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ketmar

k8vavoom: no good thing ever dies!

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also, i want to warn you all that there will be a long hiatus. it doesn't mean that i am abandoned k8vavoom or something, i just want to try one thing i wanted to do for almost 15 years. yes, this is yet another Engine Recreation Project. no, it's not Red Faction. ;-) anyway, i don't know if something will come out of that, and i don't want to make any announces right now. it may take several monthes, but k8vavoom is still my primary project, so don't worry, the show will go on! ;-) just don't expect me to be very active this winter. i may release some maintenance builds, tho.

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7 hours ago, Gunrock said:

Thanks ketmar for all your hard work! Keep it up!

thank you! i hope you enjoy the new build (read: i hope that it works at all ;-).

 

just to tease you a little: i have some ideas of renderer changes, to make rendering of maps with a lot of visible geometry faster. it should make the infamous Frozen Time bridge scene at least 5-8 FPS faster (maybe even more). don't hold your breath yet, it is still in R&D phase, but i hope to implement it sooner or later. i mean, stay with us, people, i have not only new features planned, but also solid plans to make the engine faster! ;-) and i hope that my Secret Project will help with that, because i could test some optimisations on it before bringing them into k8vavoom.

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I've been playing Unloved with this port tonight as I haven't played it since it was new (2010) and it's been two or three years since I last tried this port out already and I'm happy to say it's playing great as well as looking very cool with the new light and shadow system. Extremely atmospheric! Will report issues if any to assist in development.

E: I say just as it breaks LOL. This is suppose to transport you to another map when using it but it doesn't work, you use mirrors and other things occasionally to warp. BTW is there any way to make screenshots cleaner and larger? Also I would use a change map command to just get around this issue for the time being but I don't know what it would be if one is even implemented so I don't lose my stuff.

shot0000.jpg

Edited by Lila Feuer

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Hey Ketmar. just discovered something when I tested the new K8Vavoom with my upcoming mod, 'Project Slipgate: Remastered Edition'. Something odd is happening when using the 'sector_setfade' function along with 'SetFogDensity' in ACS. K8vavoom's rendering of this effect is very subtle or incorrect. However in GZDoom it renders correctly. Dont know if this is just how K8Vavoom works with this effect or not? Also one last thing. When using 'sector set 3D floors' and checking any of the specials in the flag options (use lower texture, use upper texture, etc.) K8Vavoom doesn't show the texture on the 3D floor render. It just shows a blank texture. GZDoom does show the correct applied texture.

 

K8Vavoom:

K8Vavoom.png.68c9bda8f7b84ed410ba15dc91eb2bec.png

 

GZDoom:

GZDoom.png.c6c857d87321172218948ecee0fd4bfd.png

 

Testing.zip

 

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On 10/31/2021 at 7:02 AM, Lila Feuer said:

is there any way to make screenshots cleaner and larger?

changelog quote: "default screenshot format is jpg now; you can change back to png with "screenshot_type png"; and you can control jpeg compression with "jpeg_quality n", where n is [1..100]". ;-) so you can either bump jpeg quality, or switch to png. as for size — they are always in the size of your render area, because that's what it does — saves the current rendered frame to the image file. ;-)

 

On 10/31/2021 at 7:02 AM, Lila Feuer said:

This is suppose to transport you to another map when using it but it doesn't work, you use mirrors and other things occasionally to warp.

if you can give me easy steps to reproduce it, i'll take a look. note that there is "mypos" console command that saves your current map and position into "conlog.log" (please, include everything it write, map hashes too). it would be ideal if i could simply teleport to the required place and test. i understand that it may be impossible with Unloved, tho, because of scripting, but if you'll manage to make it break when it should work so i don't have to play it for a long time to trigger the bug, it would be great.

 

and thank you for playing/testing k8vavoom! ;-)

 

p.s.: sharing the save (as a last resort) could work too. ideally with the unloved pk3 you're using to play, so i could load it without problems.

 

On 10/31/2021 at 7:02 AM, Lila Feuer said:

Also I would use a change map command to just get around this issue for the time being but I don't know what it would be if one is even implemented so I don't lose my stuff.

