What's the value of anything online?

This topic has been lingering in my mind for some time, so I finally wanted to share it with people. 

 

We live in a time where practically all of our entertainment is digitized. Wether its music, art, games, movies/docus/series or even books. 

 

Most of you probably go to Spotify for music. If you want to watch the new tv, you probably go to YouTube and Netflix.  Everything is found and stored online nowadays. 

 

Most games are bought digitally nowadays aswell, more then ever before as witnessed by the amount of lesser and lesser physical copies in retail stores. Becoming even more apparent with the fact that cd rom has been becoming increasingly obsolete during the past few years, if it hasn't already. 

 

I'm not here for lamenting about nostalgia for the past because that's not what this is about. 

 

I want to best explain this with a casus:

 

Billy has worked for days and nights pouring his heart and soul into his latest artwork. 

He's looking forward to sharing it with people on the internet. Those people have been pretty supportive of Billy's work in the past, giving him kind comments. 

 

Its the only way Billy feels a sense of connection with people nowadays, especially since the lockdown has severely limited human contact. This connection gives him a sence of meaning and purpose. 

 

Billy has alot of beautiful artwork posted online, in fact Billy is a multitalented artist sharing and creating music, poetry and digital art. 

 

One day an announcement from the government is made that the internet is no longer sustainable and will be shut down. 

This also means that everything that Billy has ever made will be lost aswell. 

 

So what then was the meaning of all this when in the end all of this effort is lost anyway and ceases to exist like it never happened? 

 

The day has come that the internet is shut down and Billy has stored everything on hdd drives and his phone to atleast remember his efforts and his legacy in some way. 

 

But then it happens, electricity is no longer viable either. Billy slowly sees his phone's battery run out. 

 

The following thoughts run through his mind: "I cannot share my work anymore because there is no internet, I can't be creative or produce either because there is no electricity anymore. What was then the value of all this that I did?" 

 

What was the value of it all when its creation and existence were dependent on those things? Electricity and internet. 

 

Both of wich are beyond your control. 

 

Would it have been different if there was a real physical means to connect it with people? 

 

Would he have been able to save and retain a part of his soul that is now forever lost? 

 

Billy thinks about his childhood when he got a present from his father. It was a cassette tape. 

 

"One day it will probably be of no use when you grow up but atleast you know that it exists, that its real, and you will remember me by it when you hold it in your hands, that's my lasting connection to you.. and no amount of likes on the internet can replace that"

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by OniriA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Work_of_Art_in_the_Age_of_Mechanical_Reproduction

 

Worth a read of the full text if the wiki catches your interest

The only viable threat I feel regarding The New Digital Age is that we're hurtling towards a future where Rentism will become the norm for practically everything: you name it, you're paying a monthly/annual subscription fee and can never pay for something just once and be done with it. The very concept of ownership and autonomy to do whatever you wish with the things you've purchased whenever you want feels like it's becoming obsolete. Game publishers forcefully removing old games from digital stores that can no longer be easily acquired is a frightening omen of things to come as more and more of the things we enjoy are locked behind perpetual paywalls.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Biodegradable

Fundamentally art is a commodity, regardless of if we want to think of it that way it's true.  It isn't hard to gain access to most art legitimately anymore and therefor the value of it has fell.

 

1 minute ago, Major Arlene said:

side note if this means NFTs die then please by all means 

NFTs are a great example of this. The perceived value of exclusivity drives people to spend money on mediocre monkey JPGs.  Digital art allows infinite supply otherwise.

7 minutes ago, Astronomical said:

Fundamentally art is a commodity,

 

Only if we treat it as such: a fair few artists would tell you that their art is primarily a means of self-expression and a conduit for creative energies and to treat such things as merely items to be bought or sold is exactly the mindset that has led to the proliferation of things like NFTs.

I think Maribo basically went over some of this in great enough detail, so I'll just nitpick for a moment here and point out that the internet's sustainability is not something that a government is necessarily involved with, or has any say over... (unless you live in North Korea, I guess)

 

One not-so-nitpicky thing that you begin to establish is lack of direct control over a supposed asset, which, yes, might happen if everything somebody has ever made were backed up only online, so it's a relatable thought to entertain, in my opinion anyway, but Billy's talents and the validation he gets out of creating art in some form is are independent assetts, so the validation he seems to require can be had with or without the internet... Not to mention that the pandemic as it is right now will sooner or later change shape, either because the anti-vaxxers go the way of the dodo, or because someone manages to impart a sense of responsibility in them...

 

Furthermore, there's too much in the way of false dichotomies going on here, because you're attempting to rule out possibilities that would no doubt exist IRL...

Time spent enjoying yourself is never time wasted. If it was a positive experience then all that comes after is a bonus

Concur completely with @Maribo. Nailed it. In the end nothing lasts. Even memories fade and are eventually lost to time. Enjoy creation for it's own sake during the time you were creating, and the awe you felt when you beheld a great work of art.

