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Grimm

My ZDoom Editing Plight

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I am having serious issues editing Zdoom. According to the ZDoom website editing page thingie, there are only four editors that can edit ZDoom--ZETH, WadAuthor, DMapEdit, and DeepSea. I'm usin' Windows, 'cause my DOS computer is verging on a piece of crap, so ZETH and DMapEdit are automatically out. WadAuthor simply does not work with me (it may work from scratch, but I sure as Hell can't figure out any easy way to edit built WADs), so that leaves DeepSea. I'm sure I'm past the SideDef or whatever limit and I'm sure as HELL not paying $50 dollars to register it (thanks, by the way), so that leaves me with naught. It seems my only choice might be to put ZDoom.wad on my DOS computer to edit it there so I can go play it on my Windows computer. Ha ha ha. It's actually not very funny. So, someone, please tell that there's other editors for ZDoom out there, and that the pages are wrong, or oyu might not ever see any ZDoom wads from me. Not that anyone'd care . . . :/

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RTDscout said:

please tell that there's other editors for ZDoom out there, and that the pages are wrong


My mother told me never to lie. Actually, Why might have someting like what you want, but I doubt it.

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Well, then, please tell me how, 'cause I can't figure it out. And thanks.

EDIT: Whoops, I think I may have simply downloaded DETH and assumed ZETH wouldn't work under XP. I'll soon find out.

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RTDscout said:

.. so that leaves DeepSea. I'm sure I'm past the SideDef or whatever limit and I'm sure as HELL not paying $50 dollars to register it (thanks, by the way)

Not that this changes anything, but it's $34 dollars and 5 or 6 shipping. Shipping is optional -IF- you can receive a 1mb attachment. Updates are free for 6 months.

ZETH works on most XP machines, not all. Depends on your video card. The only reason one of the ones you mention are required is if you intend to use scripting = HEXEN format levels. Btw, DETH also works - just get the latest one.

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RTDscout said:

So, someone, please tell that there's other editors for ZDoom out there ....

Try XWE. It's versatile, it works just fine with ZDooM, and it's free.

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ReX said:

Try XWE. It's versatile, it works just fine with ZDooM, and it's free.

Not really "fine". It sort of works. Problems are speed, clumsy interface and HEXEN editing still needs a lot of work.

It doesn't do Csabo any good if he doesn't get realistic feedback. IOW, how many large levels have you made with XWE?

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boris said:

ZETH does work in Windows. Yes, even in XP.

heh, i can't get it working on my computer on xp. just blanks out the screen when i try. i think slayer` is having that same problem on xp.

deep said:

Not really "fine". It sort of works. Problems are speed, clumsy interface and HEXEN editing still needs a lot of work.

It doesn't do Csabo any good if he doesn't get realistic feedback. IOW, how many large levels have you made with XWE?

nice to see a friendly face

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deep said:

IOW, how many large levels have you made with XWE?

How many large levels have you made with XWE?

Let RTDScout be the judge of whether or not XWE works fine for his purposes. For a free (note use of underlined word, with bold face added for emphasis) utility, I'd say XWE runs pretty damn fine.

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sargebaldy said:

heh, i can't get it working on my computer on xp. just blanks out the screen when i try. i think slayer` is having that same problem on xp.

Geez, it does that to me in '98.

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ReX said:

How many large levels have you made with XWE?

Let RTDScout be the judge of whether or not XWE works fine for his purposes. For a free (note use of underlined word, with bold face added for emphasis) utility, I'd say XWE runs pretty damn fine.

Nice way to avoid the question. I was not the one doing the recommending and one would think that would/should be relevant? However, I've tested XWE and all other editors seeing what parts make sense and what parts do not (for example, I got the map button scrolling from DMAPEDIT and the original edge scrolling from DEU). On large levels XWE chugs like an old VB app - that's a fact. Posted that once before, thinking it was a problem with PASCAL. Csabo said it wasn't optimized. It's slow.

Don't care if it's free (bold face) or not. A person should be told realistic issues, not just hype. All the other "free" editors listed are much faster than XWE and their interface is easier/faster.