`TeleportNewMapEx mapname` should do the trick, and keep your inventory (it will take away your keys, though).

 

10 hours ago, Gunrock said:

Dont know if this is just how K8Vavoom works with this effect or not?

the fog may be broken, because not so many maps are using it, and it is mostly untested. i'll take a look, thank you!

 

10 hours ago, Gunrock said:

When using 'sector set 3D floors' and checking any of the specials in the flag options (use lower texture, use upper texture, etc.) K8Vavoom doesn't show the texture on the 3D floor render. It just shows a blank texture. GZDoom does show the correct applied texture.

test map, please? ;-) this looks like a bug too (or just unimplemented feature i need to properly implement).

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@ketmar
 

Log: >mypos
Log: Map Hash (sha): 9163f906fa95f2ef56576c822825c53fc7a2a097f36eec623fc33dc2
Log: Map Hash (md5): 1ed329858ab154c55878da1c11a4f100
Log: sub: 561; sector: 268
Log: pos:(-119.221,452.979,1)  angles:(30.1683,1.232)
Log: +map map01 "+warpto -119 452 1"
Log: lila feuer left the game
Log: unloading and releasing 186 level textures
Debug: new unique id is 1159 (shrinked by 8); don't worry, this is normal garbage collection cycle.
Log: config at "D:/idTech1/k8vavoom/config.cfg" wasn't changed.
Log: TextureManager: maximum 12 textures in bucket, used 3638 out of 4095 buckets
Log: CVAR statistics: 1042 cvars, 251 buckets used, 12 items in longest chain, 4 items average
Debug: new unique id is 997 (shrinked by 162); don't worry, this is normal garbage collection cycle.
Log: shutting down sound loader thread
Log: sound loader thread shut down.

You're in luck because I kept the original save pre-warping to map04 (the problem map to enter) that I needed to finish thus far. Didn't know about that warp command! That's fine because I summoned the keys I had in addition to what weapons I acquired, even down to the exact ammo and armor that I had. It was sure fun re-fighting the same monsters on the way back to a new area and trying to reload all the scripts in the hub level on the way back so everything was open again haha. The Unloved PK3 is un-tampered with, I just loaded Doom 3 sounds and my custom PLAYPAL alongside it.

Here's the save file: https://sprend.com/download?C=84957fa73cfc4352ad2618f65bb6563d

I did actually run into something that did require me to noclip, on MAP04 of all places again, I'll fetch that next time, a switch that should've raised a wall I think did nothing, and it was shortly before exiting the map too. Honestly I'm lucky I've been able to play as much as I have considering how experimental this port is still but I think its support for GZDoom stuff is really exciting!

I'm actually considering trying KDiZD for the first time because I remember old Vavoom actually supported it, but it is an old mod now so there's no telling how well it'll play with k8vavoom. Guess I'll be the guinea pig!

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20 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

I just loaded Doom 3 sounds and my custom PLAYPAL alongside it.

oops. that is stored in save too. sorry, i forgot to mention that no other wads should be loaded. anyway, thank you for "mypos", i'll try to work from there. ;-)

 

20 minutes ago, Lila Feuer said:

I'm actually considering trying KDiZD for the first time because I remember old Vavoom actually supported it

actually it didn't, the mod loaded, but never worked properly. there are still a lot of bugs, tho, because maps themselves are very buggy here and there. yet it should be more-or-less playable.

 

as for Unloved… i finished it on GZDoom back then, and never replayed fully in k8vavoom. i guess i should do a "full longplay" sometime in the future, to find all possible bugs. ;-)

 

thank you for playing, and for reporting bugs! sorry for non-ideal expirience, we are working on it! ;-) (as they love to say when people are reporting bugs ;-)

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I should mention the title screen and outro screens do not work correctly, I kinda figured seeing as the title is Doom II's the outro was probably broke too, when you reach the end of the mod and it fades out I'm warped back to the last map I finished (Lost Childhood).
 

