But I do like players to open up passages for back-tracking. 
• The teleporter is meant for people who can't do jumping puzzles. But I think I have a better solution in mind. 
• I'll rework the Supercharge secret to prevent the player from skipping a part of the map. I forgot you can now jump there from the wastecontainers
• Blue Skull Key worked fine on my end, but I'll change it regardless. Technically you can pick up the key without triggering the AV if you have infinitely tall actors on, but I don't think that's a huge issue
• The Megasphere and BFG are really only gifts for continuous gameplay, I agree. Not sure if I want another fight after this one. How did you find the BFG by the way? Did you shoot the billboard on purpose or was it accidently hit?
• I changed the texture of the shootable walls at the construction site late in development, but I do agree with you it's weird that some wood is shootable, while some isn't. I'll think of a solution.

Thanks again for your input!

17 hours ago, PinkFlamingo said:

Cathedral of Rhyza (first test version)

LITERALISM: Very religious building dedicated to an unseen figure that have a lot of heretics wanting to kill you - a righteous crusader. YES. 

ACTUAL REVIEW:

Wow, this map sure does look gorgeous! From a cave to a really huge church, everything looks really stunning and consistent throughout. The details are also top-notch - breakable planks (though I agree with SilverMiner on them not being breakable on all sides), demons breaking planks, plank benches, all that good stuff gives the map a sense of realism that I found really neat.

The exploration elements really add replay values to the map - I for once enjoy having to straferun to get to certain secrets on my second run (gameplay below); and that yellow key sidequest seems interesting. Gameplay is consistently challenging throughout, which is rather good.

That said, I'm echoing others on the map being too dark, and chaingun being particularly hard to spot (which is a point SCF elaborated on).

I actually don't have a problem on the starting cave - using torches as directional waypoints is a clever design, but it could be slightly brighter to spot enemies. Given the sky texture outdoors, it does make sense a bit to have a lower than average light settings, but still not at a good enough spot to read enemy positions. 

Other comments:

• There's this broken bridge near the actual cathedral, which is another cool detail. However, the sole armor placed there seems a tad bit surreal - perhaps add a corpse near the armor itself?

• The fork hallways leading to the cathedral seems a bit barren, imps aside. I think adding some decorations (corpses, eyes) can really improve the aesthetic by a ton.

Also, what's up with that hallway, with the main door being pretty much inaccessible?

• I too think the final fight needs a little bit more of fine-tuning, though for reasons that might be slightly different to what's already posted.

             + There's practically no flying enemies; besides maybe potatoes. This can probably be attributed to the setpiece itself, being left with no room for proper flying enemy ambushes. One suggestion for this would be adding hidden teleporters/closets behind the windows, with some Cacos teleporting in over time to spice up combat. 

             + Spiderdemon is bad. In this case, it's good, but not enough.

14 hours ago, PinkFlamingo said:

I wasn't sure how difficult the final fight was. The Spider Mastermind does indeed 'save' you here, but I don't mind that. How about I make the current monster configuration HMP, and for UV I can add an additional two Archviles that will teleport in the circular hallway, when it opens up again?

I'd say that's a good idea. However, have you considered the Cyberdemon replacement on UV?

If you want Archviles, maybe replace the Mancubis lurking behind with them?

• Bullet ammo balance is not very good if you don't go out of your way finding secrets - they only get more abundant near the end, by which point the chaingun becomes useless (there's gonna be a big fight going on). Some additional bullet boxes/clips can be placed inside the red key fight.

My UV gameplay footage, where I tried to negotiate with everyone using mostly my fingers. The intermission part is unfortunately ripped out, and only available off-screen.

8/10 - who is Rhyza?

1 hour ago, Pistoolkip said:

• How did you find the BFG by the way? Did you shoot the billboard on purpose or was it accidently hit?

I found it by opening the map in Doom Builder because I had no idea. And because it's not marked as a secret I thought it would just open up along with the megasphere if you had all keys. I don't think the solution is super obscure, I just wasn't looking for it. Also I missed the exit sign at the lift (it's a bit dark) so I ended up just exited the level without realizing.

