When Do You like to Know a Secret Has Been Revealed?

Sometimes there is no material difference, but sometimes it’s significant.

Say you hump a misaligned wall and a door opens. You walk into an empty STARTAN room, follow a path, shoot a few imps, and drop down onto a platform to get that soul sphere that was visible from the critical path.

Or maybe you parkour onto a suspect ledge, work your way around it, then fall to an otherwise unseeable area with a BFG perched on a FLAT20 pedestal.

First option is a vote for the STARTAN room and the initial ledge as the secret sector.

Second option is a vote for the soul sphere platform and the BFG pedestal as the secret sector .

What do you think?

^{This should go in editing maybe?}

I prefer getting notified of a secret once I've reached the loot. It can actually be confusing sometimes to have it happen earlier, if the secret is still out of sight.

I like getting notified as soon as I enter the secret area. For me, finding a secret is almost as rewarding as getting the bonus item. 

Right at the beginning of the map, that way I know right off the bat that I'm playing an OBLIGE map (does OBLIGE still do this?).

Mark both as secrets, as well as every sector in between. Leave me in the dark about how many secrets your secret counts as.

4 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

Right at the beginning of the map, that way I know right off the bat that I'm playing an OBLIGE map (does OBLIGE still do this?).

OBLIGE Still Does That, You Don't See It Anymore Because No One Uses OBLIGE In Current Year 2022.

2 minutes ago, TheMagicMushroomMan said:

If nobody uses OBLIGE in 2022, how do you know that OBLIGE still does that in 2022? BUSTED.

LOL

58 minutes ago, HAK3180 said:

Say you hump a misaligned wall and a door opens. You walk into an empty STARTAN room, follow a path, shoot a few imps, and drop down onto a platform to get that soul sphere that was visible from the critical path.

 

Or maybe you parkour onto a suspect ledge, work your way around it, then fall to an otherwise unseeable area with a BFG perched on a FLAT20 pedestal.

These points make the most sense to me. 

An important consideration with advanced source ports is it's possible to attach a secret directly to the item itself (i.e. the logical conclusion of the second of the two options above).

However, this can cause issues, because sometimes you don't need the secret item just yet. If it's a green armor and you already have blue, for example. Or a second berserk pack and you're above 100% health.

In those situations, many people will want to be rewarded for the secret without having to actually pick up the item. It could be you never end up needing the item, in which case the secret may never be triggered if the map has points of no return, or if you just forget about it.

Much better to have the secret trigger earlier, regardless of whether you actually pick up the item or not.

i like to keep the secret notif sounds(&text if applicable) off, but i do crosscheck the k/i/s counts every once in a while if that's an option/feature in the port i'm playing

True completionists like to tag every sector in the entire map. 

In all seriousness I prefer to be able to tag the secret without picking up the item if I so choose. I don't necessarily like secrets or triggers placed on items themselves unless there's a good reason.

As soon as I actually find the loot itself. I want that dopamine rush goddammit!

In either example, I would consider flagging one of the sectors that composes the core of the secret annex, preferably a big enough one, not easy to miss, and perhaps readily accessible depending on the utility of the prize -- if there's the possibility that the soulsphere isn't needed at that moment for X or Y reasons... which can be the STARTAN room in the first case, and the unseeable area in the second. 

I'm personally sort of torn between the two. A case can definitely be made for both - the way I see it, it mostly depends on how the mapper decides to set it up. I don't really have a preference for one or the other.

I like being told right away, but not for a ledge like the example in the op.  With a ledge it may not necessarily be clear if it's used for a secret until you drop down to something, so you might actually give it away, whereas behind a misaligned wall it should be obvious.  Not triggering a secret behind a hidden door makes it seems like a weird progression or optional area until you get to the secret.  Making the secret be the item or very close to it is also annoying if you don't need it.

3 hours ago, Shepardus said:

Mark both as secrets, as well as every sector in between. Leave me in the dark about how many secrets your secret counts as.

For me it should pop up close to the items. Otherwise what's the point?

Hey buddy nice to see you

I love me my secrets

I think I usually try to make the actual area with the goodies the thing that lights up the notification

But that also depends on the situation

Like the map I'm about to release today or tomorrow: has a secret soulsphere on top of a 64x64 vent. I noticed I don't always land and trigger the secret so I made the path to it the trigger

My main concern is making sure the secret tag is not skippable

4 hours ago, Clippy said:

My main concern is making sure the secret tag is not skippable

That's one of my reasons and also just because it's nice to know whenever you find one.