And that's fine I accept that this is constantly being updated but I find this port to be extremely promising and didn't want to just use GZDoom again for the gazillionth time. Surprised I finished the game, not without some hiccups but it didn't diminish my experience that much and it was really nice seeing the lighting system in action!

E: I have a very quick question, I notice there's a lot of distortion on player weapons and especially the STATBAR if enabled, I tried playing around with the UI scaling and resolution and such and I can't seem to make it clean, even at native 1080p, I like my pixellation though so maybe things look better filtered.

E2: Ha, KDiZD doesn't load in k8vavoom, at all, it just locks up.

Edited by Lila Feuer

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4 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

I have a very quick question, I notice there's a lot of distortion on player weapons and especially the STATBAR if enabled

it is mostly due to aspect ratio fixing, and resolutions not cleanly dividing by the original 200. sadly, there's hardly anything i can do with that.

 

4 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

Ha, KDiZD doesn't load in k8vavoom, at all, it just locks up.

it looks like a broke cameras (yet again). cameras are PITA! ;-) thank you, i'll take a look.

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23 hours ago, Lila Feuer said:

Ha, KDiZD doesn't load in k8vavoom, at all, it just locks up.

yep, it was a bug with cameras rendering. thank you, fixed. i will prolly do a maintenance release later (i got some other such small things to fix, and hope to release a build with those minor annoyances removed).

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I've tried using k8vavoom for the first time ever and it seems to be a pretty cool port.

 

My favorite k8vavoom feature so far, is that is only lists savegames relevant for the specific combination of mods and wads that you used when saving... It is VERY confusing that all savegames are in one big pile in GZDoom

Edited by CBM

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@ketmar What follows is probably a really stupid question, but i am going to ask it anyway.

 

So. Things like Arcane Dimensions have utterly amazing lighting, which is achieved through modified versions of good old LIGHT.EXE which was used to lit up Quake. Ofcourse many years have passed, so these modified versions can do a lot more now, multithreaded rendering, bounce lighting, ambient occlusion, and so on.

 

Dumb question; Given K8Vavoom (and Vavoom) are based off Quake and understand the Quake principles (BSP, VIS, etc): Would it be possible to use these tools to bake lights for K8Vavoom maps?

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@CBM thank you! hope you'll find even more k00l features inside. ;-)

 

18 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Dumb question; Given K8Vavoom (and Vavoom) are based off Quake and understand the Quake principles (BSP, VIS, etc): Would it be possible to use these tools to bake lights for K8Vavoom maps?

technically, yes. realistically, no. first, they need properly prepared Quake BSP to work. second, even if you will manage to somehow make them work with Doom BSP, it won't help. because k8vavoom rebuilds BSP for each new map (it always ignores any pwad nodes), and on top of that, it does more surface subdivisions to better fit lightmaps. neither of algorithms are fixed and predictable. and on top of that, all the hard work on precalculating light will go directly to the trash bin with volume shadows/shadowmap renderers anyway, because they aren't using lightmaps at all.

 

so, while all technical problems are solveable, i don't see good enough reasons to invest any time in that.

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1 hour ago, ketmar said:

@CBM thank you! hope you'll find even more k00l features inside. ;-) 

Nice and I'm sure I will :-D

I really like the effect shown in Freaky Panties IV with the moving 3D crate for example!

 

And I am glad I could help in uncovering the bug that caused the playerTID to be 0 each time resurrect is used

 

Does k8vavoom also work as a quake engine,

ie. does it support loading of Quake maps (could we mix and match Doom and Quake with this engine)?

You added support for MD3 (my favorite format for animated models),

does it support OBJ (could be usefull) & MDL (since vanilla Quake uses MDL models) & MD2 (not really needed and is just trash) as well?

And how is the 3D floor performance (since Quake is a 3D game I suspect it is much better than in GZDoom)?

Finally, could a special BSP map format targeting the union of modern Doom and Quake become a thing in k8vavoom, such that we get the 3D level performance of Quake and the gameplay of Doom in a single map format (much like GZDoom has the UDMF map format)?