Don't make this into a emotional battle - just state the actual truth about what one runs into. For example, in the nonfree (no bold face) world, people complain about the DeePsea shareware limits. For Windeu it's the crashes one lives with. For WADED, the memory limit and so on. This is no different Rex.

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deep said:

Blah, blah.

There you go again. It's a widely-shared opinion that you're not the most impartial person to recommend a DooM editing utility. Look carefully at what I said: "It's versatile, it works just fine with ZDooM, and it's free." I did not imply that it was a perfect editor or even the best around. And I certainly did not compare it with DeepSea or any other editor. In fact, I have publicly pointed Csabo to issues that he needs to address (in addition to sending him details via email). So people who read the editing forum posts carefully know that I recognize the limitations of XWE.

Your interpretation of "it works just fine" seems to be that it must be lightning fast, have a user interface that can read the user's mind, and be perfect in every way. When I look around, I don't see a single editor (note use of underlined and bold face type for emphasis, as it is likely to have a personal significance for you) that fits that bill.

RTDScout was not asking for the perfect editor, he was asking for a free alternative (or certainly one that is more affordable than DeepSea). So, just because XWE has issues it must mean to you that no one should ever suggest people try it. WadAuthor has limitations, yet I highly recommend it. Heck, I even recommend DeepSea all the time, even though I (and others) have issues with it.

You probably consider your critiques of other editors as a public service, and to a large degree they are. It's all in the delivery, dude. As I've said before, every time you open your mouth (figuratively speaking) about other editors you sound mean-minded and crassly self-promoting, no matter that what you say usually makes sense.

Btw, if you're intent on starting a flame war with me about this issue, I'd like to remind you of what happened in December on the New DooM forums. May the combatant with no vested (and financial) interest in any DooM editing utility win. Heh.

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Now boys, play nice. If DeePsea was free, we wouldn't be having this argument.

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On large levels XWE chugs like an old VB app - that's a fact.

"deep fact", perhaps.

The slowness comes from drawing things on the screen, it has nothing to do with large levels. It will be slow on a relatively small level if it has tons of linedefs and/or things. However, if you zoom in 'enough', it scrolls nicely on any system.

I've just loaded up Vrack2 in XWE. I'm pretty sure that counts as a big level. At 10% zoom, when almost all of the level is visible, it's not that fast. You don't edit the levels at that zoom, though. At 50% zoom (or higher) it scrolls smoothly without flickering. I have a 1.6GHz Pentium 4. I realize that many people have slower computers. My point is, on fast systems XWE is fast.

Chugs like an old VB app. I think you and I both know that a statement like that is far from a fact. (Maybe you really do think that it is a fact, but then again, your idea of an old VB app could be just about anything.)

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When I try to run it, I get an Input Signal out of range error. Any way to fix this?

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RTDscout said:

When I try to run it, I get an Input Signal out of range error. Any way to fix this?

Er, you mean ZETH, right? Probably trying to set a display mode your monitor doesn't support. Try changing the resolution in ZETH.INI. If that doesn't work, it's most likely the same problem I'm having with it in XP.

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Csabo said:

"deep fact", perhaps.

Nope. I use DOOMCAD as a reference point (there aren't that many VB doom editors around). My test machine is a PIII 1 gig, XP 512mb - should work ok on that.

You know guys if you wouldn't freaking flip a groin everything simple facts are stated (flame imagination sensitivity), a lot of little things would be easier to talk about. That includes other posters. They see something like this where I get jumped on and then you sure as heck aren't going to get honest feedback.

The comment about the past makes me laugh. I thought that thread was funny REX and had a good time. Funny how you twist things. I always have a good time:)

Too bad. There are some other things I never tell because of the unrealistic reaction (not DeePsea facts, a lame thing to say) and you just encouraged me not to tell you. You'll find out sooner or later.

The slowness comes from drawing things on the screen, it has nothing to do with large levels. It will be slow on a relatively small level if it has tons of linedefs and/or things. However, if you zoom in 'enough', it scrolls nicely on any system.

Not true. It's very slow. Let's put it this way, if one is an experienced level editor the reaction time is quite noticable.

