Judgment: Retrial - 34 Map MBF21 Megawad (RC3 - 1/31/2024)

Caleb13 · November 19, 2021

@Rayziik So... do you still plan to release a version without custom monsters?

FEDEX · November 19, 2021

3 hours ago, Caleb13 said:

@Rayziik So... do you still plan to release a version without custom monsters?

That would be great.. a standard version and another with custom monsters.

Rayziik · November 20, 2021

On 11/19/2021 at 4:54 AM, HackNeyed said:

Congratulations on the release! This is a really cool project! I look forward to playing the rest when I have some more free time. Thank you for all of your hard work and extra kudos for the cut content as well!

P.S. Thanks for the credit. I'm glad I could help. :)

Thanks a ton for your help :)

On 11/19/2021 at 2:55 PM, Caleb13 said:

@Rayziik So... do you still plan to release a version without custom monsters?

On 11/19/2021 at 6:13 PM, FEDEX said:

That would be great.. a standard version and another with custom monsters.

This probably won't happen. I have other projects I'd rather spend time on now.

-

There's some changes made to the current version based on feedback.

Check OP for the latest version.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Rayziik : Not final, still has bugs. Fuck.

Eduapy · November 20, 2021

Congrats in this work., man, i remember watching your speedruns on YouTube

Bryan T · November 20, 2021

I just played the first two episodes. I like it quite a bit. It's not confusing, looks good, and has interesting fights.

I don't like the dehacked stuff or the compatibility settings.

Rayziik · November 21, 2021

On 11/19/2021 at 8:09 PM, Eduapy said:

Congrats in this work., man, i remember watching your speedruns on YouTube

Thanks. Hope you enjoyed playing (assuming you have)!

On 11/19/2021 at 9:57 PM, Bryan T said:

I just played the first two episodes. I like it quite a bit. It's not confusing, looks good, and has interesting fights.

I don't like the dehacked stuff or the compatibility settings.

I will eventually release a version without the dehacked features. But it will take awhile.

-

In other news, there's still more bugs. So I'm going to end up postponing the final release until some more testing happens. For now, consider the current release a rolling update, and I will continue updating the download link until further notice.

Current release is dated 11/19/2021.

Sorry for the complication!

Catoptromancy · November 22, 2021

MAP06-MAP08 : Done using 12/04/2021 release.

Skill Balancing:

Spoiler

MAP01: Perfect

MAP02: Skill 3

Was slightly tight on ammo near end. I had to run into exit room to gather ammo to kill everything.

MAP03: Perfect

MAP04: Skill 2

The starting area was quite empty. I think was a single zombie man. A single lost soul, maybe two might add that sense of franticness other skills have while being quite easy still.

MAP05: Skill 3

Runs out of ammo in -skill 3. Wadspy monster HP/Weapon damage ratio is higher in skill 3. Skill 4 has 49 more rockets and 160 more cells, but only 800 more monster HP. Skill 3 is easier, just not enough ammo to kill everything. Only 2-3 monsters left as well as the archvile at exit. Maybe more ammo near exit will help kill everything.

Using berserk fist was not required in skill 4, never punched anything. Skill 3 player needs to preplan or use fist to save ammo, as last monster is a completely open and trapped archvile. Replayed skill 3 again knowing I need to conserve ammo and only had 6 rockets and 100 bullets leftover, without using fist.

MAP06: Skill 2

Slightly low on ammo after the 2 cyber fight. Only had shells and bullets on exit even with lots of infighting.

MAP07: Perfect

MAP08: Perfect

Other Reports:

Spoiler

Many maps: Console errors

Spoiler

Affects MAP03, MAP07, MAP10, MAP14, MAP23, MAP25, and MAP31.

MAP07: Green panel alignment

Spoiler

I have noticed none of the green panels are aligned. Mostly looks ok but in some spots the texture clusters up with geometry. One or two extra vertexes on a line can resize many textures to fit anything.

This is style is more minimal and maybe fits map better. The green panel framing is offset halfway so that no texture frames touch the pillars.

This style looks clean with the framing of the texture on the pillars. but shorter walls would make the textured framing look clustered when using extra vertexes. Since this map has a lot of shorter sections maybe mix styles or just use first one.

MAP08: Maybe color changing linedef switch.

