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DooMBoy

Deepsea strikes again

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Well, today, I was well underway with my remake of The Crypts, for Heretic. I saved the wad after adding a couple new rooms and such, then went to play it. Suddenly ZDoom bombed out with a "you must fix these lines to play this level" error.
I went back to Deepsea and checked to see what was wrong. Turns out nearly every impassable wall in the whole damn level was flipped around. This would not have been a problem had my level not been so detailed and spread out as it was at the time before the nodes blew up.
I have to ask: WHY does Deepsea do this?! This makes the second or third level I've had to rebuild because Deepsea's nodes builder fux0red around with the nodes and completely ruined the level. >:(

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one of the biggest notes in deepsea's tutorial is to make sure that you are drawing your sectors in a CLOCKWISE direction. otherwise you get that blown-inside-out effect that zdoom won't let run. yes, I know. It sux, but I think there is an option to flip all selected linedefs for you. why not try that?

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nodes builders don't touch linedef or sidedef data, and if you have the back side of a 1s linedef (which references sector -1) doom will not run the map. I don't use deepsea myself, but I've never heard of this error before so I'm betting you drew the lines wrong as frwl said. Just flip them and it should work fine.

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Sounds like something got fucked up during the save of the level data. Could be Deepsea's fault, may even possibly a memory glitch or an os brainfart. These things happen sometimes. That's why it's important to save your level with a different name everytime. That way if a snarl occurs you can go back to a previously saved version without losing a lot of work.

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stphrz said:

That's why it's important to save your level with a different name everytime. That way if a snarl occurs you can go back to a previously saved version without losing a lot of work.

Also, if your editor is set up to automatically create a backup wad every time you save, you can simply re-name your backup file and use it like a regular wad.

Btw: Long time no see, stphrz. Welcome back.

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stphrz said:

...an os brainfart.

that is a totaly new expression to me, lol.

oh ya! deepsea usualy does make backup files! Doomboy might wanna check those...

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frwl said:

one of the biggest notes in deepsea's tutorial is to make sure that you are drawing your sectors in a CLOCKWISE direction. otherwise you get that blown-inside-out effect that zdoom won't let run. yes, I know. It sux, but I think there is an option to flip all selected linedefs for you. why not try that?

Yeah, I got that down. I tried flipping the reversed impassable walls, same thing. Oh well. /me sighs

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stphrz said:

That's why it's important to save your level with a different name everytime. That way if a snarl occurs you can go back to a previously saved version without losing a lot of work.


Yep DeepSea is certainly temperamental, especially when the map gets big. I usually set up a series of 5 saves e.g. map01a,b,c,d,e and cycle through the them each time I save. It's certainly 'saved' me a lot of times, heh.

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I've never had DeePsea do THAT but I have had it disallow me from changing flats before. I can change a flat, go to save, save, and go back to the level and it's back to what it was before. What the heck! If I alter some verticies and/or add some things it starts working again but when I have to add something just to change a floor flat it gets annoying.

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Nanami said:

I've never had DeePsea do THAT but I have had it disallow me from changing flats before. I can change a flat, go to save, save, and go back to the level and it's back to what it was before. What the heck! If I alter some verticies and/or add some things it starts working again but when I have to add something just to change a floor flat it gets annoying.

Must be an older version where some changes were not flagged. If there's no change flagged (just look at the bottom of the screen - it will say "Change=Yes", then it won't save any changes. So when you changed a "vertex", it forced the flag and presto the changes were saved. Current version is 11.75 (actually 11.76, but I haven't had time to post the new shareware).

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DooMBoy said:

I went back to Deepsea and checked to see what was wrong. Turns out nearly every impassable wall in the whole damn level was flipped around. ...
I have to ask: WHY does Deepsea do this?! This makes the second or third level I've had to rebuild because Deepsea's nodes builder fux0red around with the nodes and completely ruined the level. >:(

Not possible. Also as Cyb noted, DeePBSP (nodebuilder) has nothing to do with this either. Now Zennode/Warm does do more messing around here, so be careful what switches are used.