 

The poor 3D performance and all the tricks needed to save on the use of 3D floors like using portals in conjunction with 3D floors etc really is the biggest hurdle in GZDoom and keeps classic Doom from truly ascending to new heights IMO

 

Now I'm off to play all the stuff mentioned in the first post in this thread! :-D

 

EDIT

 

just played an old vanilla map of mine and the sky looked weird at one place... like a quilt sewn together in a cross... I haven't found a way to take screenshots so I cant show a picture of it but it looks odd... also, windows 10 doesnt seem to be able to minimize the window, atleast not in fullscreen mode

 

also tried my WIP 40k mod and the models seem to load but without textures, odd... however k8vavoom would be a port where I would be very interested in making 3D model packs for once I know what differences it has compared to GZDoom that would prevent textures from loading... nothing in the debug log suggests it should have issues

 

I really like that hitscanners automatically has visual tracers on their shots

Edited by CBM

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1 hour ago, CBM said:

Does k8vavoom also work as a quake engine

no. it was explained in another thread, afaik, why this is totally impossible. it's like trying to combine a truck and a formula bolid: sure, they both have tires, but it doesn't mean that you can make a truck formula bolid. ;-)

 

1 hour ago, CBM said:

does it support OBJ (could be usefull) & MDL

no and no.

 

1 hour ago, CBM said:

MD2

yes.

 

1 hour ago, CBM said:

And how is the 3D floor performance

the same as in any other idTech1 engine.

 

please, undestand that idTech1 is NOT idTech2, and they cannot be mixed. whatever you do, idTech1 will remain idTech1, with all its limitations. there is no magic way to run it in "full 3D", it wouldn't work. k8vavoom is not different from others, it simply does some visual tricks to make it look like it's something more. but it's still good old idTech1 at its core, the same tech that powers all other Doom sourceports.

 

1 hour ago, CBM said:

and the sky looked weird at one place

Vavoom is using "sky sphere" to render vanilla skies, and it's quite obvious if you'll look extremly up or down. it may look… hm… unusual, but i like it, so i kept that sphere effect.

 

1 hour ago, CBM said:

I really like that hitscanners automatically has visual tracers on their shots

those are not simple tracers, those are actual projectiles. by default all standard hitscanners shoot projectiles now, so the tracers you see are actual projectiles flying, no cheating! ;-)

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57 minutes ago, ketmar said:

the same as in any other idTech1 engine.

 

please, undestand that idTech1 is NOT idTech2, and they cannot be mixed. whatever you do, idTech1 will remain idTech1, with all its limitations. there is no magic way to run it in "full 3D", it wouldn't work. k8vavoom is not different from others, it simply does some visual tricks to make it look like it's something more. but it's still good old idTech1 at its core, the same tech that powers all other Doom sourceports.

 

Vavoom is using "sky sphere" to render vanilla skies, and it's quite obvious if you'll look extremly up or down. it may look… hm… unusual, but i like it, so i kept that sphere effect.

 

those are not simple tracers, those are actual projectiles. by default all standard hitscanners shoot projectiles now, so the tracers you see are actual projectiles flying, no cheating! ;-)

ok, well would it be possible to somehow make the engine or a preprocessor do optimizations to maps such that it can figure out the best way to gain the same effect but slightly change how its done... like a map with excessive 3d floors being changed to a structure where it actually uses portals etc to achieve the same effect with less performance overhead?

 

I like that everything uses actual projectiles, but some people seem to think something is lost if hitscanners are no longer hitscanners.. I had an idea to make a gameplay mod like this for GZDoom so that we could finally get rid of hitscanners :-)

 

I guess I could just decide to not use hitscanner mechanics in my maps and mods

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2 hours ago, CBM said:

The poor 3D performance and all the tricks needed to save on the use of 3D floors like using portals in conjunction with 3D floors etc really is the biggest hurdle in GZDoom and keeps classic Doom from truly ascending to new heights IMO

fwiw... I've found that doing 3d stuff with portals tends to kill the experience as far as smooth performance goes, while using actual 3D floors has very little performance impact.  Even on a modern system that is not "a potato" (i7 + 1080 at the time, i9 + 1080 now), the more portals visible, the more sluggish the input feels in GZDoom, and (eventually) the quicker the FPS drops.  I can't say for sure if this is a Linux-specific or nvidia-specific thing, but it's one reason I never use portals for 3d stuff in my maps.  All my 3D stuff is just plain old 3D floors, or the occasional 3D polyobject, and so I never have the performance issue as far as 3d architecture goes.