Spoiler

The switch is already sitting on metal, would probably work fine to make it change flats.

MAP08: Odd shadows on ceiling

Spoiler

Looks like that rectangle on ceiling is full bright.

MAP08: Vanilla lighting transfer.

Spoiler

Different ports and renderers can show these ceilings differently. Boom linedef flag 213 in a control sector does the same thing more consistently.

Added Demos.

Spoiler

Not very good or fast demos. Some demos will be labelled TAS. I use basic save and load TAS tools so I can check out parts of the map without making demo too long, also useful if a map kills me too much. The first run I make of the map with be labelled as FDA using skill 4. I will just dump all my demos to this directory.

https://www.geocities.ws/catodemos/playtesting/Judgment/demos/

Getting started:

Spoiler

Good formatting of reports are important. Somewhere in the reporting post the simple title "Playtesting," along with the range of finished maps and a spoiler. Anyone interested can quickly glance at the reporting post and see if more progress was made and new reports posted without having to look at a bunch of info. Each issue will have map number, and quick description in bold. If needed a long, thorough description and/or screenshots with "idmypos" enabled. Maps playtested will be marked as done or as a range.

I play to 100/100/100 stats in skills 2-4, starting with skill 4. I start with a casual skill 4, as it is my introduction to map. Once I am in a position to exit and map has been casually played and explored, I go back looking for 100% stats using various cheats like fly, noclip, iddt, and freelook while checking out textures and other visuals in map. Once 100% stats is confirmed and map checked out, start a -nomonsters game and plan a route to exit with 100% secrets. I also route weapons and useful powerups into -nomonsters runs to help replicate route for the monster runs. After all secrets can efficiently be found and map exited, I play -skill 4 again normally with monsters using secrets and specific route. Playing a map a second time in -skill 4 with a defined route really helps gauge skill balance between skills. I then play skill 3 and then 2 using that same route. 100% stats helps find things as I am forced to wander around looking for secrets and items. Ensuring that 100% is possible can find impossible to reach items, hard or impossible to trigger secrets, or monsters in unkillable positions. Making demos of everything will take way too long, but they might be made to show something off in detail.

Brute forcing stuff to see what can break is also fun. I test ledges and impassible looking barriers, I try to jump/SR-50 off things at various angles to see if I can softlock or find sequence breaks. Lifts and platforms will get bonked to see if multi-sector lifts can softlock or have missing textures that become visible. Archvile jumps will be attempted.

Gamepad/touchscreen support. While skill balance requires a target audience, there are also physical restrictions that create a target audience. Mostly meaning SR-40/SR-50, and even z-height jumping might need to be accounted for eventually. Mappers can very much ignore this and fine tune later. Players using gamepads and touch screens will find advanced movement harder or impossible. I find this is perfectly fine, just a harder to use control system. But if a map requires sr-40/sr-50 to jump to a required ledge, then mobile/console players might just be softlocked. Another note, I do like advanced movement/speedrunning shortcuts, while slower players can eventually get to the area.

I also look for consistency. Some designs are perfectly fine, but sometimes I notice they do not match similar designs elsewhere. I try to determine a reason for difference and may report differences.

I will get super detailed, can ignore anything I post if I go overboard, many things I post may not be worth fixing. I am basically posting about everything I find that seems unintentional and can actually be modified.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Catoptromancy

Rayziik · December 5, 2021

Been going at it with regards to bugfixing and updating, and now that I've made through all the maps again, here's an update.

Check OP for the latest version! (12/27/2021)

The biggest notable change is for maps that rely on killing the bosses in order to continue; I've implemented ways to get through without having to do so, mainly in the interest of supporting Pacifist speedrunning. Check the updated changelog for the details on how to do it!

-

Enjoy, and thanks for playing!

Edited December 27, 2021 by Rayziik : No longer up to date

Rayziik · December 27, 2021

Yes, you read that title right, this is the final update. Below is a link to the final version, the same file that has been shipped off to the idgames archive. (and hopefully doesn't get rejected this time around...)

