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Nick

Worried about Doom 3

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You must’ve discussed the matter a thousand times. I’ve not played Doom III yet and I know I won’t like it, I don’t like the screenshots, trailers and whatever. I read everywhere about the tech features of D3’s engine but Doom is nothing about high technology. It’s an ambience, a feeling. I like it and I still play it because it’s amazingly simple. I fear Doom III will be an enhanced ersatz of Quake III featuring some more polygons and hi-res textures. I fear it will be another Daikatana.

Today it’s very hard to enter the FPS genre which is overcrowded by hundreds of ‘doom-likes’. Id’s exhuming the very name ‘Doom’ sounds an incredibly safe marketing device to make a game that sells.

I wonder whether they’ll respect Doom’s original atmosphere. I just hope they won’t ‘blacken’ the name too much. You all have great hopes about D3, I’m sorry to be so pessimistic… it’s cos I’ve played Doom too much.

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For me, really. I just wish I never heard of doom 3, so that I would not be interested in it. I have no idea if it will be good or not, but ever since I first heard about it, I always thought "oh no".
Some things that are great should be left as is. Doom was a great game, but that is all the success of doom 3 is dependent on. Will people still accept such an old idea? Besides, who knows how people will react after being changed by half-life, whether or not it was for the best or not, that is up to you to decide.
Games are no longer games, but substitutes for reality, from which the idea of a game originated. The idea of being someone else is many people's dream; they are bored of their own simple lives... We were caught up in games that went more for fun than reality because of limitations in hardware.
What is better though? A game for fun, with little reality? Or a game that only puts you in a different world?
Depends on what you view as fun I suppose.

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Oh I'm not so touchy on this field. For me, Doom 2 had nothing of Doom 1's atmosphere, but it was good in its own way, though I was disappointed about the fact that it was really like the same game without improved graphics and new gameplay features.

What matters to me is that they reinvent the old concept, which so far, they have done in an imo excellent way by redesigning the old monsters so that they look at least a hundred times more terrifying to behold and redesigned the setting to 1) take place on Mars which makes a lot more sense and 2) to look a lot more realistic and badass.

In addition, they've also added a great atmosphere, which imo seems to be on par with the atmosphere in the old game - making lots of cramped corridors really enhances the scare factor.

Another thing, which I am far more worried about, is that they get the feel of killing monsters right. It should be meaty, messy and satisfying to kill the demons, which I hear people saying that it is (at least in the alpha) so that's good so far, but unfortunately, I've also heard that the shotgun does not hurl monsters off their feet like the old one used to do, which I find disheartening.

Apart from the shotgun thing, I'm confident that I'll be overly pleased about Doom 3.

Oh yeah and pardon me, but saying that Doom wasn't about technology is a big load of horsecrap to pour out of your mouth. Doom very much was a technical pinnacle back in its day, just like every other iD game has been. There was no way other games could render a world so realistically (and I'm using the term loosely here) and fast in the first person like the Doom engine could. I also remember finding the graphics stunning back then - just compare it to Wolfenstein 3d and consider that there was only a single year between the two games - now tell me that Doom wasn't a technical wonder!

And pardon me again, but saying that Doom 3 will be another Daikatana is imo a wildly exaggerated claim and saying that is like sticking a thorn into my eye (something that'll make me go ballistic, so please don't say that!).
I can think of a thousand reasons why your comparison with Daikatana is totally unjustified. Like: Very few people enjoyed Daikatana - Doom 3, however, will keep a lot of gamers entertained. Or: Doom 3 has the best concept ever devised, Daikatana's concept just plain sucks.

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Heh, you have a point. Games are supposed to be fun, above all else. One classic example is this really old game, I can't even remember the name, but the graphics were basically ASCII characters, but the concept was great. You were in a building, and you had to burn down every floor. Your character was a little square with a fuse behind it, and after a while the fuse would light, burning any walls near it. It was an awe-inspiring sight to see the walls burn, and set other walls on fire. There were even cans of gas to create huge fireballs. Of course, you had to be careful not to burn yourself up, and to make sure that your escape was clear of fire. That is the essense of what a good game should be. Graphics are okay, but should not be the focus. The game should be about having fun. If working on graphics gets in the way of making the game fun, then the programmer has failed.