My map ended up in development hell for a couple weeks because of some real life problems, but the geometry is basically almost done and I'll try to make a last ditch crunch to get the gameplay into a playable state in the next few days. Needless to say the result will not be super awesome, creative and beautiful, but it will hopefully be a map. I probably should have done the reasonable thing and given up my slot earlier but it wasn't in the front of my mind at the time.

5 hours ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

 

As for the gameplay, it's decently challenging. The various gameplay elements mashed together in a relatively big level (platforming, slaughtering demons, etc.) make the flow and pacing really consistent throughout, and I never once feel burned out playing the level, except maybe the end where I died quite a bit. (And I wasted my ammo trying to take down the first Spiderdemon... But the ammo balance is nice enough anyway, so eh)

Other comments:

• Why does the Cyberdemon's throne room has the throne facing backwards? It seems like a rather surreal design to me.
• In the arena down the lift (after triggering the red-yellow key switches), perhaps there should be some ammo scatterring around (I think shells are enough) to pick off enemies. Also, in the final room, when you exited the main map, there's a teleporter leading back to the underground crossroads (with a lot of health scattering around). The infinitely high enemies can make getting back to the already-dropped lift arena troublesome, as you can easily run out of ammo to kill off enemies. I suggest making the arena permanently openable instead of being closed off after an amount of time. 
• When you drop down the pit-thing in the final arena, it can be hard to see the switch amongst the chaos. Maybe make the lift getting back upwards a bit brighter/more stand out textures?
• I noticed a sky transfer bug in the final room, before the exit line (not shown in the video for pacing purposes)

 

Thanks for video and feedback! You figured out strategy on final arena eventually, I think the fight works quite well.

- Cyberdemon is tired of watching other demons and turned his throne. Its just to add some creepiness and make you look what's behind it :) 

- Good find with returning from exit arena. I did not think about situation where player escapes penultimate arena early and then returns from exit area. I need to think something here.

- Good point, that switch could be more visible for sure. 

- To the fix list

@PinkFlamingo Feedback for your map:

• Gorgeous visuals. Excellent use of textures and solid lighting, and the atmosphere is nothing short of great.
• Layout, while tending towards linearity, is not bad overall. I especially admire the outdoor area leading up to the cathedral, which is obviously the map's centerpiece. Together with the visuals, it gives the map a sense of place that you can almost touch with your hands.
• Gameplay is pretty fun overall. I enjoyed how the ammo felt pretty tight without being too much so - you absolutely nailed the ammo balance. I do feel like the PEs in the final battle aren't exactly ideal, especially in regards to infighting. With the Lost Souls that they spawn, the final battle has a chance to turn into somewhat of an ammo drain.
• No bugs caught.

3 minutes ago, muumi said:

Catacombs Imp

I gotta be literal somehow ;)

How is this for Monsters Breaking Walls?
 

2 minutes ago, Pistoolkip said:

How is this for Monsters Breaking Walls?
 

 

 

Damn, that looks rad. Saw a similar example in Flamingo's Cathedral, but yours seems much more intricate!

16 minutes ago, Pistoolkip said:

How is this for Monsters Breaking Walls?

Looks great! I just hope there'll be a way to take cover from the AV.

18 minutes ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

Damn, that looks rad. Saw a similar example in Flamingo's Cathedral, but yours seems much more intricate!

yeah I stole his idea. But his has better timing I think, and rubble appearing. I can't be bothered to add the rubble, since there is no rubble on any of the other breakable walls (and I can't be bothered to add rubble for 100+ breakable walls)

3 minutes ago, MFG38 said:

 

Looks great! I just hope there'll be a way to take cover from the AV.

there is, behind the wall where the enemies come from

Map name: MAP25 - Green Demons (WARNING: Slaughter)

Author: 4MaTC

Play time: About 20 minutes (better you tell me)

Music: Rendition of "Pain - Supersonic Bitch" (selecting midi is not my strong side, so if you can suggest another midi that would fit better - please, do)

