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Burnov

Which doom source port is the most edit-friendly?

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I'm in the market for a good doom source port that's easily edited... as in dehacked-type editing. I love doomsday but there are just certain things you can't edit with dehacked patches such as hitpoint values for players or other things... so it's basically useless to me. I specifically want to crank the hitpoints for players down to 25 or so, like in marine doom. I find there's just not enough excitement and challenge otherwise. Anyhow. If anyone would has any ideas for me I'd be appreciative. I would on a subsidiary note prefer something graphically appealing. But even if the port still looks like old vanilla doom. It's better than nothing.

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Fuck. I'm beginning to thing no doom game out there fully supports dehacked patches. I don't know what that scripting shit is, but unless it's simple to do and it can allow for greater gameplay customization by means of weapons and entities... It's quite useless to me. As zdoom is shaping up to be. Again. Fired up another source port of doom... health of player set to 25... my health is at 100 when I start... fucking thing. Doom is not fun when you can take 50 million bullets and live.

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Burnov said:

Fuck. I'm beginning to thing no doom game out there fully supports dehacked patches. I don't know what that scripting shit is, but unless it's simple to do and it can allow for greater gameplay customization by means of weapons and entities... It's quite useless to me. As zdoom is shaping up to be. Again. Fired up another source port of doom... health of player set to 25... my health is at 100 when I start... fucking thing. Doom is not fun when you can take 50 million bullets and live.


uh, perhaps you're not doing it correctly. Here's a 25% health start deh patch:

Patch File for DeHackEd v3.0

# Note: Use the pound sign ('#') to start comment lines.

Doom version = 19
Patch format = 6


Misc 0
Initial Health = 25
that will work with any port that supports dehacked patches which I believe is all of the major ones except jdoom (but jdoom has game dlls so dehacked support is sort of irrelevant except for lack of compatability with wads with patches). Not sure about Legacy and edge, but with most ports you need to load it one of two ways: whatever.exe -deh dehackedpatch.deh or import it into a wad as a lump called DEHACKED and then load the wad with -file. I'm fairly certain Legacy is exactly the same as that (perhaps someone could verify) but I have no idea about edge.

so yeah you were probably doing it wrong.

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Burnov said:

Doom is not fun when you can take 50 million bullets and live.


-skill 5

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Yup Legacy can load them -deh <file> or in a wad. If it's in a wad you can even load it after the game's started via the console.

As for easiest to edit EDGE might be what you're looking for. Unfortunately it's got a pretty small community built around it and has been kind of stagnant development wise for a while now. Other than that I'd recommend just trying them all out since they are all so different and all have many pro's and con's.

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Are you guys nuts???!!!! EDGE is EXACTLY what this guy's looking for! How could you even THINK to suggest anything else?! Damn!

Ahem. Yeh, EDGE very editable.

Unfortunately it's got a pretty small community built around it and has been kind of stagnant development wise for a while now.


Uh, why does this matter? But like he said, try 'em all out. It's not like they cost you anything. :|

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Grimm said:

It's not like they cost you anything. :|

Unless you're still using a modem, in which case they'll add to your phone bill.

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NiGHTMARE said:

Unless you're still using a modem, in which case they'll add to your phone bill.


I dunno about the uk, but here most phone companies have a regional calling plan where you pay a flat fee every month for local calls no matter how many you make or how long they are. So downloading a a bunch of files doesn't add to anything heh

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Yep, it's different for the UK, and probably quite a few other countries too. Here we pay per minute (with BT at least, I'm not sure about NTL, Telewest, etc, but they're probably the same). Of course I'm on cable, which does have a fixed monthly price.

I forgot to mention the ISPs too. While most have fixed monthly rates, they're usually limited, meaning you have to pay extra if you go over it.

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ugh, that's no fun, even our dialup isps are a flat monthy fee (usually around 20 - 25 per month). it used to be the other way, like you guys have it now, and actually with the phone bills and hourly isp charges it was prolly cheaper or equal in price to get cable *shrug*

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Grimm said:

Are you guys nuts???!!!! EDGE is EXACTLY what this guy's looking for! How could you even THINK to suggest anything else?! Damn!