Do you really think I didn't ZDOOM in? ALL editors are faster when they zoom in, that's a given. However, when one edits, it's quite common to zoom in/out/scroll repeatedly, especially when the levels get large. As I said, you admitted to me earlier that it was slow and said it was because of coding inefficiencies since I thought it was a PASCAL issue. Now you are trying to justify it.

My point is, on fast systems XWE is fast.

That's like saying when it doesn't rain you don't get wet. I used the system above as a high end target. Many machines fall below this. A reasonable target is a PIII400 or so.

"works fine" (despite REX's attempt to defend) means that people actually use it to make advanced levels (excluding yourself).

I stand by what I posted for speed and useability issues. Despite the use of bold letter and "free", my point is that REX doesn't use it. He did not like me pointing that out, but that is a relevant issue.

Whether I'm biased or not is also a underhanded way to argue. Of course I am. And so are you and everyone who likes whatever they like. Who cares. Actually Windeu would be pretty cool if only someone had taken the time to clean up the bugs.

Btw REX your delivery is hardly the epitome of style - especially when you make stuff up - learn to relax and take things in a more objective manner (and cut the cheap shots - they tickle).

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Not true. It's very slow.

What kind of an argument is that? What can one say to this? Should I say: "Yes, it is true."? That doesn't go anywhere. I wrote XWE, I should know. I took the time to see where the time is spent within that critical function (I call it MapRefresh). It's drawing too many things on the screen that's slow, not large levels.

What I said before was the same: "but the map refresh is definitely slow if you have too many things on the screen". I'm still saying that, and I'm not trying to justify anything.

The next version will improve this with two things: when scrolling, only the map outline will be drawn. Less time spent drawing speeds things up a lot. Second, when objects are highlighted, right now the whole MapRefresh routine is called, which redraws everything. Instead only the changed objects should be redrawn.

I accept and respect your opinion that you think "on large levels XWE chugs like an old VB app", and that to you that's stating a simple fact. Let's leave it at that.

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My comment wasn't really related to "drawing too many things". How do I know? If you delete ALL the things in VRACK2 there's not much difference. Try it. Keys pile up in typematic mode (even on much smaller levels). Hence I know for sure that large levels are a problem (even with no things showing).

IOW, even though drawing ALL the things on the screen makes a difference (of course), there's something else wrong. Just do some comparisons to other editors. I am running at 1280 x 1024, GF2Ultra.

Also if you look at the time it takes to "find" an object, you'll also see something is wrong (and that's nothing to do with screen resolution).

There seems to be a speed problem in anything that takes a lot of repeated code. Is it PASCAL or code? Could just be the compiler version you are using. To me it has academic interest.

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I'm afraid I wasn't clear enough. I used the word "things" for two different entities, hence our misunderstanding. I meant things in general, not Doom defined map things.

Deleting the Doom defined map things (enemies, weapons, ammo, etc) won't have much impact. It's the grid, floor gird, the line end vertexes, and the line direction lines that can be skipped for a much faster render - for scrolling.

So here it is, for the third time, this time hopefully correct. The slowness comes from drawing too much stuff on the screen, and has nothing to do with the size of the levels.

Delphi's compiler does a very good job. The loops are blazing fast, and one can always use ASM to finetune things. There are lots of things in XWE that could be better, but I choose 'easy to code' versus 'fast'. Perhaps the only way to convince you will be to just do it, and come out with a faster version.

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RTDscout said:

So, someone, please tell that there's other editors for ZDoom out there....

I guess you don't want to know about DeepSea, which is the most expensive DooM editor available, and which costs additional money for periodic updates. Oh sure, the creator is a monopolistic tyrant (heh!) who can't stand to see competition, especially from free DooM editing software, and is quick to point out the flaws in them without the least bit of tact. (Bet he freelances as a personal injury attorney, aka ambulance-chaser.) But he promises that you'll never have to look at another editor again, especially as you fork out your money year after year for needed upgrades. (I wonder if this guy works for Microsoft Corp. on the side.)

About the attorney comment I made before, I didn't really mean it. I think he'd make a terrible attorney, as he doesn't really pay attention to what people are saying or have said. (Or maybe that's a hallmark of a successful attorney? It's certainly a signature of a politico.) In a court of law the judge would constantly be reminding him to listen carefully. Instead he falls back on specious arguments, and tends to make it a personal issue. At that point, of course, everybody else concerned makes it a personal issue too. (Guilty as charged. Heh.)

