[Now on /idgames] 128 Linedefs, 64 Things (Vanilla Community Project)

@Arsinikk map19 update - revision B https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JanLIVriFZFWE2HRVpEKd4P-Fzk0---Z/view?usp=sharing

@Sneezy McGlassFace Beta has been updated with the new version of MAP19.

Download Beta 1.1

Noice, I like that new pallete!

That last screenshot is just unfortunate

@Arsinikkmap02 update - revision ( changed enemy placement,a new soundtrack^{[ B4U Dance dance revolution ]} and a secret for continous players )   Lockjaw.zip

Also would reccomend changing that bfg on map 04 for a plasma-gun, it breaks the next maps for continous players highly, and the map is totally possible to be completed with a plasma-gun, I don't see any problem in changing it.

@Arsinikk You should try doing what you did with your 200 line massacre promotion wad (slotter) with this.

It'll be cool to see how you tackle our maps, commentated.

13 hours ago, Arsinikk said:

 

 

I see something strange in doomguy face.. 17% health and looks so good, withouth a ocean of blood hehe...

1 minute ago, FEDEX said:

I see something strange in doomguy face.. 17% health and looks so good, withouth a ocean of blood hehe...

It's a bug in doom, if you pick up a weapon and then take damage while doomguy is still grinning, the still visible grin will not change due to it having a higher priority.

This decino vid explains it better

Cool to see a proper thread for this project...

4 hours ago, gabirupee said:

@Arsinikkmap02 update - revision ( changed enemy placement,a new soundtrack^{[ B4U Dance dance revolution ]} and a secret for continous players )   Lockjaw.zip

Thanks I'll update this when I get a chance.

4 hours ago, gabirupee said:

Also would reccomend changing that bfg on map 04 for a plasma-gun, it breaks the next maps for continous players highly, and the map is totally possible to be completed with a plasma-gun, I don't see any problem in changing it.

So this is more a response to everyone, but I'd like to address this. Frost-Core has not been online for 2 weeks now. I sent him a DM a week ago, but he has yet to respond. Since he is still technically the project leader, I still wanna respect him, since without him this CP wouldn't exist in the first place.

I had a suggestion for his MAP04 and MAP07... I mean besides the removal of the BFG, which I and multiple others have mentioned repeatedly while even tagging him. My suggestion is that me and Luleta could potentially give his maps a bit of a facelift.

So while keeping the MAP04 layout exactly the same, I came up with this:

Frostcore-Arsinikk-Mancubus.wad

I honestly wouldn't mind if I just said that map was made solely by Frost-Core... I just wanted to solve that BFG problem and bring his maps up a bit.

What are your guys' thoughts?

3 hours ago, FEDEX said:

I see something strange in doomguy face.. 17% health and looks so good, withouth a ocean of blood hehe...

Like Codename_Delta said, it is a sort of "bug". I actually didn't notice this until I was done posting the screenshots. I actually recorded an hour and a half of DOS footage just to get good screenshots, so all those screenshots are directly taken from DOS Doom!

4 hours ago, Codename_Delta said:

@Arsinikk You should try doing what you did with your 200 line massacre promotion wad (slotter) with this.

  

It'll be cool to see how you tackle our maps, commentated.

I was actually planning to stream this CP on my Twitch Channel (https://www.twitch.tv/arsinikkdm), once I thought the CP was finalised enough. Idk if the YouTube format would be the greatest for this CP, since some maps would require a bit of grinding to be done saveless (MAP23, MAP26, MAP29, etc). And some maps I can't even beat with saves (MAP28).

2 hours ago, Walter confetti said:

Cool to see a proper thread for this project...

Hopefully this thread gets people more excited/willing to try out the CP!! :D

15 minutes ago, Arsinikk said:

So while keeping the MAP04 layout exactly the same, I came up with this:

Frostcore-Arsinikk-Mancubus.wad

 

I honestly wouldn't mind if I just said that map was made solely by Frost-Core... I just wanted to solve that BFG problem and bring his maps up a bit.