 

But afaik, K8Vavoom doesn't support portals in the first place :-P

EDIT: I'm sure the big performance killers in my maps are lots of on-screen geometry and far too many lights :-P

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Just now, Remilia Scarlet said:

fwiw... I've found that doing 3d stuff with portals tends to kill the experience as far as smooth performance goes, while using actual 3D floors has very little performance impact.  Even on a modern system that is not "a potato" (i7 + 1080 at the time, i9 + 1080 now), the more portals visible, the more sluggish the input feels in GZDoom, and (eventually) the quicker the FPS drops.  I can't say for sure if this is a Linux-specific or nvidia-specific thing, but it's one reason I never use portals for 3d stuff in my maps.  All my 3D stuff is just plain old 3D floors, or the occasional 3D polyobject, and so I never have the performance issue as far as 3d architecture goes.

 

But afaik, K8Vavoom doesn't support portals in the first place :-P

Ok, well I've made some maps that really tanks FPS due to the use of 3d floors... maps like castle of secrets (a castle made out of 3d floors where needed) and navy (just used 3d floors to make some 'floating ships')

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59 minutes ago, CBM said:

but some people seem to think something is lost if hitscanners are no longer hitscanners

…and that's why we have the option to turn it off. any such gameplay-breaking change has the corresponding option to "undo" it.

 

1 hour ago, CBM said:

like a map with excessive 3d floors being changed to a structure where it actually uses portals etc to achieve the same effect with less performance overhead?

first, portals are ALWAYS slower than 3d floors. and second, k8vavoom doesn't support portals, and this won't change. portals is a misfeature, and i won't going to implement it.

 

43 minutes ago, CBM said:

Ok, well I've made some maps that really tanks FPS due to the use of 3d floors...

and this is usually the clear sign that you're using the wrong engine. not wrong sourceport, but the wrong tech. idTech1 is a bad choice for any kind of complex 3d geometry, it simply wasn't designed for that. there is no magic trick that will suddenly make idTech1-based engine to process complex maps lightning fast. it is simply impossible. not "hard to do", but impossible. GZDoom is one of the fastest idTech1 engines out there (and that includes rendering), so if it doesn't work ok on GZDoom, you can abandon all hope of finding some another sourceport that does it better. if your maps really need that complex geometry, you'd better switch to some real 3D engine, like Quake or Unreal. this is the only practical solution. ask any sourceport dev, and they all will tell you the same. it's not because we all so stubborn, it's because you're asking for impossible things.

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3 minutes ago, ketmar said:

and this is usually the clear sign that you're using the wrong engine. not wrong sourceport, but the wrong tech. idTech1 is a bad choice for any kind of complex 3d geometry, it simply wasn't designed for that. there is no magic trick that will suddenly make idTech1-based engine to process complex maps lightning fast. it is simply impossible. not "hard to do", but impossible. GZDoom is one of the fastest idTech1 engines out there (and that includes rendering), so if it doesn't work ok on GZDoom, you can abandon all hope of finding some another sourceport that does it better. if your maps really need that complex geometry, you'd better switch to some real 3D engine, like Quake or Unreal. this is the only practical solution. ask any sourceport dev, and they all will tell you the same. it's not because we all so stubborn, it's because you're asking for impossible things.

 

hm, that might be true.

If only Doom 3 had the same traction as Doom 1 and 2.

 

I would loved it if there had been the same amount of sourceports, tools and community around Doom 3 modding as there is around Doom 2 modding

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5 minutes ago, CBM said:

I would loved it if there had been the same amount of sourceports, tools and community around Doom 3 modding as there is around Doom 2 modding

i think it doesn't have the same big community for two reasons. first, doing "real 3d maps" is harder. now we have tools like Trenchbroom, but the original Doom3 editor is not that fun to use. and there is always an entry barrier too, because drawing some 2D map seems to be much easier task than crafting full 3D map. of course, for complex map it usually reversed (i.e. create complex 3D geometry is much easier with a real 3D engine), but Doom editing has that great feeling of "easy start".