 

A year or so ago my lady and i stopped at this random gallery in an old garage in a place down south. Curiosity alone drove us. Well it was the primary gallery for a local landscape artist and to call his work beyond stunning would be a gross understatement. I basically went full non verbal. I felt like I could have stepped into the paintings they were so realistic. Obviously leagues out of my price range but that moment of utter jaw dropping awe will stay with me for years to come. it's what i call the value of a moment. Nothing can last forever so it's important to treasure such moments for as long as you can and not ponder on the ultimate futility of it all. Because it's not futile. That moment mattered at the time and that's all it needed to do.

 

I do kind of get what you are saying though about the kind of culture of impermanence that the digital age is creating. I like the convenience of digital. Part of me does miss physical media a lot, but I do not miss the amount of space it takes up. Also digital is arguably better for the environment with less material going to potential waste. But there is still something to be said for creating 

 

In 1000 or 2000 years time what will remain of our civilisation for our descendants to uncover and ruminate upon? Some things, but a lot will also be lost. But such is the way of things. The passage of time cares nothing for us and what we create. But it ultimately still comes down to what I said above, in that the true value of a thing lies in the one moment of it's creation and/or enjoyment.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Murdoch

Always marvelled at the people doing sand sculptures on the beach growing up. Two dogs lying down, a mermaid with every scale etched in. All trace of those careful happy hours deformed or gone as soon as next morning. Those people know.

 

I do think digitalisation and its frictionless infinite abundance has changed the perception and attitude towards experiencing art or entertainment however. Song hasn't grabbed you in 30 seconds? Skip it! Same with TV etc. You get used to not having to work your attention but some friction and boredom can be useful in life. There are things I dearly love that I only ever got into because I had fewer options at the time.

10 hours ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

Time spent enjoying yourself is never time wasted. If it was a positive experience then all that comes after is a bonus

Indeed, my friend. But why not spend that time with friends and family as well, especially with Thanksgiving just around the corner?

2 minutes ago, HavoX said:

especially with Thanksgiving just around the corner?

slight derail, not everyone celebrates Thanksgiving, it's mostly an American holiday.

That's true.

Some nice replies by people here, I can appreciate the interest.

 

20 hours ago, Maribo said:

This isn't really an existential problem unique to the internet, art and man-made anything is impermanent. Were you to leave paintings, sculptures, books, whatever else out in the elements, they would erode as well.

 

Here's a choice, would you rather see your work be eroded beautifully while vines start covering you gracefully in their embrace or.., would you take solace in the fact that you've left all of your life's efforts in a digital man-made space which can cease to exist altogether at the press of a button or pull of a plug?

 

20 hours ago, Maribo said:

The value is in whatever the creator got from making it, and in what the people who experienced it got out of it. Just because something is gone doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

 

For something to matter it has to exist and keep existing in some way, shape or form in the first place. It speaks for itself that an artist gets value from the thing he creates in the moment of creation, but I'm talking about the long term preservation of it, and the lasting value resulting from that.

 

20 hours ago, Maribo said:

This post kind of implies that people don't make physical versions of digital things they enjoy as well, which is kind of incorrect. I know people who get posters/printouts of digital pieces, make their own cassette tapes, all kinds of stuff to translate the feeling of "file on my hard drive" to "thing I can hold in my hands".

 

I'm well aware of this and must say I always appreciate those endeavors. I've surrounded myself with the people who

do this for many years in fact.

 

I purposefully left this out in Billy's example to give a possible scenario of what would happen if digital was the only sole focus. It's a horror scenario for any artist or creative isn't it? Perhaps Billy never considered doing this or simply didn't have the means to do so, which he now regrets after holding his fathers cassette.

 

I didn't write this story for entertainment's sake but because I foresee that such a thing could very well happen in the future.

 

20 hours ago, Maribo said:

If the artist loses their muse and canvas, they either quit or find another muse + canvas, you know?

 

If an artist puts his life and soul into his work then quitting is almost akin to killing yourself or a great part within yourself.

So that option kinda goes into the dustbin. 

 

In the other option, let's say you've only worked with digital art all your life and that's all you know and are good at, would you then just pick up the paint brush the next day and be like "ah well, too bad the internet has stopped existing and all my life's work just went through the toilet, I'll just start making a happy little tree here now if you don't mind." 

 

20 hours ago, Maribo said:

Electricity and the internet make things more accessible, but they don't really change the inherent value of the art. You make the value, whether your work is digital or physical or both.

 

Electricity and the internet make almost everything possible afaik, they don't make things "just more convenient and accessible" unless you're comfortable living a medieval life. I'm assuming you're an artist yourself so what would you do in your case without those things? 