Judgment - Final Release (12/27/2021) • Mirror

^{CRC32: CBBB5B87; Last Modified date/timestamp is 12/27/2021, 06:12 EST}

Major points of interest in this version:

Difficulty balancing across almost every map, namely for skill 2 and skill 3
Some monster balance changes, bugfixes, and a couple major changes to the big boss finale on MAP30
For GZDoom, added some GLDefs for all the new things that would need them
A whole new secret map, MAP34, accessed from a new secret exit on MAP24 (maybe stay away if you really didn't like the secret boss in MAP31...)
And arguably the most important: a fix for a dehacked problem that would effectively freeze up the game when a certain combination of events occurred ^{(big thanks to Kraflab for diagnosing this one!)}

-

Phew, I think that's it. Changelog has been updated in the OP for everything that's been changed since the last update on the 4th.

I guess now I move on from this project, looking back I am very proud of what I accomplished here. Even if only one person had found this enjoyable, that would have been enough for me, but to see so many people enjoying what I did here only motivates me further.

Thanks for playing.

^{"And this won't be the last of it. Heed my words, O', Pilgrim. This won't be the last of it."}

Edited December 27, 2021 by Rayziik

Rayziik · January 1, 2022

One last update: The project is now on /idgames!

https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/levels/doom2/Ports/megawads/judgment

I'll also be uploading those reject maps to the archive as well soon, mostly just for archiving purposes.

Pixel Fiend · January 1, 2022

Congratulations on the release. I'm in love with Judgment the same way I'm in love with Sunlust or Abandon. Pure treasure.

Meowgi · January 1, 2022

This is certified VERY good shit brother

princetontiger · January 1, 2022

Holy sh!t. Cacoward material right here.

Dimon12321 · January 6, 2022

Why Episode 3 starts from Map 12 instead of Map 11 where the player begins from a pistol start?

Rayziik · January 7, 2022

3 hours ago, Dimon12321 said:

Why Episode 3 starts from Map 12 instead of Map 11 where the player begins from a pistol start?

The intent is for a player to finish Episode 2 with a BFG from MAP11 when playing continuous. The text screen after MAP11 kind of hints at this as the intended progression, otherwise MAP12-15 don't really fit together with MAP11 because they're so drastically different in theme.

Dimon12321 · January 12, 2022

Full walkthrough on Ultra-Violence with 100% kills and secrets. It doesn't feature death moments or pointless running around*

Spoiler

* - except for the rare cases when at the end of a map I realized I had missed a secret or some weird monster closet activation and ran across the whole map to finally get 100% stats

Videos (no commentaries, 2160p 60fps):

Spoiler

Part 1 (Maps 1-6): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpTYmBcgkB8

Part 2 (Maps 7-10, 33): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9fOlcr-NXk

Part 3 (Maps 11-15): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMrnroZkQ3k

Part 4 (Maps 31 and 32): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uXfttzqzB4 (Seriously? You will watch it?)

Part 5 (Maps 16-20): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdPYNs6pdPI

Part 6 (Maps 21-25, 34): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkWTeCN7bD4

Part 7 (Maps 26-30): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncYLgQRuBIo

LMP demos (can be watched in DSDA-Doom):

judgment_walkthrough_demos.zip

Overall score: 8/10.

The mod is fascinating and the usage of MBF21 features really improve its quality! Custom monsters was the key factor why I kept playing it till the end. Too bad MBF21 doesn't feature any extra weapons because, while playing it through, the tempo doesn't raise up when it should do which results in using non-appropriate weapons because the needed ones are out of ammo. Sometimes I was willing to have Ray Mohawk 2 weapons =)

Didn't see much MBF stuff. IIRC, only Map 31 features friction effects, like mud slowing you down, but after all, I don't think it should bring much impact on the gameplay.

In my opinion, the root cause is that monsters try to avoid infighting by attacking only when there's nothing in the line of attack, which is inherited from the original MBF. Map 32 was the only spot where I really desired to stop playing because there were not enough ammo to make it through and I had to go collect various leftovers.

Helper dogs was a nice touch, but sometimes the game requires a careful play and the dog, making laps around you, can easily catch a rocket and you just blow yourself up. Some custom marine with a shotgun/SSG and with no shot preparation delay would fit in there better.

Coop monsters and items is a good bonus. Not all map makers do that.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Dimon12321

NightFright · April 12, 2022

Hmmm... playing this in Woof and taking the secret exit in MAP08 still just leads to MAP09 instead of MAP33. UMAPINFO seems ok, so I have no clue what happened...

*EDIT*

Looks like a bug in recent Woof dev builds. Fixed now.