In his past life the guy must have been a bulldog. He certainly is tenacious, but in an asinine sort of way. Kind of like a camel that refuses to get off the road, even though there's a convoy of Abrams tanks heading its way. He refuses to yield a point, even after it has been explained and clarified to him from every possible angle.

Also, have you considered that ...... What's that you say? You're not interested in hearing about DeepSea, as you specifically stated that you wanted ZDooM-compatible alternatives to DeepSea? You didn't specifically ask for alternatives that would build you the perfect ZDooM wad (and make you rich, famous, and handsome at the same time)? You say you didn't ask for a critique of suggested alternatives either? Silly me. I should learn to read things more carefully. Perhaps one day I too can aspire to be an ambulance-chasing personal injury attorney. Or work for Microsoft Corp.

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It's certainly a signature of a politico

Now that I think about it, it strikes me what a badass politician he'd be.

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deep said:

"works fine" (despite REX's attempt to defend) means that people actually use it to make advanced levels (excluding yourself).

Last time I checked, "works fine" means that it is usable and supports the necessary functions. A guy has a 1991 Toyota Camry that "works fine". It means that it will get him from home to work and back without a high probablility of breaking down and leaving him stranded on the side of the road. It does not mean that he can use it in the Indy 500 (example of an advanced use of a car).

He did not like me pointing that out, but that is a relevant issue.

"I've never ever underestimated anything. Why did you kill your dog? Get the drift? Don't accuse me of something I've not done. That pisses me off." Does that sound familiar?

Whether I'm biased or not is also a underhanded way to argue. Of course I am. And so are you and everyone who likes whatever they like. Who cares.

I didn't just say you were biased, I also said you were blatantly self-serving, often at the expense of other editors.

Btw REX your delivery is hardly the epitome of style

The issue is not one of style; it is one of tact and courtesy. My posts are typically courteous and respectful. No one can accuse you of that.

especially when you make stuff up

Examples, please.

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I waited a bit to see what floats to the top. Same o same o. Some just can't take remarks for what they are - an objective criticism in speed and usability. Look back at my posts. I said DETH and ZETH work (both FREE) and merely disagreed that XWE "works fine". How silly of me to think this was is open forum.

I'd make a piss poor politician because I say it like it is:) It has nothing to do with tact and everything to do with a frank discussion (something in very short supply here).

Self-serving? I doubt it. In fact, it is useful information to a developer, just as it is to know how it runs on other systems. If I can't make an objective observation without getting jumped on - not my problem, it's yours. Too bad.

As far as "slowness" read my post very carefully about selecting objects (maybe I need to bold face everything too<g.). That has absolutely nothing to do with screen I/O. Think about it. Who isn't doing the reading?

Usability means being actually being able to use something without undue effort. To make a VALID example using the exact same car example: You can use DEU to make levels (or DETH) and both are "old". Why? Because they give very fast response and have an easy to use dialog system. A 1991 car isn't really very different from a 2003 car is it? Let's go back in time to make the example valid or were you implying that something was already dated before it's time?

Speed and ease of use are probably the 2 cornerstones of any editor. To go back to your car example, what if you use a 1915 Model-T? The controls are way different than what you see now, a bitch to start and so on. Plus it's dog slow. IOW, it may get you around the block for a demo ride, but I don't think it would serve to get you from home to your work.

It's has nothing to do with FREE, it has everything to do with usability. If it really "works fine" - it actually gets you from your house to your work.

Your posts immediately impune my character and you try just about every dirty trick there is to try to justify you actions (the signs of a "politico", the very thing you tried to slime me with). Why Rex? Because you can't take any sort of disagreement in perspective? Crazy? Not my problem.

I'm talking about a program, you immediately directly attack my character and take things out of context. Nice? Making stuff up must be a religious thing - impossible to make zealots see anything. Nobody can accuse you of being able to have a frank discussion:)

Reminds me of the needless ZDOOM vs LEGACY vs JDOOM vs ... port wars. Stupid because it's all emotion vs some objective reasons that various ports may or may not work for someone.