Considering you're sitting in a pitch black room, without light and computer power? 

 

I agree with the rest.

 

19 hours ago, Bridgeburner56 said:

Time spent enjoying yourself is never time wasted. If it was a positive experience then all that comes after is a bonus

 

I can see where you're coming from with that but don't you wish your art to mean something in the physical world aswell instead of just in the digital space?  

Don't you feel that something you create dearly should have a higher purpose beside that?

 

15 hours ago, Murdoch said:

In 1000 or 2000 years time what will remain of our civilisation for our descendants to uncover and ruminate upon? Some things, but a lot will also be lost. But such is the way of things. The passage of time cares nothing for us and what we create. But it ultimately still comes down to what I said above, in that the true value of a thing lies in the one moment of it's creation and/or enjoyment.

 

Instead of going to the future let's go 2000 years in the past.

The artists who left their magnificent works (which we are still uncovering today) might have eroded through the passage of time, but we can't fail to recognize and appreciate the ingeniousness of their designs and beauty. 

 

And they will keep doing so for generations to come. That is their everlasting legacy.

 

They shine just like the Moon in the night sky. The Moon which countless human eyes throughout the history of man have gazed upon in wonder and curiosity. 

 

12 hours ago, holaareola said:

Always marvelled at the people doing sand sculptures on the beach growing up. Two dogs lying down, a mermaid with every scale etched in. All trace of those careful happy hours deformed or gone as soon as next morning. Those people know.

 

Here's one I came across a few years ago near our place :)

 

29 minutes ago, OniriA said:

I can see where you're coming from with that but don't you wish your art to mean something in the physical world aswell instead of just in the digital space?  

Don't you feel that something you create dearly should have a higher purpose beside that?

I actually don't. I can honestly say it's never crossed my mind until this moment. Why would whether there is a physical manifestation of my work matter to me? Never mind that digital art forms are likely to last far longer than any physical representation I can create will.
And what is a higher purpose than finding joy in what you do? Legacies are overrated.

Physical art ages and can be permanently destroyed with absolutely no way of recovering the original. Countless statue and temple that people spent years making are gone forever due to neglect / wars. Same with paintings etc. Digital if anything is easier to backup as you can always keep multiple copies on multiple devices.

I just hope a cataclysm doesn't destroy
all these nice sculptures and oil paintings
I have been working on for the last 20 years
that are safely stored away in my home.

That would suck.

Billy traveled abroad for a few weeks, during which time a massive earthquake struck his hometown. When he returned nothing was left of his home and everything inside was reduced to an unrecognizable pile of rubble. 

 

Like everyone else has said, physical art you physically created with your physical hands could also be obliterated the same way digital creations can be (but more so since it's much harder to create carbon copy back ups of sculptures and paintings). 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Hellbent

On 11/25/2021 at 1:05 AM, Bridgeburner56 said:

I actually don't. I can honestly say it's never crossed my mind until this moment. Why would whether there is a physical manifestation of my work matter to me? Never mind that digital art forms are likely to last far longer than any physical representation I can create will.
And what is a higher purpose than finding joy in what you do? Legacies are overrated.

Helping others, flourishing in a connected way, dedicating yourself to something bigger than yourself. But I get you, we're most of us hyper-individualists living under America-inflected capitalism. I live my life closer to your conception than mine.

 

Anyway, to be a total pedant about the tape story. I don't see a difference between a tape and a USB stick. The tape is more romantic but on both data is encoded at some molecular level you can't ogle, and you'll need some leccy and equipment to use either. 

 

OT a bit. For me, the thing that I dislike most about digital art is that redo-world and its tainted boon of tweaking and tweaking and tweaking massively changes the approach and bleeds into its final character (autotune in pop, massively overproduced rock music, too-perfect digital paintings). As well as that, more time gawping into a screen like absolutely everyone else is not a very romantic view of the artist as well as not a very inspiring environment (check out Francis Bacon's studio. You can see some of it in his paintings). 

 

On the other hand, it lowers the bar significantly, which is maybe a good thing on balance. Making shit is a great way to spend some time.

24 minutes ago, holaareola said:

On the other hand, it lowers the bar significantly, which is maybe a good thing on balance.

the procgen monkeys say hi.

44 minutes ago, Major Arlene said:

the procgen monkeys say hi.

Collateral damage to us all maybe. But imagine if every composer had to be able to play an instrument or if every graphic artist had to be able to paint well, or if every filmmaker had to pay for the film of all the wrong takes. I dunno, I go back and forth. The elitist side of me says we're under a tidal wave of cultural mediocrity enabled by cheap access, clever tools, and undo/redo. The other side of me says this is fucking amazing, it's punk all over again, fuck the barriers and gatekeepers -- give 'em a computer and anyone can do anything.