That said, I am personally looking forward to Doom III, and I really think I'm going to enjoy it. By the way, you know, it's occurred to me that graphics has always been the focus of id. When Doom came out, it was the most awesome display of graphics technology the PC world had ever seen (maybe overdoing there just a bit, but you get the point). Doom was all about graphics. Personally, I really think that when they created Doom, it wasn't a much different mindset than when they created Q3A, which was "Let's make a powerful graphics engine and throw a game together in it to show off what it can do." Doom has signs of that everywhere: Lack of an in-depth storyline, level designs which look okay but make you think "WTF was that supposed to be?", and finally, I don't know why they did such a horrible job with texture alignment. Was it because their editor was not capable of adjusting the alignment? If so, I think it's odd that John Carmack would have coded alignment into the engine. Who knows? Maybe they were just lazy. Whatever it was, I want answers.

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dsm said:

Or: Doom 3 has the best concept ever devised, Daikatana's concept just plain sucks.


C'mon, whatever you think D3 will be like, you can hardly say it is some amazing concept, let alone the best ever devised. But anyway, I have enough faith in ID that they are going to produce an excellent game - I am very much in doubt as to whether it will be something as flaccid as Daikatana.

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dsm said:

but unfortunately, I've also heard that the shotgun does not hurl monsters off their feet like the old one used to do, which I find disheartening.


It doesn't in the Alpha, but it does in the final game. Tim Willits described a scene where he shot a zombie through a window and down the stairs with the shotgun.

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I see no reason to whine or to be worried..games are ment to be fun..and if doom3 is not true to doom1 ,i don't fuckin care..really..i know i'm gonna enjoy the first game with real-time lighting and toy story like graphics..i've played a loth in the arcade halls back in the old days,just games and fun!..and i think computergames have come a long way..and doom3 will be a step forward in new technology in 3d rendering..i know that for sure,you have to be an idiot if you don't see that,no offense here, my opinion

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Why be worried? You either like it (and get it) or don't (and leave it.) Either way you win; you either play a game you like or you just shrug the product off and do whatever you like with your money and your time instead.

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Wow myk, that was deep. You are truly wise. You see, this is why I stole your avatar all those years ago; I just wanted to be like myk.

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Hah, you're still peeved about me telling you to lay off it!

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I am not! It was a long journey, involving many years of therapy, but I was finally able to accept that the avatar was yours and that I had to let it go. Anyways, had it not been for that fateful post, I never would have made the cool avatar I have today (the only one on Doomworld based on Freedoom AFAIK, though there may be a couple of others).

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Shaviro said:

It doesn't in the Alpha, but it does in the final game. Tim Willits described a scene where he shot a zombie through a window and down the stairs with the shotgun.


Hey, did you ever try getting behind the one ragdoll zombie in the alpha (use notarget) and hitting him with the shotgun? :D

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Anyone saying that "doom was all about graphics" must be completely deaf, and/or enjoy Heretic1 sounds. Not even Ramborc will convince me they are fine.

Not to mention lots of new features comparing to WOlf - lights, diagonal walls, different floor heights etc.

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dsm said:

What matters to me is that they reinvent the old concept, which so far, they have done in an imo excellent way by redesigning the old monsters so that they look at least a hundred times more terrifying to behold and redesigned the setting to 1) take place on Mars which makes a lot more sense and 2) to look a lot more realistic and badass.


I agree totally. I hope they dont totally stuff up Doom 3 and make it too interactive like Half Life was.
If Doom 3 can stay similar to what Doom offered but enhance the atmosphere which looks like it has then im happy, aslong as it doesnt completely side track.

dsm said:

In addition, they've also added a great atmosphere, which imo seems to be on par with the atmosphere in the old game - making lots of cramped corridors really enhances the scare factor.


The best thing about Doom was straight forward running and gunning and I dont think you really need all this interactivity like Half Life had because what Doom offered was simple, it worked, had a good atmosphere and was damn fun.

