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Jacek Bourne

What are the holes in doom 2’s monster roster and how could we fill them?

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3 hours ago, Capellan said:

 

Este, honestamente, é o único monstro do qual eu realmente sinto falta.

Ethereal Soul is literally like that, it also attacks corporally like Lost Soul and disappears which makes it playfully irritating.

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6 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

[obscured modding formats]

My personal ramble:

Spoiler

While these are indeed interesting alternatives (and I have decent knowledge about 2 of them), I feel suggesting something that has a sizable learning curve and being rather obscure is a waste of both me and the questioner's time - they were likely looking for accessibible modding tools/platforms. 

 

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1 minute ago, TheNoob_Gamer said:
Spoiler

I feel suggesting something that has a sizable learning curve and being rather obscure is a waste of both me and the questioner's time - they were likely looking for accessibible modding tools/platforms. 

 

 

Spoiler

 

I actually had no idea how accessibible any of them are when it came to the learning curve.


 

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I'd say we don't fill them at all. Don't fix what ain't broken. I actually don't really like other monsters than the ones that appear in the Doom 2 ending cast. I even never use Nazis and Commander Keens. I view them as created for two specific maps only and they should remain there only. That's it. And the only Icon Of Sin/Romero Head must be in map 30. Period. Doom is a game good enough without anything extra. Don't fix what ain't broken. 

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A 750 hit point Hell Knight.

The Afrit, a 2000 hitpoint floating Baron.

A Super Mancubus with double hitpoints.

A double hitpoint Super ArchVile which is red and can attack from double the distance. It can resurrect all monsters (Non ghost Cyberdemon, Mastermind and Arch Viles) and all monsters up to the Afrit it resurrects are ghost monsters.

 

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1 hour ago, spd7693 said:

I even never use Nazis and Commander Keens. I view them as created for two specific maps only and they should remain there only.

What do you think about replacing their sprites and sounds to fit more with Doom's aesthetic?

 

For example, Herian 2 changes the Nazis to fast-shooting zombies. They do look like the regular zombieman with blonde hair instead of green hair, but it's interesting how the Nazi can turn into a new zombie between the regular zombiemen and the chaingunners with only sprites and sound replacements.

 

It's possible to change Commander Keen into something else that's hanging, like a scarecrow or a fresh, destroyable cadaver.

 

And of course that's not taking into account DeHackEd and what it can do to replace those thing types completely.

1 hour ago, spd7693 said:

And the only Icon Of Sin/Romero Head must be in map 30. Period.

So no creative reactors that explode when you shoot them? It'd need a sound replacement, and a sprite replacement is recommended, but it can work.

 

I've seen a few custom maps make creative use of this Romero Head thing type, like in MAP11 of Dystopia 3 where you blow up Microsoft in order to end the level.

1 hour ago, spd7693 said:

Doom is a game good enough without anything extra. Don't fix what ain't broken. 

understandable have a nice day

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Well, yeah, flipping a crusher that would end the level or making a sorta shootable "switch" and posing it as a fake wall as there is a Romero's head behind it, that is a cool thing, but for more creative exits. The rest is redundant. Same as any new types of monsters. Making a different type of a monster makes the game not be Doom and feel more like Quake or Star Wars Dark Forces or Duke Nukem. Doom is Doom. What is not created by John Romero and John Carmack, except maps, textures and other things that are just for artistic purposes, doesn't belong in this game to me. 

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13 hours ago, Nikku4211 said:

Slade is also good for EDF for Eternity, DDF for EDGE and DOSDoom(as in the source port), DED for Doomsday and Risen3D, and ReMooD Data (formerly known as RMOD) for ReMooD.

 

Yes I know all of these source ports are obscure and rarely used, but it's still good information for anyone looking to try experimenting with them.

How to get into DOSDoom editing? As a port it's always kind of fascinated me. Doom Builder doesn't have a DOSDoom format, as far as I can tell (maybe I'm missing it), and all the cool features for DOSDoom really make we want to make maps for it. Especially since PRBoom+ has DOSDoom compatibility, as does ZDoom, I believe. 

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9 hours ago, K_Doom said:

In realm667 there are literally monsters that fulfill these requirements.