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Jack, we're going around in circles here. I have always maintained (and publicly stated on many occasions) that you are very technically qualified. My disagreements with you have not been about the mechanics or the inner workings of a DooM editor. Indeed, I'll be the first to admit that my programming knowledge, particularly as it relates to DooM editors falls well short. But then, I don't argue about stuff as it relates to programming, do I?

What I do have a problem with is:

    1. Your tactlessness (sometimes bordering on rudeness) when it comes to discussing editors other than DeepSea.
    2. Your unwillingess to stay on topic during a discussion, particularly one that involves a disagreement with your point of view.
    3. Your tendency to put down other editors, while promoting DeepSea.
Yes, these are free and open forums, and you're entitled to air your opinion as much as the next guy. If you'd only do it in a less combative manner I wouldn't get on your case.

About the post in which I "impuned" (sic) your character, I was merely trying to make a point while building a caricature, rather than being insulting. [Fine Print]No similarities to any person whether living or deceased were intended, and none should hereinafter be inferred.[/Fine Print]

Bottom line: You ignore me, I ignore you. You challenge me in a hostile fashion, I don't back down. You disagree with me in a reasonable fashion, I respond in similar reasonable fashion. (For proof of all of this, just read through these and other forums where I've posted.)

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ReX said:
1. Your tactlessness (sometimes bordering on rudeness) when it comes to discussing editors other than DeepSea.

Bullshit REX. You have tact? Very funny. About as rude, tactless and false as it gets.

Read very carefully what I wrote and what YOU wrote. Again, I talked about a PROGRAM - YOU talked about a PERSON. Pretty goddamn simple to tell the difference (turn off selective reading). Plainly put, you totally screwed up a simple observation - because it was DIFFERENT from yours. It was a FACTUAL observation that you wanted to slug it out over. You'll always lose a debate when the facts are simple to check.

2. Your unwillingess to stay on topic during a discussion, particularly one that involves a disagreement with your point of view.

Bullshit again. Look who went "off topic" and resorted to personal attacks because you had NOTHING else to say? Nice try Rex, but no cigar.

I can state my view and clearly (as you acknowledge) I know a bit more about what's going on. Your advice was questionable for the original topic.

3. Your tendency to put down other editors, while promoting DeepSea.

More bullshit. No promotion, no put down. I explained that XWE is not ready for use and why (to a person that's looking for advice). I would recommend WA and ZETH. Who has built a large level using XWE (excluding the author)? That's a definitive argument. Show me the money.

You know REX, if you wouldn't do this in such a combative and personal manner, this would be over in a heart beat (your kind of tactics can always be reversed - silly and not productive). You still haven't made a case for why I was wrong. Stick to OBJECTIVE facts. Prove to me that it's not slow and that someone actually uses it for level editing.

Fact is Csabo acknowledged it was slow unless zoomed in. Fact is that zooming in/out and scrolling speeds are very important when editing. Sure he can fix these and I hope he found the info useful.

If you are making a point (and not insulting), then pigs fly ("fine print" is bullshit - YOU know it - I know it. Cut the excuses and be responsible for what you did. So either you are incredibly insensitive or so into yourself that you can't see your comments for what they are. If so - this is a typical endless slag post where you will keep trying to insist that nothing personal was posted - even though it's there for everyone to see.

Imputing (not impune -my mistake) is exactly what you deliberately did.

Bottom line: You ignore me, I ignore you. You challenge me in a hostile fashion, I don't back down.

Rex, what a bully thing to say. You actually think that makes sense? LOL. Hostile is in the eyes of the beholder.

I didn't "challenge" you. You just can't take any kind of objective criticism without taking it personally. YOUR problem, not mine. Be honest with yourself first and then come back. Don't attempt to justify with excuses. Learn to debate like a mature individual and not take it into the gutter. Of course this will set off all your hostile reactions "what me not mature". Think about it before you post.

Btw, this thread by itself contradicts the very thing you claim. You are not reasonable and have a thin a skin. OTOH, Csabo is quite reasonable and explained what he meant (although he missed my example that ignored the screen). Just a slight jab, but hey it was reasonable. I suppose this thread will probably go into the toilet since I've never been able to stop this kind of bullshit - oh well:)

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