What you probably did was accidently select a whole bunch of lines and used the shortcut "flip sidedef" key (ctrl+F or the menu version) or use a nodebuilder with the wrong switches.

The actual lump/array is saved as ONE entity. There is no logic there to mess around with it at all, hence there's nothing that picks and choose just "impassable" lines to "flip". Since this has been this way for around 8 years and no one has ever offered -proof- of this happening, points to something else (could be fuxored because of memory issues - see next post).

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magikal said:

Yep DeepSea is certainly temperamental, especially when the map gets big. I usually set up a series of 5 saves e.g. map01a,b,c,d,e and cycle through the them each time I save. It's certainly 'saved' me a lot of times, heh.

Well it is on Win9x or if you are using 3DFX drivers:) Turning off the toolbars fixes most issues. Your backup method is a good idea though - for any project where you have a lot of time invested, not just level editing.

Level size makes absolutely no difference to DeePsea. However, if a system gets corrupted memory, the chance of a problem increases if you are not using XP/NT. In Windows 9x - if any program crashes (that includes any DOOM port), you better reboot unless you are willing to live with random failures from that point on.

And I forgot the mention that backups are automatically made with the .BAK extension. So all one has to do is rename the .BAK to .WAD and you have the prior level before it was changed. There's also always a copy of the NEW level in ~DEEP.WAD if somehow the nodebuild (usually if not using DeePBSP) screws up. And last, it's easy to make backups either automatically or manually (besides saving them as new names - a good idea in all cases). Set the autosave option or just press Ctrl+F2 and it makes a .BKP file.

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I think he meant switch Deep for WA, or switch deepbsp for zennode. But the latter won't fix the problem anyway.

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deep said:

Well it is on Win9x or if you are using 3DFX drivers:) Turning off the toolbars fixes most issues. Your backup method is a good idea though - for any project where you have a lot of time invested, not just level editing.

Level size makes absolutely no difference to DeePsea. However, if a system gets corrupted memory, the chance of a problem increases if you are not using XP/NT. In Windows 9x - if any program crashes (that includes any DOOM port), you better reboot unless you are willing to live with random failures from that point on.

Nope, I'm using XP and no 3DFX. One consistant probem I've found with my current map, 15k+ linedefs is the random multiple selection of linedefs or sectors or verticies when I've plainly only selected one. This has occured after multiple re-installs and on more than one computer. I have v11.65.
Don't get me wrong, it's still a great editor imo and with the cyclic save it's fine.

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BlackFyre said:

Two words...Wad Author (-: or Zen Node

DCK and zennode. :)

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I use both WA and Zennode in tandem. While I like the easy to use interface of WA, it's internal node complier gets buggy after the map reaches a certian size. so I use ZenNode to build the nodes and reject tables. I have mapped for over three years using this combination and have yet to go wrong :-)

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hm... I just noticed that I never tried WA... weird... gotta download that.

+ when is DeePsea going freeware (hint hint)? :D

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BBG said:

WA crashes if I look at it funny.

Undoubtedly, yet questionably, ditto.

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WA is far from perfect, mind you...I have had it crash for no reason whatsoever a couple times, but for the most part, it runs just fine. WA is what I started mapping with, and while I have tried other editing programmes, including DeepSea, it has proved to work best for me. WA, ZenNode, and Wintex rule! :D

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magikal said:

Nope, I'm using XP and no 3DFX. One consistant probem I've found with my current map, 15k+ linedefs is the random multiple selection of linedefs or sectors or verticies when I've plainly only selected one. This has occured after multiple re-installs and on more than one computer.

That random multiple selection of linedefs or sectors is a WindowsXP problem where the mouse will "fall through" all your Windows every minute or so (noted by a graphical glitch around the cursor), if there are other windows behind Deepsea while you're selecting stuff, it'll select things somehow related to area of the window behind the editor.

deep said:

Level size makes absolutely no difference to DeePsea. However, if a system gets corrupted memory, the chance of a problem increases if you are not using XP/NT. In Windows 9x - if any program crashes (that includes any DOOM port), you better reboot unless you are willing to live with random failures from that point on.