 

I know that. I was alluding to them. And like I said, attributes can be changed. I think the point of the question is "which monsters (theoretical or already created but not in the vanilla bestiary) would best round out the original lineup?"

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If we don’t replace doom2 enemies currently in the game or the icon of sin then how many new enemies could we create?

EDIT: I mean the Romero head when I say the icon of sin

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Maybe a lesser Arch-Vile (the Vile?) that is more focused on reviving enemies than attacking the player?

 

And maybe a mimic-style enemy that can disguise itself as power-ups?

 

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7 hours ago, spd7693 said:

Doom is a game good enough without anything extra

I think I disagree with this, I really think I disagree with this.  Doom's roster is great but the problem is that there is a finite amount of excellent maps you can make with the vanilla roster.  With even basic custom enemy work you can help make some interesting encounters that could make a wad standout from the pile of standard wads.

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I also think for a melee enemy a rabid zombie dog would make sense, like a Belgian Malinois that has military/police styled light armor for a dog, making it more resistant to punches and the chainsaw but fairly easy to take down with the guns. So maybe about the same strength as the lost souls from Doom 64, but with less pain chance from melee attacks. Perhaps it could also already be alerted to the player's presence as soon as the map starts, and they will try to seek the player out and then make their alert bark which could alert any nearby enemies to your presence. After all, they'd have better noses than demons and former humans for seeking out someone who should not be there.

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Yet another boss: Pain-vile. It spits lost souls, it heals demons, it burns you with fire, also demons don't take offence at it.

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Out of all the amazing custom monsters people have made over time. I have to give my favorites to the Angel of Death. He's imposing and wields two chainguns in an obvious homage to Wolfenstein, his palette has a few cyan pixels which means there are some new colors here but they stopped appearing for some reason so idk. It's a very "ID feel" sort of monster.

 

His chainguns fire ricochet bullets or projectiles and has a grenade launcher that shoots ricochet grenade things. This makes him the most fun monster I've used and it always ends up in infights, and usually wins, even against a Cyberdemon. This makes me think he must be really high up in the demon hierarchy if their ever was one. The bullets make be weak on their own but they can actually take a lot of health from you just by the sheer firepower, and whenever this monster comes into a room and does the firing pose, it gives off that attitude of "I'm gonna have your ass for breakfast".

angel-1.gif.4ad0a8df545edeaaaff1409886782932.gif

Overall, I find it weird how underrated he is, I think. I hadn't found him in many places except for the Zdoom community project thing where I pulled him out from. Everyone uses Soul Harvesters and Cybruisers and Cacolich's, and I think this one deserves the same use-status as those others.

 

Also, the main point here is that he fits into vanilla really really well.

 

EDIT: I don't know if he's actually underrated but you know what, if he wasn't I would've seen him a lot sooner so yeah.

Edited by KubaloBlackMT

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I would also love to see more support enemies.

Something like the Carcass from DE and the Brain from Q2 comes to mind.

 

And also I think someone else said this but I would like a more powerful melee enemy. 

 

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I just made a thread for the weapon version of this if anyone is interested.
I think this kind of idea is interesting.
 

 

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4 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Maybe a lesser Arch-Vile (the Vile?) that is more focused on reviving enemies than attacking the player?

 

And maybe a mimic-style enemy that can disguise itself as power-ups?

 

A teleport monster trap on a power-up can do the thing... 

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8 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

How to get into DOSDoom editing? As a port it's always kind of fascinated me. Doom Builder doesn't have a DOSDoom format, as far as I can tell (maybe I'm missing it), and all the cool features for DOSDoom really make we want to make maps for it. Especially since PRBoom+ has DOSDoom compatibility, as does ZDoom, I believe. 

I have no idea if ZDoom has DOSDoom compatibility.

 

I don't think PrBoom+ supports the later versions of DOSDoom that actually add more features like DDF and Radius Trigger and all that, but I'd love to be proven incorrect.

 

It is a shame Ultimate Doom Builder has removed the EDGE formats, but I think what's important to remember is that DOSDoom has DDF, Radius Trigger, and uses Doom format for its maps. But yeah, it'd be nice of UDB had more obscure port settings.

