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Goat

Is this justifiable?

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Hope this hasnt been posted on here, but i looked at all the threads for june 29th (when the article was released) on up until now in this forum, and i didnt see anyhting. i found the link on another thread, and decided to post it here to see what you guys think since you guys would probably have some decent arguments for and agaisnt it.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,987172,00.html

yeah i know its a long article, but you have to read it all to understand it. and i find the last paragraph to be particularly disturbing, perhaps the most disturbing part of all.

you have to stop and ask yourself after reading it... is it the right thing to do to an "out-of-line" teenager?

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You're right... this is horribly distrubing. I mean... I can see the need for some sort of program to help teens who are completely out of control, but something like this is not the solution, and, from the sound of things, the people being sent here are not even close to being completely out of control.

And think about it... this place is leaving such an imprint on the minds of the kids being forced to go there... how do you think they are going to treat their own kids when they become parents?

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"Other students were sent here for wearing inappropriate clothes, using bad language, or hanging around with the wrong sort of friends."
[sarcasm]
those seem like valid enough reasons to send your children away for years on end. drugs dont even seem like a reason.
[/sarcasm]

perhaps MURDER or RAPE or physically beating your parents, but not simple defiance. but we all know that murderers and rapists go to prison, not this place.

this is just too far over the line to be considered punishment. it seems the same punishment, perhaps worse, as the solitary confinement situations seen in supermax prisons and whatnot.

i think this is just some lame ass punishment rich parents give their kids. parents who dont want any part of being parents, parents who Fail It miserably, and who parents who have given up all hope at being a parent.

druggies and kids who hang out with the "wrong" crowd should not be sent here. druggies should be sent to rehab and detox and shit, and kids who hang out with the "wrong" crowd (whats so wrong about the crowd in the first place) should have a nice talk with mom and dad about their friends and see if they can come to some kind of understanding.

now, i have never been a bad kid. i suppose i cant really sympathize with this kind of situation but i can have my opinion. i dont know the extent of the problems these kids have, but i doubt it can really justify this kind of thing. i honestly believe this guy is a nutcase and that the parents have no idea of what kind of shit is going on. the facility and its head have left literally no room for bad publicity to get out, even from word of mouth of the kids, calling it manipulation. that is the kind of shit youd expect from a lunatic. this is fucking bullshit. (ive gone this far without cussing, what a record)

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People who send their kids to places like this shouldn't have been allowed to have kids in the first place. I say kidnap the parents and send them to an identicle camp.

Hmmm, I wonder how long it is before these kids start turning into serial killers / snipers / etc... This is just wrong on so many levels.

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No. I read this article when it was in the paper and was thinking of posting something about it. My initial reaction was "oh they're probably total delinquents and deserve what they get". But when I read the article and found out the kind of total bullshit reasons parents sent their kids there for, I couldn't believe that this stuff is allowed to happen.

Its a disgusting indictment of the attitude of some modern parents that following a divorce, they send their kids there for "not loving them enough" and suchlike. These kids are not improved as people, they're simply conditioned to act in a way that will please their parents, it makes me sick just reading about it.

The fact is such a camp would not be allowed to operate in America or in Britain. It would be illegal here, and it should be illegal to send your kids there even if it is based abroad.

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It's a great program on paper, but of course any kind of program like this also opens many doors for abuse by staff members and other program officials when put to practice. Another problem is that it is a program to be used (like the article says) as a last resort for kids who have serious behavioral issues, and a lot of times the wrong kids get caught up in the program. Not to say it couldn't be beneficial, but it is somewhat like using a block of C-4 to kill a spider. I do think these programs are radically beneficial when properly applied to the proper people, and if I were able to fully trust the TB staff to carry out this program to the letter, I'd support it. That said, there's too much potential danger of program abuse and misapplication, thus the only way I'd ever trust it to be run properly is if it were entirely supervised by me. Since that's not going to happen anytime soon, I would at least hope the facility comes to be monitored by higher-level government officials to prevent staff abuse.

Of course, the program also needs to extend to parents, but that's a separate issue entirely.

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That is fucking horrible. Those are some terrible fucking parents that don't deserve the fucking blood in their own veins.

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I remember reading about these places a while ago, its horrible..there was a mission in my old anarchy doom TC where you had to bust someone out, and the people that run these shitholes certianly deserve a bullet in the brain for real, if they have any brains that is..i think one girl got sent there after her parents found out she was a lesbian, and we all know what i think about that (it involves dart guns and bleach)

Oh well, its not set in america, or in modern times, but maybe a secret level in gaydoom would be in order (complete with guys in full riot gear armed with nightsticks going "we want to help you", before you knife the fuckers)

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deathbringer said:

. . . i think one girl got sent there after her parents found out she was a lesbian . . .

Like "But I'm a Cheerleader" if you've ever seen that movie.

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No but i keep hearing about it, apparenly someone's friend watched it with her, and was dissapointed the girl didnt "turn straight" at the end *rolls eyes*

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Rellik said:

People who send their kids to places like this shouldn't have been allowed to have kids in the first place.


All you need to know regarding shit like this.