 

and second, Doom3 is not a good game by itself. don't get me wrong, it's not bad, but it is so far from the previous Doom formula, that fans simply didn't got it. people were going into Doom3 expecting the same frantic action they enjoyed in the previous installments, but got something closer to horror survival expirience. so fans of the first Dooms were disappointed, and horror game fans simply didn't looked at it, because they aren't expecting such gameplay style from something called Doom.

 

and i agree that it is really sad, because the engine is good, and we could get a lot of very cool mods with it. but… alas.

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5 hours ago, ketmar said:

@CBM thank you! hope you'll find even more k00l features inside. ;-)

 

technically, yes. realistically, no. first, they need properly prepared Quake BSP to work. second, even if you will manage to somehow make them work with Doom BSP, it won't help. because k8vavoom rebuilds BSP for each new map (it always ignores any pwad nodes), and on top of that, it does more surface subdivisions to better fit lightmaps. neither of algorithms are fixed and predictable. and on top of that, all the hard work on precalculating light will go directly to the trash bin with volume shadows/shadowmap renderers anyway, because they aren't using lightmaps at all.

 

so, while all technical problems are solveable, i don't see good enough reasons to invest any time in that.

Well multibounce static lighting looks fly ;) there is a lot of tools available and given the recent development of ZDRay, it got me thinking: Why does Vavoom/K8Vavoom not look into this?

 

A side-silly question: How would Vavoom fare? Same answer? ;)

1 hour ago, ketmar said:

 it's not because we all so stubborn, it's because you're asking for impossible things.

Nothing is impossible ;) Its just that to combat the facets that are inherent on Doom's rendering would take a madman to effectively refactor or emulate through an original engine.

 

But who is to say? Stranger Things have happened. Both the show and in Doom.

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18 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Why does Vavoom/K8Vavoom not look into this?

well, it looks Good Enough(tm) for me. ;-) external lightmap builder is yet another gimmick that will be used once or twice, and then forgotten. but to support that i have to write a lot of code to convert external lightmaps to fit internal vavoom subdivided surfaces, or invent The Whole New Format for this, and convince tool authors to support it. the idea is interesting, but the amount of work… well, i don't think it worth it.

 

besides, you cannot use real-time shadows with it.

 

p.s.: btw, k8vavoom already does some ambient occlusion in lightmapped mode, due to ray tracer imperfections. well, technically it's a bug, but sometimes it looks like AO. ;-)

 

18 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

A side-silly question: How would Vavoom fare? Same answer? ;)

ahem… i failed to decipher the question, sorry. i mean, literally, it's beyond my English.

 

18 hours ago, Redneckerz said:

Nothing is impossible

it was explained in some other thread: the only way to do that is to have two different engines, with completely different data structures, rendering, physics, even actor representation, and pretend that it is still the one engine. it will never work right. it may work "good enough" to record short youtube videos in controlled environment, but in the end of the day it won't be a good Doom engine, and it won't be a good Quake engine. Doom is absolutely different from any later "sane" 3D engine. even BSP tree in Doom is inverted: it doesn't store solids, it stores empty spaces instead! and physics, oh, Doom physics… slopes and 3D floors are so fragile because the physics in Doom is 2D. and it doesn't matter which internal data structures one will use: you either have to keep that 2D mess, or it won't be Doom. i'm still trying to replace it with BSP-based coldet (already at 4th iteration), but each time it ends up in uncontrollable mess, because it should work almost exactly the same as the original.

 

there is simply no reason trying to "advance" idTech1 in that way: in the end of the day you will get a half-assed Q-like engine that is kept together with a ton of duct tape, cannot play Doom properly, and still much worser than even Quake1.

 

yet creating Doom-like 2D-ish map editor that can generate Quake maps looks like an interesting idea. ;-)

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would an idtech2 engine be able to load a doom wad and internally convert it to a quake level? or will it not work for the reasons stated above?