Textures: OTEX, black and green texture pack by Agaures (aka Krumzy). metal trim from unknown source (can't remember) and some i made myself

Difficulty settings: yes (but tested only in UV)

Coop: no

Deathmatch: /no

Description:

Demons have sewers too, tho it's filled not with brown feces but with green nukage (over the years demons digestive system has changed a lot after eating all those marines wearing green armor: all these dyes and chemicals, you know, green armor is not a healthy food so what did you expected?) It's seems like it's common nukage, but it's not: doomguy is so used to it that it 's no longer hurts him. what are they doing here in such quantity? Who knows, maybe filming remake of Prodigy's Firestarter or TMNT movie...

@4MaTC Feedback for your map:

• Excellent visuals, great use of textures and top-notch lighting work.
• Pretty good layout. It does end up rather linear, but it works for the map's particular gameplay style.
• I'll admit to not being a big fan of the gameplay, but I know there's an audience for it, so that's as much as I'll say about it.
• BUG: A few of the Imps in the alcove that opens up in the second battle arena appear stuck and unable to move.

7 minutes ago, MFG38 said:

• I'll admit to not being a big fan of the gameplay, but I know there's an audience for it, so that's as much as I'll say about it

The gameplay seems to be highly reliant on inifinite-height-disabled ports. Would this be a major concern during map compilation to release?

1 minute ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:

The gameplay seems to be highly reliant on inifinite-height-disabled ports. Would this be a major concern during map compilation to release?

Only if the majority of people think that infinite height is a detriment to the gameplay experience. If that does turn out to be the case, the gameplay is easily tweaked to better accommodate infinite height by removing some monsters here and there. Which monsters to remove and where is up to the author.

7 hours ago, 4MaTC said:

Map name: MAP25 - Green Demons

 

I liked this map! It's nasty, but I still enjoyed playing it. It looks good, too.

I saw the discussions about the map not being designed around infinitely tall monsters so I was on the lookout for that, but to be honest, I didn't notice anything off. There weren't any fights where I thought it was an issue.

The one thing I didn't like is how it stops you from going back in several places. For example in the second room once the bars close, it didn't seem like you could ever return to the section in the first room hidden behind the wall. I don't think there was a way out of the final area either, as far as I could tell.

Also, if the final fight is possible without the secret BFG, it's way, way harder that way. I tried a few times without it and I kept ending up sandwiched by revenants. It doesn't help that the layout is very confusing at first. There's several nearly-identical looking rooms so it's kind of a maze. Maybe if you plan out a route you can do it without the BFG, but even with it it was a challenge.

@4MaTC

Here're my 2 demo attempts (ITYTD-death, ITYTD-ok)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/omiurfiqvqpcumy/4MaTCSMFDA.zip?dl=1

8 hours ago, 4MaTC said:

Play time: About 20 minutes (better you tell me)

It took me a bit more than 9 minutes

Update for Walking Lava: WalkingLava_v2.zip

Tweaked the final fight against the AV wave and Cyberdemons: The viles teleport in on the grassy plateau now, with the Cybs (who should teleport more consistently together). Added a sprinkling of Barons up top, as a small deterrent against rushing towards the exit. Overall I think this feels a lot more intense and enjoyable.  

I also added a few teleport pads across the lava lake, in case players fall in during the big brawl. The teleport pillars lower (and become useable) only after reaching the higher area, so players can't use them to sequence break the entire opening. The threat of falling off during that final slaughter was intentional, and something I wanted to keep, so I hope this compromise works well enough. 

I really appreciate all the feedback from everyone 👍

11 hours ago, SilverMiner said:

Here're my 2 demo attempts (ITYTD-death, ITYTD-ok)

Nice. Helped a lot. Spotted few minor bugs, one misalignment and got few ideas how to improve it (eg remove some cells and spheres on easy, make ledges shorter, so you could not spam cyberdemons with plasma from there). And TODO: way to teleport somewhere those monsters that you can left in first arena. Tho i can swear this HOMS are caused by some geometry glitch