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This is pretty ridiculous....NO kid should EVER go to a place like this unless they have done any (or all) of the following

-Murdered their parents or members of their immediate family
-Killed or Raped several people, inside or outside their family
-Used a weapon of some sort to destroy their house, a place of buisness, or other buildings
-Commited several crimes

This camp is a good idea for the severely messed up, but not for minor things....if kids who have barely done things to earn them a few years in prison...then NO they shouldn't go.

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That if just fucked up, id flip out and kill them all I swear, I dont care if they would beat me or not would have to kill em all.

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there's an issue of the invisibles with a place that is so like this it's eerie.

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People who know history can see a very obvious parallel but i wouldnt want to violate you-know-whos law so...

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We have a few "organizations" like this in Utah and elsewhere in the Southwest. There are a couple dead kids on their hands, but AFAIK they're still in operation.

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At the point when they started talking about lying the kids face down, I became extremely delirious with rage.

Look at their system of academics as well. No qualified educators work there. They just have the answers to a prescribed set of questions. The mind needs more than facts to function as anything more than a flesh-computer.

Total conditioning of a person starts small. Tell them to raise their hand. If they ask you why, smack their hand with a flayed-tip bamboo stick or whatever, make it sting like fuck, maybe even cut. You tell them again, they ask again, you hit again... assuming they're "quick learners," they'll raise their hand next time. So what, right? WELL, you have to start small... Eventually you've got them, without question, jumping on one foot, standing on their heads, doing cartwheels, killing people for you, running a nice clean 4 minute mile, paying their taxes... Huh? What? Killing people? Oops, you weren't supposed to remember that possibility as demonstrated in all those sci-fi shows. *distracts the masses with blinking lights and shiny things and shrouds it all in secrecy*

During all this (Pavlovian?) conditioning, they're getting a false education as well. Oh, that's not to say that the facts are not true, but the truest of facts can indicate anything that the person spewing them out wants them to.

Who needs an army of clones when this is legally so much easier?

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Ultraviolet said:

At the point when they started talking about lying the kids face down, I became extremely delirious with rage.

Look at their system of academics as well. No qualified educators work there. They just have the answers to a prescribed set of questions. The mind needs more than facts to function as anything more than a flesh-computer.

Total conditioning of a person starts small. Tell them to raise their hand. If they ask you why, smack their hand with a flayed-tip bamboo stick or whatever, make it sting like fuck, maybe even cut. You tell them again, they ask again, you hit again... assuming they're "quick learners," they'll raise their hand next time. So what, right? WELL, you have to start small... Eventually you've got them, without question, jumping on one foot, standing on their heads, doing cartwheels, killing people for you, running a nice clean 4 minute mile, paying their taxes... Huh? What? Killing people? Oops, you weren't supposed to remember that possibility as demonstrated in all those sci-fi shows. *distracts the masses with blinking lights and shiny things and shrouds it all in secrecy*

During all this (Pavlovian?) conditioning, they're getting a false education as well. Oh, that's not to say that the facts are not true, but the truest of facts can indicate anything that the person spewing them out wants them to.

Who needs an army of clones when this is legally so much easier?


last point first - with the clones, you don't have to worry (as much) about different genetics wreaking havoc with things. you know exactly what to expect there (for the most part). like that really makes a difference, though.

as far as the bit on facts goes, people will (usually) ignore facts that don't fit into their nice cozy world view. go figure.

btw, ultraviolet, have you seen my copy of "brainwashing for dummies"? i seem to have misplaced it...

their "system of academics" is no different from public schools - aside from the educators not being qualified. what you describe there sounds eerily like standardized testing. makes me glad i didn't bother with high school beyond my freshman year.

finally, what we need is a board that decides who can and can't have children, and gives a decent selection of who can have children with whom (a little further out than arranged marriages, more like "these people are who we recommend, these are who we're like 'meh' about, and you cannot under any conditions have sex with these people or we will execute you"), though that'd piss off every american who thinks they're given the right to have sex with anyone who's willing.

cynicism (n.) - the last refuge of the revolutionaries before they actually start changing things.

*

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Yeah, I know, I was in public school, but I was actually allowed to go home and think for myself afterward.

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I posted an URL in another thread, forgot which, with links to all kinds of examples of America's fucked-up way to deal with teen problems, real or imagined.

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No it isn't. That is both retarded, and stupid. And also props to the fuckwits of parents that send the children there. If they can't sanely (spelling) handle there children with the proper attention they need, they should have thought about that before poking Mr Wiener in the bun.

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Hell, my Grandmom went to boarding school, and saw her mom once or twice. The first time, she went into the room with her and had tea (she's English) and chatted, and when her mom left, she asked the staff who the kind lady was. She didn't recognize her own mom (or mum. like I said she's English). Anyway, these things are just the rich and well-off side of societies equivelent to dumping your baby in the trash, if you're broke, in my opinion.

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That place is one of the sickest things i ever read about. The manager is obviosly mentally ill and I don't see how this bullshit could ever help anyone. These people are ALL LESS THAN TWENTY YEARS OLD! Prison would actually be better for those poor people than going to this godawful shithole of a 'camp'

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[sickmind mode]My parents used to lock me in the closet with water and a small pitchfork to hunt rats and eat them. Now I'm a pretty balanced freak.[/sickmind mode]

Back to reality...

It's a terrible way to deal with the problem, you can't try to bury an antisocial personality.

It sounds like something out of A Clockwork Orange.

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