 

Procgen though. I've always found it fascinating in games where the computer can create a whole world from a single number, kind of magical. So it's cool to me, as long as it's doing gameworlds and not spam and extremist social media posts...

1 hour ago, holaareola said:

The elitist side of me says we're under a tidal wave of cultural mediocrity enabled by cheap access, clever tools, and undo/redo. The other side of me says this is fucking amazing, it's punk all over again, fuck the barriers and gatekeepers -- give 'em a computer and anyone can do anything.

 

Personally, I'm in the latter. Being able to watch the gatekeepers of creativity-film studios, television networks, publishing houses and record labels-disintegrate as the internet gives EVERYONE the opportunity to grant themselves fulfillment in their art, to have their voice heard and develop careers that would otherwise be denied by a bunch of arseholes in ill-fitting suits who decide who gets in and who doesn't. The internet and the availability of technology has become the great equaliser and it's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, all things considered (almost no things considered, haha -- there are far too many for my brain), I think I lean with you on this one. 

 

If only we could have the internet and digitalisation without its horrible political damage and dopamine-tuned entertainment pull.

"everyone" having access to the tools doesn't mean 99% can uses any of them remotely well nor have the foundation/will to peruse art to higher levels.

8 hours ago, holaareola said:

Helping others, flourishing in a connected way, dedicating yourself to something bigger than yourself

None of these things require art to be a physical medium. In fact I'd say this is far easier digitally. I wouldn't be working in a team of 20+, making tutorials, helping other game devs, meeting new people etc, if it weren't for my digital creations. 

 

4 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

 

Personally, I'm in the latter. Being able to watch the gatekeepers of creativity-film studios, television networks, publishing houses and record labels-disintegrate as the internet gives EVERYONE the opportunity to grant themselves fulfillment in their art, to have their voice heard and develop careers that would otherwise be denied by a bunch of arseholes in ill-fitting suits who decide who gets in and who doesn't. The internet and the availability of technology has become the great equaliser and it's a beautiful thing.

1000% agree. Ease of access to creative tools and distribution is only a positive thing. 

On 11/24/2021 at 6:29 PM, OniriA said:

Here's a choice, would you rather see your work be eroded beautifully while vines start covering you gracefully in their embrace or.., would you take solace in the fact that you've left all of your life's efforts in a digital man-made space which can cease to exist altogether at the press of a button or pull of a plug?

It doesn't matter to me, but the former part of this statement is wrapped up in accompanying glamorization of nature's reclamation of physical space. Nature reclaiming human space is awesome, but whether it's my work or not, I couldn't care. A vine wrapped around a statue and a vine wrapped around a server rack are equally pretty.

 

On 11/24/2021 at 6:29 PM, OniriA said:

For something to matter it has to exist and keep existing in some way, shape or form in the first place. It speaks for itself that an artist gets value from the thing he creates in the moment of creation, but I'm talking about the long term preservation of it, and the lasting value resulting from that.

We talk about the ramifications of things that no longer exist all the time, I believe that constitutes "mattering". As for the 2nd part of this, digitization of works is long term, the propagation through the internet and being stored on countless servers and individual drives is a safer bet for preservation, provided you don't have the money for some kind of special physical chamber where you store every physical item you own away from the elements.

 

Don't really have any interest in picking the rest of this post apart because multi-quoting a single post is really annoying with this forum software, but also because it's too deeply rooted in the irrational fear of digital space extinction. This whole conversation is predicated on the idea that fulfillment is only at its peak when it's a physical object, which I can't get down with. But as for the work that I personally do: I write poetry and other stuff + I make digital collages. Should the internet suddenly cease to exist, I would still write on physical paper, and I would probably take up constructing physical collages with tape/glue/whatever have you.

 

6 hours ago, Biodegradable said:

Personally, I'm in the latter. Being able to watch the gatekeepers of creativity-film studios, television networks, publishing houses and record labels-disintegrate as the internet gives EVERYONE the opportunity to grant themselves fulfillment in their art, to have their voice heard and develop careers that would otherwise be denied by a bunch of arseholes in ill-fitting suits who decide who gets in and who doesn't. The internet and the availability of technology has become the great equaliser and it's a beautiful thing.

This is the enlightened take, the tools belong to the people, and they should for everything.

i cant remenber any exemples at this moment but one thing i hear somewhat often is a small project from 1-5 devs being either cancelled or massively delayed because one of the devs had their laptop stolen

 

these stories usually come from places like kickstarter since most people there is still learning their way around development of a big project but that goes to show how fragile stuff like this is

 

hell ive lost save files from games that i had for years and it really wasnt fun even though its not really much to worry about

 

truth is: we can never really predict when something is going to happen. one day you are all happy painting on a canvas then you go to work only to notice that your house is on fire and all the time you put on your painting is gone forever.