 

I don't like saying 'you can make your own' even if it is true, because results may vary and it's kind of cumbersome to do that.

7 hours ago, Rudolph said:

Maybe a lesser Arch-Vile (the Vile?) that is more focused on reviving enemies than attacking the player?

That would definitely be good. I hate that the vanilla Arch-Vile has both. It feels like too much.

7 hours ago, Plank_Guy_89 said:

I think I disagree with this, I really think I disagree with this.  Doom's roster is great but the problem is that there is a finite amount of excellent maps you can make with the vanilla roster.  With even basic custom enemy work you can help make some interesting encounters that could make a wad standout from the pile of standard wads.

I think the person might have been focusing more on Doom 2 as a game than Doom 2 as an engine you can easily mod.

 

Of course, even then, I still disagree. Doom 2 as a game itself is very flawed, and can be boring at times.

7 hours ago, TelicAx7 said:

I also think for a melee enemy a rabid zombie dog would make sense, like a Belgian Malinois that has military/police styled light armor for a dog, making it more resistant to punches and the chainsaw but fairly easy to take down with the guns. So maybe about the same strength as the lost souls from Doom 64, but with less pain chance from melee attacks. Perhaps it could also already be alerted to the player's presence as soon as the map starts, and they will try to seek the player out and then make their alert bark which could alert any nearby enemies to your presence. After all, they'd have better noses than demons and former humans for seeking out someone who should not be there.

Imagine a player seeing the dog and askin' 'What tha dog doin'?' before getting their flesh torn from limb to limb and catching rabies.

 

I can see how canines would have better noses than the former humans, but demons?

I really don't know the demons' biology. I can imagine it might depend on the specific demon species, but I can also imagine pinkies having a really good sense of smell, since they already remind me of dogs due to how they keep biting me when I try to pet them.

 

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8 minutes ago, Nikku4211 said:

That would definitely be good. I hate that the vanilla Arch-Vile has both. It feels like too much.

I browsed Realm667's beastiary to see if someone had thought of this already.

 

There is the Hellion, which does look like a lesser Arch-Vile, but alas it seems to be little more than a Imp replacement.

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17 minutes ago, Nikku4211 said:

I have no idea if ZDoom has DOSDoom compatibility.

 

I don't think PrBoom+ supports the later versions of DOSDoom that actually add more features like DDF and Radius Trigger and all that, but I'd love to be proven incorrect.

 

It is a shame Ultimate Doom Builder has removed the EDGE formats, but I think what's important to remember is that DOSDoom has DDF, Radius Trigger, and uses Doom format for its maps. But yeah, it'd be nice of UDB had more obscure port settings.

Any DOSDoom maps to test PRBoom+ with? That's kinda why I wanted to make maps for it, there aren't any, as far as I know.

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Like Doomkid mentioned earlier there's definitely a gap between Imps and Revs that needs to be filled, which I think a form of D64's Nightmare Imp could fill pretty well. The gap with Revs and Hell Knights I don't think really warrants filling, but I think Hell Knights could at least use a minor AI upgrade. Because they really are just big Imps...

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57 minutes ago, SynDoom said:

Like Doomkid mentioned earlier there's definitely a gap between Imps and Revs that needs to be filled, which I think a form of D64's Nightmare Imp could fill pretty well. The gap with Revs and Hell Knights I don't think really warrants filling, but I think Hell Knights could at least use a minor AI upgrade. Because they really are just big Imps...

Well, according to Sandy Petersen, they were created solely because he liked the Baron of Hell's design, so a weaker variant was created in order to appear more often. I guess they could be made into melee fighters like their Doom 2016 counterpart.

 

Alternatively, they could be replaced with a more sophisticated monster, like Realm 667's Hell Warrior.

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Yeah I remember Sandy saying that. I just think that Hell Knights are in need of some AI mix-ups, and Barons should be replaced with a more unique version of them. 

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2 hours ago, Dusty_Rhodes said:

Any DOSDoom maps to test PRBoom+ with? That's kinda why I wanted to make maps for it, there aren't any, as far as I know.

I... actually don't know any maps made for DOSDoom itself.

 

Maybe you could try running early EDGE maps from the 1990s in it?

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