What are your guys' thoughts?

I've played the facelift of frostcore's map and im totally favor of this idea, not changing the layout scheme of the map but adding some eye candy and fixing the problems that the maps have. ( having only one texture, random encounters and basically zero height variation ) while still giving frostcore credit :P

@Paf how's that demo of MAP28 coming along?

1 minute ago, Arsinikk said:

@Paf how's that demo of MAP28 coming along?

Agh, forgot about it. I have a proof-of-concept TAS (50% game speed is all) for routing 100% though. I'll keep working on trying to get a 100% non-tas.

BTW, this is the link to the [TAS] demo if anyone wants to see: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DizIMJ6_4p2IrffH2PxO647WhI4xuCiW/view?usp=sharing

34 minutes ago, Paf said:

BTW, this is the link to the [TAS] demo if anyone wants to see: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DizIMJ6_4p2IrffH2PxO647WhI4xuCiW/view?usp=sharing

You need to make the file public for people to download.

Beta 1.2 is now out!

Download Beta 1.2

Here's the changes:

• Changed some enemy placement and music for MAP02 @gabirupee
• MAP04 has been refreshed
• Changed music for Story text and my bonus MAP33 to a new midi composed by me

So I'd like to know your guys' thoughts on this:

Originally I had to idea of giving a facelift to both Frost-Core's maps MAP04 and MAP07. However it was mostly MAP04 that of the most concern, because of the old version giving the player a BFG way too early in the megawad. MAP07 is a bit of an amateur map, but honestly it's so short that most players would probably just run through it.

@Luleta was going to make a refreshed version of MAP07, but then made the point that some amount of Frost-Core's legacy should be retained, since this is a community project. So I guess the question is whether or not MAP07 should be refreshed or not?

And if it is the case that we would want to retain Frost-Core's legacy, it would probably be a better idea to set the author of MAP04 to "Frost-Core / Arsinikk", since if MAP07 is just Frost-Core, then obviously it would be confusing to think MAP04 is the same mapper as MAP07.

Honestly this would be so much less confusing if Frost-Core wasn't absent and could give his thoughts. I personally think a minor touch up of MAP07 would be fine, but I wanna know what the rest of you guys think.

37 minutes ago, Arsinikk said:

So I'd like to know your guys' thoughts on this:

 

Originally I had to idea of giving a facelift to both Frost-Core's maps MAP04 and MAP07. However it was mostly MAP04 that of the most concern, because of the old version giving the player a BFG way too early in the megawad. MAP07 is a bit of an amateur map, but honestly it's so short that most players would probably just run through it.

 

@Luleta was going to make a refreshed version of MAP07, but then made the point that some amount of Frost-Core's legacy should be retained, since this is a community project. So I guess the question is whether or not MAP07 should be refreshed or not?

 

And if it is the case that we would want to retain Frost-Core's legacy, it would probably be a better idea to set the author of MAP04 to "Frost-Core / Arsinikk", since if MAP07 is just Frost-Core, then obviously it would be confusing to think MAP04 is the same mapper as MAP07.

 

Honestly this would be so much less confusing if Frost-Core wasn't absent and could give his thoughts. I personally think a minor touch up of MAP07 would be fine, but I wanna know what the rest of you guys think.

When you re-update the wad can you also change map29 music track for this one? The more I make maps, the more I rethink about my musical choices. :P

M29 MIDI.zip

@Arsinikk I don't like the idea of changing somebody's maps, in any capacity, and keeping their name in the credit. Regardless of intentions, without @Frost-Core's explicit sign-off, it feels tantamount to building a public strawman in his image.

At this point, if leadership has been fully usurped, I'd advocate for just cutting his fucking maps if the consensus agrees. Stressing out over what to do is a lot easier when you go for a clean break, rather than a messy attempt at saving a rotting limb.