 

I mean, an engine build on idtech2 that is focused on quake but has the minimum required amount of idtech1 duct tape to qualify as a 'doom engine'... like a quake engine in disguise

 

conversion of doom map to a quake map:

https://github.com/luser/wad2map

 

the map could be converted in memory on load

 

FrankenDoom?

 

able to load pure vanilla wads maybe but uses bsp as native next gen map format

Edited by CBM

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18 minutes ago, CBM said:

would an idtech2 engine be able to load a doom wad and internally convert it to a quake level?

it will be completely static. all Quake and post-Quake engines are using separate brushes (3d objects) for lifts and doors, but Doom directly modifies map geometry instead. that's one of the reasons why Doom hardware-accelerated rendering is much slower than in Quake: there is nothing given about Doom map, it can change at any time. so most optimisations possible with engines using immutable geometry are out of picture, and idTech1 engine has to feed GPU with data on each frame instead of doing that once on map loading, and then simply tell GPU to draw what it already has in its memory.

 

you can create some heuristics to detect doors and lifts, and to convert them to brushes (that's basically what id did in the nuDoom for E1 easter egg), but it is very fragile, and will break with most modern maps. so you will have the engine that is more-or-less capable of playing vanilla iwads, some other pwads you specifically tought it, and that's all. and those things are already perfectly playable in any existing sourceport anyway. ;-) to take the full advantage of such engine you will have to use Quake editor to create Quake maps… and what is the reason to NOT use Quake in this case? ;-)

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10 minutes ago, ketmar said:

it will be completely static. all Quake and post-Quake engines are using separate brushes (3d objects) for lifts and doors, but Doom directly modifies map geometry instead. that's one of the reasons why Doom hardware-accelerated rendering is much slower than in Quake: there is nothing given about Doom map, it can change at any time. so most optimisations possible with engines using immutable geometry are out of picture, and idTech1 engine has to feed GPU with data on each frame instead of doing that once on map loading, and then simply tell GPU to draw what it already has in its memory.

 

you can create some heuristics to detect doors and lifts, and to convert them to brushes (that's basically what id did in the nuDoom for E1 easter egg), but it is very fragile, and will break with most modern maps. so you will have the engine that is more-or-less capable of playing vanilla iwads, some other pwads you specifically tought it, and that's all. and those things are already perfectly playable in any existing sourceport anyway. ;-) to take the full advantage of such engine you will have to use Quake editor to create Quake maps… and what is the reason to NOT use Quake in this case? ;-)

the idea would be to give quake some doom makeup so it could be sold to the doom crowd as a next gen option, by making it able to run pure vanilla doom wads it would technically classify as a doom engine while initially needing a quake editor to create next gen maps.... until ultimate doom builder or a fork of it decided to support the bsp map format.. no need for it to support UDMF or BOOM stuff

 

and to have a platform to further improve idtech2 as idtech1 has with gzdoom and k8vavoom :-)

 

I cant believe ultimate doom builder isnt shipping with k8vavoom support already btw

Edited by CBM

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46 minutes ago, CBM said:

I cant believe ultimate doom builder isnt shipping with k8vavoom support already btw

there is nothing really special there, normal GZDoom config should work most of the time. the only major missing part is 3d polyobjects, but they are relatively new, and the spec is not even finalized yet (it should be stable, but i didn't declared it "final" for now).

 

ah, and you also have to check dynamic lighting in k8vavoom itself, because it's light formulas are slightly different from GZDoom, so UDB 3d preview with dynlights will not exactly match what you will see in k8vavoom. it is roughly the same, but not exact.

 

still, i don't think that there is any urgent need to add separate k8vavoom support to UDB. i'm planning to submit configs to SLADE (and maybe UDB) later, tho. the only problem is that UDB is simply doesn't work on my box. ;-)

 

p.s.: as for improved idTech2 — DarkPlaces is basically "GZDoom of Quake1 engines", i believe. it has a lot of features, including realtime lighting and shadows with shadowmaps (written by no other than Lee Salzman of Tesseract fame!).

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