Ahem. Yeh, EDGE very editable.



Uh, why does this matter? But like he said, try 'em all out. It's not like they cost you anything. :|



EDGE simply means that lesser people will play it. That's reason enough not to recommend it.
So far EDGE has turned out some great weapon MODs but a frightening small amount of levels. I don't know why but there has to be a reason for this...

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EDGE simply means that lesser people will play it. That's reason enough not to recommend it.


Uh, why should that matter? Maybe if you were trying make money it would matter, but last time I checked, I made Doom levels mainly for myself, and so it wouldn't really matter whether or not less people played. Releasing 'em to the public allows other people to share in the joy (heh), but if they decide for whatever reason not to download EDGE so they can play it, then screw them.

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I think Zdoom is the most user-friendly because even if you don't know how to script, you can adjust Zdoom's settings to make it run great on any computer.

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Grimm said:
Uh, why should that matter?


It matters but only inasmuch as an assmunch who makes WADs using features according to how popular they are produces crap.

But also it's amusing to see someone tell people to not recommend something cause it's supposedly not popular... I mean, if people listened to such advice in any degree the engine would not just be used only by a few but by practically no one, as hearsay is a good way, if not the main way, of promotion for an add-on... if no one mentions it, how will people use it?

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cyber-menace said:

I think Zdoom is the most user-friendly because even if you don't know how to script, you can adjust Zdoom's settings to make it run great on any computer.


This thread is all about how easy editing is with certain source ports, speed is not an issue.

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I would suggest ZDoom because:

ZDoom/Hexen format allows for tids and dormant monsters. That means you can have certain monsters do anything you want. Monsters can also do things when they die, like run scripts or drop keys. Also, anything takes arguments. That includes doors, lifts, platforms, elevators, etc. No more "slow door," or "fast door," you make a door however fast you want.

ACS allows you to do anything in a level you want at any time. Things can trigger scripts and run them here. You can do very crazy things from constant fireball spawners like in ROTT to the effect I did in my volcano ZooM map. You can do really neat lighting effects or print things on screen for missions. The sky is the limit.

ZDoom also has almost full Boom and DeHacked support as well. It also has bex support. Both DeHacked and bex have been extended to add more features.

Then there's the new lumps, like ANIMDEFS, DECALDEF, DECORATE, KEYCONF, MAPINFO, SNDINFO, SNDSEQ, etc.

ANIMDEFS allows you to animate textures or even warp flats which is very useful and more realistic in my opinion. Animated textures can have as many frames as you like. I believe this can also make switches, but I'm not sure. If not, ACS always can.

DECALDEF changes the decals in Doom (or Heretic or Hexen). You can add new graphics for your weapons to make. Hitscan and projectiles can make whatever decals you give them, or none at all if you like.

DECORATE is probably one of the strongest lumps. You can add in an infiniate amount of scenery using it. Each piece can have its own frames (like NAMIA0). The frames can be fullbright and last however long you want. Randy has also added DECORATE projectiles, fake pickups, and breakable scenery. Projectiles are VERY useful because you can make them do so many things. Breakable scenery like in Hexen is also fun to play with. Fake pickups are particulary useful because they run scripts and you can make them do whatever you want from there.

KEYCONF is pretty cool too because you can change/add/remove weapons. You can also MOVE weapons. ZooM has done this by moving the BFG to slot 5, right after the Rocket Launcher. Not only that but you can add other binds to do pretty much anything.

MAPINFO allows you to name your levels without having to replace the original name graphics. You can also set new skies per level, new music, and other options. Each level can go wherever you want (MAP01 can go to MAP05) and you can add hubs like in Hexen. Not only that but now you can add new episodes so you don't replace old ones. You can make FRED01 the start map of your new episode and people can still pick Hell on Earth if they want.