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What Myk says is just mature thinkin...i can both agree then with myk ,but also with geekmarines first reply

About Doom3 being straight forward..some HL2 fanboys are criticizing doom3 because they think it's gonna be a straight shooter..but straight shooters are FUN...arcade days !! woohoo! i think i remember that game where you had to burn these things..most arcade games where simple and very addictive!!

..now thee days lots of kids are spoiled and way to demanding of their games..if you play 8hours a day like some, you easely get bored or very demanding ... if you like play 1hour a day or rest a few days or then just play like 3 days in a row after you didn't play a whole week,the game is mostly more fun and it's entertainment and you quit playin whit that feelin you just had fun,that warm saturated feelin..that's how it has to be...

They who whine are spoiled and to demanding and play too much...
And indeed if i wouldn't like doom3 at all..why worry? lol..i wouldn't spend my money and time on it ..

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...but then again worrying about computergames is a normal thing when your still young :-)... like adults worry about lots of other stuff...

Off topic: if kids where so demanding with music these days like with pc games,kids suddenly get heavy critics on that :-) ,we wouldn't here all that shit like britney and christina ..cause they wouldn't buy it..hell they would shout :"give us quality!"
ID delivers quality for me..times are constantly changing so are games and graphics... i admire them who stay delivering quality products for many years,especially in a world where money,image and popularity(=BAD for quality) have became so important.

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ToXiCFLUFF said:

C'mon, whatever you think D3 will be like, you can hardly say it is some amazing concept, let alone the best ever devised.

I'm sorry, but I can't ignore such a comment?
How is Doom not an amazing concept? I bet we all want to kill the most evil thing we can imagine - since Hell demons are the most evil thing (though a product of imagination) I can imagine, I love to gun them down.

What makes Doom so unique and special is that the setting is semi-modern sci-fi, involving fantasy science which is not totally over-the-top (teleportation has long been a popular ingredient in most sci fi stories), which mixes it together with mythical demons - something which is normally kind of over-the-top, but which in Doom seems strangely authentic. The story basically offers an interesting idea: "What if Hell DID exist, but it would be different? What if demons turn out to just plain be the beings living in Hell and that they can be killed?"
No other game I've come across has these elements - oh, there are several other games, including shooters, that involve demons (Blood is one example, but it takes place in 1939 and is way more over-the-top), but they don't mix things together like Doom does.

Involving demons is also always a great source of inspiration for those of us with an imagination.

Those are some of the reasons why Doom imo is the greatest concept ever followed closely by the old, used-way-too-often concept about alien invasions, and I really don't like when people tell me that they don't think it is.

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dsm, I actually agree with most of your opinions in this thread. Wow, that came out of nowhere =)

I wasn't worried about Doom III before I saw the Half-Life 2 footage from E3. Now I feel it's still going to be a good game with plenty of great potential for modding and such, but HL2 is going to offer more interesting and exciting combat and exploration. Of course I haven't seen any of these games in their finalised form so I can't tell.

As always, we'll see when the game comes out.

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dsm: Warhammer 10k was mixing sci-fi fantasy with demons long before Doom came along... and it even had space marines! :)

Of course it has aliens as well, but there aren't any alien invasions, only war between humans and aliens, and aliens and aliens... bah let's just ignore all that for now ;) )

Admittedly Warhammer 10k is a pnp game, but there are a couple of Warhammer 10k computer games... but then again AFAIK none of these have the demons in, only some of the various alien species. The gene-stealers are pretty demonic looking though.

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I think the story of creating gates to hell is older then my grandpa...like alien is based on a 50's sci fi movie..

Event horizon was also a nice interpretation of going trough hell..there it being a spaceship

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Yes, but we're talking about creating a gate to hell in a sci-fi setting, which is considerably rarer (most stories involving gates to hell are either in a contemporary or medieval/fantasy setting). The example you mention, Event Horizon, is a good one though :)

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NiGHTMARE said:

dsm: Warhammer 10k was mixing sci-fi fantasy with demons long before Doom came along... and it even had space marines! :)

I never got into Warhammer 10k so I wouldn't know, but what I do know is that warhammer 10k takes place 10.000 years after the "normal" Warhammer which takes place in a fantasy world - Doom supposedly takes place in what is intended to be this world's future.