One thing I used to think was a Deepsea problem but turned out to be a 98 problem was when I'd save a map and DeepBSP would begin building the nodes, bomb out and corrupt the file. After a few months I found out that running ANYTHING DOS-based after 98 had more than a few programs opened and closed would cause the OS to bomb out (including forced reboot by endless bluescreens if you ran anything fullscreen).

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BBG said:

WA crashes if I look at it funny.

Thats because you look funny. I honestly can't say I've ever had a problem with WadAuthor, yet I always hear people complaining about how it supposedly ate their map or crashed on them or something. Thing is, I've had only three major nodebuilding errors (and no minor ones that I have noticed) ever, and the program has NEVER crashed on me (unless I have one of those stupid daily Windows Explorer crashes...blah).

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magikal said:

Nope, I'm using XP and no 3DFX. One consistant probem I've found with my current map, 15k+ linedefs is the random multiple selection of linedefs or sectors or verticies when I've plainly only selected one. This has occured after multiple re-installs and on more than one computer. I have v11.65.
Don't get me wrong, it's still a great editor imo and with the cyclic save it's fine.

Thanks for the info. Lut's explanation makes sense, although I've never experienced it. I also appreciated his "DOS" explanation. I put that one on the video drivers - since I discovered that even just jumping to a "DOS" fullscreen created havoc. So what I did was switch to windowed mode and that made it much better (in Win9x). Could be a generic DOS support problem though and not the video drivers?

So far, all cases of keyboard and mouse issues have always been traced back to either a non-MS product or keyboard bg tasks (sometimes others) that screw things up. The way to trace this is to disable these tasks.

If a program starts behaving oddly processing mouse messages, that means the mouse messages being sent are being corrupted - for example the case where XP loses track of which windows gets which messages(?). I've never had this happen myself - but I run only stock MS kb/mouse drivers. I have used other products, but have never installed support for these (usually little panels that you can program) since stock drivers were fine.

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Deep they will keep whining my maps only get messed up if im unsure what im doing.
I would like to ask someone, are there some tutorials (for deapsea) to show you how to some more advanced architexture ( i would love some online tutorials, have IE open whileim mapping). ive made lots of maps with rooms and stuff and stairs. But i dont understand if you have a sector, can you make stuff thats against the wall of the sector. or do you have to plan ahead hwn making the sector. Im not english i hope you guys understand what im trying to say. Ill give an example.
something like this http://www.doomsdayhq.com/screenshots/jdoom/darken.jpg

not as comlicated ofcourse. But do you get the idea? the ceiling is what i would like to understand how to make. My problem is kinda that i lack insight in line and side defs and rely to much on your easy prefabs =) Ive tried to make lightboxes embedded agaist the walls that messes it up. Thanks anyone that can help cya.

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Dyne said:

I would like to ask someone, are there some tutorials (for deapsea) to show you how to some more advanced architexture .. the ceiling is what i would like to understand how to make.

Just about any tutorial works - even if for another editor - once one understands the basics of level construction. For the latter you can review the DeePsea online help for overview - for example, "A detailed look at wad files" and "Map Vocabulary".

For this particular question, you can look at the DOOM2TUT.WAD that's part of the DeePsea install (also has a written explanation to go with it). Look on the right side of the map and there you have something similar to what you want. Basically all it takes is a sector with F_SKY1 as the ceiling, some ceiling height offsets and then you get that effect.

There is a large variation in level creation [there's a thread not too long ago on this subject - maybe someone can find it]. What works for one person does not work for another - try out diffferent styles. Some plan on paper. I tend to have a rough idea of what I want, then I bang it into shape, much the same way I code:-)

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Dyne said:

Deep they will keep whining my maps only get messed up if im unsure what im doing.

No whining here, just plain experience which I'm sure Deep wants to be aware of as he constantly improves what is already a supurb product, imo.
Lut, whilst editing I never have any other programmes/windows running.
The map is now done, but I did notice it would only happen when linedefs/vertices selected were close to the edge of the map. My mouse is non-MS, maybe that's the problem, heh.

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magical that map looks pretty cool i like the pentagram roof thingies

and deep thanks for help

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