Edited April 12, 2022 by NightFright

Moravectomascb · May 9, 2022

When I saw map 32, is this map stolen from SF201X or its in this wad with permission of the author? If am I right I saw similar map in one of SF201X. :D I played sometimes SF and another maps with MOP in Doomseeker thats why I think of this. Has it any changes from original? :D

I can say, that wad look great. I like it. :D

baja blast rd. · May 9, 2022

54 minutes ago, Moravectomascb said:

When I saw map 32, is this map stolen from SF201X or its in this wad with permission of the author?

Rayzik got permission from the author of that map, Rayzik.

GarrettChan · May 9, 2022

10 hours ago, baja blast rd. said:

Rayzik got permission from the author of that map, Rayzik.

No, obviously, it's Rayziik got permission from the author of that map, Rayzik. The real Rayzik should not be tainted.

Spoiler

BTW I actually didn't know this, neat info.

NightFright · May 9, 2022

Wait, so he stole from himself? Absolutely outrageous.

Noise · May 4, 2023

Map 23. A "ghost" ball fall in a monster teleport area and it reached an infinite loop

Rayziik · December 10, 2023

NOTE: THIS IS NOT A SEQUEL

Hello there, it's been awhile.

Judgment: Retrial is an update to Judgment, focusing on fixing bugs and during the process making changes to gameplay, mechanics, monsters, and even a good few of the maps themselves. Most of the original is still the same, but all the known issues that unfortunately made it through the testing I did before /idgames have been fixed, and the pain points expressed by all the wonderful people I have been able to watch play and/or speedrun the wad have been alleviated (hopefully!).

A teaser of what all has changed:

- Weapon swap speed has been doubled

- Chainsaw has been replaced with the Impact Gauntlet

- All maps recieved more ammo

- Provisions have been made for "-coop_spawns" to be playable as a new hardest difficulty

- Ambient sounds have been added and used in almost every map

- New decorations that fit aesthetics better on some maps are added

- And there's so much more!

I originally planned to carry all this out for NanoWadMo, but the project ballooned a bit more than I expected it too. It's completely coincidental that I released this on this day in particular. If you've played Judgment already, there's plenty of other things you can probably spend your time playing, but if you're itching for a replay I highly recommend trying it with "-coop_spawns" in your command line!

Thanks to everyone who played the original.

= Downloads:

Judgment: Retrial - RC1.1 (12/11/2023) • Mirror

Edited December 12, 2023 by Rayziik : New version released

FEDEX · December 10, 2023

On 1/1/2022 at 1:17 PM, Rayziik said:

I'll also be uploading those reject maps to the archive as well soon, mostly just for archiving purposes.

Any news about this ?

Rayziik · December 10, 2023

47 minutes ago, FEDEX said:

Any news about this ?

Uhhhh yea I must've forgotten about this at some point. I'll get to it soon (probably)

Firedust · December 10, 2023

Would it be possible to add the new mp difficulty level to the difficulty selection menu? I thought both mbf21 and gzdoom support this.

Rayziik · December 10, 2023

41 minutes ago, Firedust said:

Would it be possible to add the new mp difficulty level to the difficulty selection menu? I thought both mbf21 and gzdoom support this.

I'll look into it. I was under the impression that that would require UDMF to be used

Rayziik · December 12, 2023

On 12/10/2023 at 2:55 AM, Rayziik said:

I'll look into it. I was under the impression that that would require UDMF to be used

Turns out UDMF is not required! :)

Mega-Violence is UV with "-coop_spawns" active. Ultra-Nightmare! is Nightmare! with "-coop_spawns" active. That's the only differences.

You can use the same link as before to download. I updated a few very small things here and there as well, but nothing major enough to push a new RC entirely.

Also if anyone has better names for the two difficulties, I'm all ears. I am not a very eloquent person...

Firedust · December 12, 2023

I mean, mega-violence is very clear about what it does but it does sound a tad goofy, I suppose. Considering the wad's name is Judgment, I'd prolly use the word 'sentenced' in the name somewhere.

General Rainbow Bacon · December 12, 2023

Maybe Mega-Violence could be "Life sentence" and Ultra-NM could be "Death Sentence"

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Judgment: Retrial - 34 Map MBF21 Megawad (RC3 - 1/31/2024)

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