SNDINFO and SNDSEQ are for adding in new sounds. SNDINFO is particularly useful for adding or referencing other things. I did some work with a new chainsaw and made certain sound strings reference other sound files, thereby overwriting the old ones, so I didn't have to include new sound files that are identical to old ones. Also SNDINFO allows for multiple sounds on one object. For example, the grenades in ZooM have 4 bouncing sounds and 2 explosion sounds.

For a glance at some neat ZDoom stuff, go here:

http://xfury.net/ZooM

And you should also look up the ZDoom Scrapbook here on the forums.

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The fact that EDGE isn't really that supported is a legitimate issue for a couple reasons. The engine could be abandoned at any time which means no fixs / new features that might be neccesary, and if he's gonna want some feedback on his abilities it'll be much harder to get. Some people want to make stuff that'll actually get played by the masses. If that's teh case here, I'd actually suggest you make levels using only BOOM features as then almost everyone in the community will be able to try it out, and many probably will.

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It's still rediculous to care about things like that when the people who wouldn't play yer level simply wouldn't play it 'cause they don't feel like downloading something! As I said before, screw them! EDGE is obviously a dead port, but that doesn't mean it's crap. I haven't heard of it being particularly buggy, and there's still enough people on the EDGE (heh) to get feedback. EDGE has two very important new features, unlimited EXE and 3D floors. The only important new feature it's lacking is scripting. And if scripting's your beef, why not Legacy? Legacy has scripting and 3D floors, and enough people still use it. And unless ToxicFluff has been bullshitting us, you can do some pretty damn cool stuff with fraggglescript, too. So, moo.

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I think ZDoom is the most edited-for, but lately I've went back to the oldsk00l shizzle and have been doing vanilla Doom and Doom2 maps.

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Rellik said:
If that's teh case here, I'd actually suggest you make levels using only BOOM features as then almost everyone in the community will be able to try it out, and many probably will.


I'd say that using Boom features and nothing else is pretty pointless. A number of engines don't support them (Doom and Jdoom for instance, which are popular enough) and, more importantly, they really don't add much more than gimmicks over standard DOOM functionality.

If you want advice, either do a plain WAD (under Doom's limits, or breaking them, according to your tastes) or use advanced engine specifics according to your preferences for a less standard but more editing-feature rich WAD. ZDoom is probably a good choice due to its many features, use Legacy if you want to play around with 3D stuff, or maybe EDGE for a TC.

But seriously, anyone adjusting his or her editing choices (short of small variations that come without much effort) to what someone else might want to play seriously needs guidance (actually, that's evidenced by such a person's need to do what others want anyway.)

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myk said:

I'd say that using Boom features and nothing else is pretty pointless. A number of engines don't support them (Doom and Jdoom for instance, which are popular enough) and, more importantly, they really don't add much more than gimmicks over standard DOOM functionality.


Thats nonsense! If you don't believe me just check out the excellent 'Phobos: Anomaly Reborn' which is probably the best showcase WAD for using Boom features. There are others which also make good use of Boom features and in no way they are mere gimmicks.
However, if one decides to use an advanced engine, I suggest to go all the way and use ZDoom. It has all of Boom's features and lots more.

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I'd have to agree, if you just want to make a WAD with cool stuff in it, go with ZDoom or Legacy. ZDoom is easier to make cool stuff with "right out of the box", but prepare to learn scripting to any really neat stuff in either. They also both use two different scripting launguages, so . . . :(

But I think what you might be looking for is EDGE, if you really wanna be able to customize it.

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They also both use two different scripting launguages, so . . . :(


Soon Legacy will have both Fragglescript and ACS. :)

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Grimm said:

But I think what you might be looking for is EDGE, if you really wanna be able to customize it.



You seem to like EDGE very much don't you? ;-)


There are 2 types of 'editing friendly':

1. You want to change the monsters and weapons into something really different. If so, then EDGE may be the right choice although the risk that EDGE really dies is rather high.

2. You want to do cool stuff in your level without too much work. For this ZDoom clearly is the best choice. For this EDGE is far too limited in my opinion (as are most other ports.)

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