Keep Frost-Core in the credits where relevant ("Original Project Lead", "Map Author", whatever), but if this is gonna' be the de facto project central proper, then don't start taking half-measures now.

I don't like any of this, just for the record, and I don't envy you in this moment.

========================

Edit to add that I like the palette swap on the Plasma Gun. I don't wanna' skip on mentioning that.

1 hour ago, Rancid Sam said:

@Arsinikk I don't like the idea of changing somebody's maps, in any capacity, and keeping their name in the credit. Regardless of intentions, without @Frost-Core's explicit sign-off, it feels tantamount to building a public strawman in his image.

Sigh... I know it may not seem like it, but I've been trying so hard to defend Frost-Core and his maps, and so that's why I've been trying to keep him in the project... But you do make a point. It may just be better remove his maps altogether and have other people fill the mapslots. Since, he hasn't been online for 2 1/2 weeks, and hasn't responded to hardly any of the posts he's been tagged in... I feel that as a project manager, even if taking a break... there's still some responsibility that you must have to keep in contact and work with the rest of the community.

1 hour ago, Rancid Sam said:

At this point, if leadership has been fully usurped, I'd advocate for just cutting his fucking maps if the consensus agrees. Stressing out over what to do is a lot easier when you go for a clean break, rather than a messy attempt at saving a rotting limb.

 

As I said before, it actually really hurts imo to think that his leadership has been usurped... That was never my intention, nor Luleta's intention to usurp any leadership. We were just trying to pick up the slack that seemed to be lacking. I still have some decent respect for Frost-Core, and that is why we are in this predicament now.

1 hour ago, Rancid Sam said:

Keep Frost-Core in the credits where relevant ("Original Project Lead", "Map Author", whatever), but if this is gonna' be the de facto project central proper, then don't start taking half-measures now.

I almost feel like if we cut his maps, we should also cut his TITLEPIC and M_DOOM graphics... I obviously want him to be listed as the "Original Project Lead", but it would feel weird to have those with his maps not in the set.

1 hour ago, Rancid Sam said:

I don't like any of this, just for the record, and I don't envy you in this moment.

I don't like this at all either for the record. It's a hundred times more difficult and that's why I was asking what the rest of you thought, because I don't think this is really a decision that just Luleta and I should make. This is a community project, and I plan to keep it that way.

@Arsinikk Short version of my take: it makes the most sense to me to remove Frost-Core's maps and replace them. I can take or leave the other assets he provided.

I'm glad you're serving as an advocate for @Frost-Core here; I see where you're coming from, as he did start the project and provide two maps pretty early on. However, I think we should hold his submissions to a similar standard as we would for any others in the set. To me, the natural flow goes something like this:

1. This is a community project, and there seems to be some amount of consensus that Frost-Core's maps don't quite fit into the collective vision for the finished product.
2. We do our due diligence trying to contact Frost-Core about our concerns and request changes or further considerations from him about said maps.
3. Frost-Core has elected not to address these concerns. For most participants, this seems like sufficient grounds to remove the maps in question, as they aren't getting the attention expected by the project participants.
4. We need to decided whether to treat Frost-Core's maps differently than in point 3, since he started the project initially.

My opinion in point 4 is that Frost-Core's maps should be held to at least as high a standard as the rest of ours, so binning the maps makes sense to me. One could argue that we're "within our rights" to alter Frost-Core's maps in a way we all find agreeable, given that Frost-Core submitted these maps to be a part of this project. However, the cleanest approach to me seems to be simply replacing MAP04 and MAP07, since we don't know exactly what Frost-Core's intentions were when he added the maps, and we don't know how he would react if he saw the edited versions. I have slightly different feelings about the title screen and intermission text, as those seem usable as-is without tinkering, and they aren't taking up slots that people may want to use otherwise

Hopefully my line of thought makes sense and provides some progress toward helping us decide what seems like the way forward here. I think you're right to take some care here, and I appreciate the effort you've put into finding an agreeable resolution.