But I do tag the rewards or the hidden/cryptic shit, but my secrets are generally pretty easy to find, either being a shootable switch or a different texture.

I would say the heart of the dilemma comes up mostly in substantial "more gameplay," secrets, as I call them, where there is nevertheless a clear final reward. I think of Deadwing and Steve D (among many others, granted), who would put you through a whole sidequest but then give up the BFG or megaarmor at the end of it. You want to signal right away that this is something more than just optional, but you also want to drive them toward that prize. I suppose a key difference might be whether the prize was visible in the first place. If you come to a substantial secret area having already seen the megasphere you're pretty sure is the end goal of this, then maybe it's better to tag the initial start-of-sidequest sector. But if the prize is not immediately obvious, it might be better to continue the suspense of "what will I find in here?" by withholding DSSECRET until they arrive at the single health bonus or whatever. I sometimes appreciate the sorta Doom 1 approach of "when in doubt, it's a secret," but I also think every secret should require a discrete mental or physical task, whether chained or not.

All in all, probably quite low on lists of things Doomers complain about.

I guess it depends, if there's a little hallway leading to the secret room I'd rather be notified when I'm in the room itself, because the "A Secret has been revealed" message feels good to read but it doesn't feel rewarding to see it before the secret room itself.

I guess I draw the linedef between the "wait, there's a path here?" and "ah this was hidden, nice" moments

Ideally, these should be close enough together that you don't need one for the "trick" and one for the reward. I think I prefer the linedef to be close to the reward, but but far enough away from it that I can leave it for later and still tag the secret. The only exception is if the reward comes after a cool battle, in which case, count the secret once I find the sinister glowing room with geometric patterns made with stair-maker wizardry. Generally, make it obvious that I've found a secret, so that if I'm playing on Chocolate Doom or without notifications, I know I've found something off the beaten path.

i prefer when the items are in the tagged sector.
But if the sector with the loot is too small to reliably tag, or it's a sector that requires some other effect for atmosphere, it's better for the secret-tagged sector to be one you can walk through just before the one with the items.

Wrong pitch, but this is how I like my secrets:

When I give up on finding it.

The tagged sector for me in most cases ideally should be in the room where the prize is (or cover the whole room), but allow to skip the prize itself. I agree with Juka about the position of the linedef limiting the sector, it should not be too far from the moment you discovered the entrance/performed the required trick. Exception: a big secret battle where you see your reward clearly, here the secret sector can be "geographically" far away from the entrance.

Honestly, I don't think there is a right or wrong moment to place a secret. Usually I leave a tellatale sign for it - but sometimes quite subtle - and put in helpful items. I learned to make sure the maps are playable without the secrets eventually, but now I wonder if I can actually make them playable without the items in all the optional areas. For now I haven't made many optional nonsecret areas - all of them contained secrets until now - so I'm planning to do that on my newest map. But still, if the area is non-secret, it will mean that the mapper should expect the player to be curious enough to visit it, right? 

Disclaimer - I didn't mean hidden optional areas. I meant areas like behind big metal doors for instance that are neither on the beaten path, nor contain anything too essential, just something useful. Because to me if there is a door or teleporter or if there is a monster in a seemingly dead end, there definitely must be something in that direction. 

I am not a mapper but I thoroughly enjoy secret hunting, so I pay attention to the subject and frequently have a look in the editor.

The secret is actually a sector effect (9), not a linedef or a thing. There are limits to what you can do, for instance you can't have both light effects and a secret on the same sector. The sector must be large enough for the player to fully enter it, and it should be placed in a position where you do not cross at full speed, or the game might fail to register it.

Another topic is whether to hide the secret sector lines on the automap or not. Most ports mark unchecked secret sectors by default, and you must consider if it is good to leave that hint for the player.

I guess these factors are way more important than when a (potentially turned off) message should display. As a preference, I think that finding the access point to a secret is more relevant than finding the reward or the optional encounters. 

Where possible I generally put the secret tag somewhere directly in sight of the secret items, but not directly underneath them, so that the player can pop the secret they've found even if they don't want that nice juicy soulsphere just yet.  It's often the "main" containing sector, the room or chamber or platform or wherever the secret stuff is, so that it'll be unmissable to anybody who's already found their way to it and preferably to get the message just as the loot is entering the line of sight.