In addition, but that's only imho (VERY humble I might add), Warhammer 10k space marines are ridiculously cheesy in their way-too-big battle suits. I prefer lightly armoured, considerably more mobile (and easier to hide!) marines a la the Aliens marines or the Doom marines. I think the marine design of Halo is decent too, because he at least still looks highly mobile despite being covered in armour from top-to-toe.

And yes, opening gates to Hell is old, but you must consider that in Doom, the demons are killable monsters. Every time I see a concept about opening doors to Hell, demons usually are totally impossible to kill by conventional means. Doom stretches the myth and turns them into creatures that may as well be formed of pure evil with frightening powers, but their strenght lies in sheer numbers - not just cheesy super demonic powers like being invulnurable to human weapons.

Add to that that Doom is in a sci-fi setting and borrows elements from Aliens which can only be a badass thing and in addition, it offers a really cool idea for an "end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it" situation.

Bah, there are so many aspects of Doom that explaining them all is difficult, but let's just cut it short and say: I think Doom is such a near-perfect concept because it's so open to interpretation and has so many aspects to it that it seems impossible to run out of ideas for it - at least if you possess a decent imagination.

Comparing Doom 3 to Daikatana is something I find rather insulting, so do yourself a favour and back down on it, because it's like a thorn in my eye. I will admit though that Doom 3 has as great a chance of disappointing as it has of being a huge success - but given my own anticipations for this game and that of several other people here on DW, I think the dumbest thing to do is comparing it to Daikatana.

I'll shut up now, given the fact that it's a matter of taste - I'll just remind you that I think Doom is the best concept I've come across and hence, even if Doom 3 disappoints my expectations, I'll still enjoy it because, Hell, it's Doom.

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dsm said:

stuff about doom having a good concept


Damn straight. When having a fight against hell in a story, you have to recognise what the hero is up against. One could say that Id chose to have demonic hellspawn because they wanted the hero to take on the most evil thing ever to be put into a fictional storyline, and i suppose the most evil thing everyone could think of is hell and satan and that's something you could admire it for. It might not be perfect but it still kicks ass.

As for doom3, i'm hoping the guys at id are using the extra time to make the game near-flawless which is something that they have at least aimed to do everytime they took a big leap with video game development.

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heh.

I think Doom 3 will be a competent game. I'm tired of speculating on it.

I do want to state once more that I do think Doom was quite simply "all about the graphics" at the time - or, more properly, "all about the technological advancement". The game just isn't that special, otherwise. It never was. It's not BAD, by any means - a bad game that is a huge technological advancement is not going to be memorable (unless it's REALLY bad and that's a whole 'nother ball of wax). But it's simply not outstanding. The weapon graphics were above-average, the sounds were middling-good, the music was decent (if memorable) - everything about the game was decent. Perhaps even above-average. But not exceptional.

I also want to state that it is quite obvious that whoever it was made that comment about Daikatana having a shitty concept has never PLAYED the game. It has an excellent concept, it just suffers from poor implementation and a little poor design. I would like to see how things would have turned out if there wasn't the huge media blitz about Daikatana. It is, after all, just like Doom, a very average game. Unfortunately, it didn't have the technological advancement advantage that Doom did, but that didn't stop Quake II from being a massive hit.

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auxois said:

I also want to state that it is quite obvious that whoever it was made that comment about Daikatana having a shitty concept has never PLAYED the game. It has an excellent concept, it just suffers from poor implementation and a little poor design. I would like to see how things would have turned out if there wasn't the huge media blitz about Daikatana

I read about Daikatana's storyline before it was released, I can't say I was extatic about its concept. But I'll leave it be and just say: Whatever, you're probably right.

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dsm: Actually, Warhammer 40k (yeah I got it wrong ;) ) doesn't take place 40k years after Warhammer - the world Warhammer takes place on is just a small part of the Warhammer 40k universe (i.e. the events in both games take place at the same time). And the Space Marines in this universe don't come from the Warhammer world, they come from Earth.

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