@Large Cat Let's see what other people have to say.

I will say after @Rancid Sam's comments, I am leaning towards replacing Frost's maps with new maps. Since I will agree that it seems a bit wrong to make edits to another person's maps without their consent. Which leads into the second reason I'm leaning towards replacing them, we have made a conscious effort to contact Frost-Core without any reply. If the project leader is not willing to engage with the rest of the community, at some point we need to move forward.

I guess I am fine with keeping the TITLEPIC... The only reason I mentioned it is in case we wanted to have a widescreen asset WAD. If we deem that important, we'd have to recreate the graphic. I added the INTERPIC and the CWILV graphics so those are no problem.

Again, I'd like to see if more people agree with this moving forward... Maybe like this post, if you agree with this.

I've remained silent on this issue until now, mostly because I didn't think it was my place to comment on it - and I'm not exactly the world's greatest or most respected mapper, so I also don't feel qualified to judge someone else's maps. Ultimately, I think the idea of @Frost-Core being owed map slots because they started the project is admirable, but probably not necessary. Let's be real here - it doesn't take that much effort to just come up with an idea for a community project, especially one that's just a slight modification of project parameters that have been used countless times before. I'm very grateful to Frost-Core for being willing to put a thread out there and inspire lots of people to create cool maps - but the level of absenteeism exhibited by F-C in the thread makes it very apparent that they did not understand (or care to learn) the role that a project leader is expected to accept. I won't ascribe any sinister motives to Frost-Core in this whole ordeal; I merely think they were an excited new member whose mind was overflowing with possible Doom ideas after finding a community of like-minded individuals - we've all been there at some point!

However, I think the complete lack of contact with Frost-Core over the past 2 weeks, especially considering the original project deadline came and went during this AWOL period, means that F-C has effectively abandoned the project. Additionally, I think that almost everyone who submitted a map to this project, regardless of quality, at least responded to feedback and posted further revisions of their maps... as far as I can tell, F-C basically just wanted to consider the maps done after first posting. I'm not going to outright say "these maps aren't good enough to be a part of this project," because that opens a can of worms by which we could start arbitrarily determining what "deserves" to be in this project - not exactly a standard we want to set, as everyone has their own subjective idea of what constitutes an acceptable Doom map. Especially considering the highly restrictive line limits on this project, I'm fine with people producing maps that are a bit outside the realm of traditional "quality". I think the key difference is the complete lack of effort to improve or revise the maps, even after seeing countless constructive posts on how to tweak or improve the map. Every map making exercise should be considered an opportunity to improve your craft and learn something new. I think Frost-Core probably hit a wall after realizing the amount of effort that might be required to reach the "standards" of the rest of the maps that started to be contributed, and gave up - which is not a failure on their part, that was basically me for the first 15 years I was on this forum!

Over the course of the thread, I think we've all inspired and pushed each other to make better maps, discussed the key design ideas of low-line-count mapping, pointed out places for improvement... this is the sense of collaboration that a community project is supposed to bring to its participants. Beyond offering some basic contributions and making the bare minimum effort to be considered the "leader," I don't think Frost-Core really had a full investment in the project as a living document and a collaborative effort meant to be greater than the sum of its parts. Additionally, @Arsinikk has picked up the slack to a degree that goes above and beyond what anyone could have reasonably expected... which by itself shows to me that they care more about this project than Frost-Core ever did, and I've considered them the leader for a while now, anyway!

So, at the end of the day, what do we owe Frost-Core's "legacy" in this project? I don't know - something more than nothing (just out of a general sense of respect), but considering the abundance of creativity, enthusiasm, and productivity many participants have shown over the course of this project's lifespan, I think it's more than acceptable to replace their maps with two new contributions, and I don't think it would be that hard or take that long to find willing participants to offer up some replacements. After all, a real leader would want the project to be the best possible product it could be, even if that meant taking a back seat in some respects.

After seeing the overall consensus and Frost-Core's absence period, I have decided that it's probably best to move forward without his maps in the project. I will still keep a credit to him as "The Original Project Lead".

And with that said, MAP04 and MAP07 mapslots will now be open to whomever wants to claim them. Since we finally have control of a thread, I can change the thread title and description to help get new mappers in. I think it'd be best to try to get 2 new mappers in with those slots... But if we don't get any response from anybody new, then we can resort to one of us already in the project making the last two maps.

With that said, I will post the rules below:

• There are no more open mapslots at this time. Sorry :/

• Each map can only have a total of 128 Linedefs and 64 Things (across all difficulties - meaning that it isn't 64 things per difficulty, but 64 things in total)

• Maps with less than 128 Linedefs and 64 Things will be accepted; more will be rejected

• Must be vanilla compatible (We will playtest maps in Chocolate Doom)

• Stock Doom 2 textures only (No custom wall, floor, ceiling, or sky resources)

• 100% kills on UV must be possible - if we find it questionable, we ask you to provide a demo.

• It would be nice for each map to have at least 1 secret and 1 item (Not every submitted map has followed this, so it's not a big deal if your map doesn't)

• Midi chosen must be under the Vanilla ~64kb size limit

• Deadline is August 11th for first revision of map.

I have also updated the Beta:

• Removed Frost-Core's maps from the project
• Also @gabirupee, I've updated the midi for MAP29.

Download Beta 1.3

16 minutes ago, Arsinikk said:

After seeing the overall consensus and Frost-Core's absence period, I have decided that it's probably best to move forward without his maps in the project. I will still keep a credit to him as "The Original Project Lead".

 

And with that said, MAP04 and MAP07 mapslots will now be open to whomever wants to claim them. Since we finally have control of a thread, I can change the thread title and description to help get new mappers in. I think it'd be best to try to get 2 new mappers in with those slots... But if we don't get any response from anybody new, then we can resort to one of us already in the project making the last two maps.

 

With that said, I will post the rules below:

 

• MAP04 - ???
• MAP07 - ???

 

• Each map can only have a total of 128 Linedefs and 64 Things (across all difficulties - meaning that it isn't 64 things per difficulty, but 64 things in total)
• Maps with less than 128 Linedefs and 64 Things will be accepted; more will be rejected
• Must be vanilla compatible (We will playtest maps in Chocolate Doom)
• Stock Doom 2 textures only (No custom wall, floor, ceiling, or sky resources)
• 100% kills on UV must be possible - if we find it questionable, we ask you to provide a demo.
• It would be nice for each map to have at least 1 secret and 1 item (Not every submitted map has followed this, so it's not a big deal if your map doesn't)

 

I have also updated the Beta:

• Removed Frost-Core's maps from the project
• Also @gabirupee, I've updated the midi for MAP29.

Download Beta 1.3

Could I have map04?

Just now, Thelokk said:

Could I have map04?

Sure thing, I'll write you in.

I actually forgot to set a deadline.

You think you could get the map done by August 11th?

Just now, Arsinikk said:

You think you could get the map done by August 11th?

You got it chief.

I'll have a crack at MAP07 if possible.

Just now, Scorpius said:

I'll have a crack at MAP07 if possible.

Sure I'll write you in!

Here's my map35.

Name: Seemless void

mapper name: LSD Lasido (j.k its actually LSC Lasico, i just took 40 benadryls)

build time: liek a lot of my time

gameplay style: bullet hell

music: We will fly (void version) by Colden (my alias that i use for music making)

P.S it's sad that frost core maps had to go, but oh well, you tried every other option before this one. I kinda liked araarasinikk's rendition of map04

P.P.S btw i just had the idea for a title screen and credit graphic, will do these tomorrow and show them in this thread (of course, if you won't like it, you can simply not use it, i will simply post it here as a suggestion once im done)

Untitled2.zip