Doomgods??

I've seen it talked about many times and it's the subject of "Doomgods"...do we have any today? In my humble opinion I would say no. Most of the people that are considered Doomgods are usually just experts at 1-4 maps and their are thousands of good deathmatch maps out there.

Here's what I've heard over the forums and on websites...

*You're only a true Doomgod only if you play the original Doom2 executable. If you play a source port then that doesn't count.

That's a very bad way of looking at it...why limit yourself? I play ZDoom and PrBoom and usually it's only because I like the higher resolutions they give. A true Doomgod should be able to play not just the Doom2.exe but the other ports as well, again that's only my opinion.

*Well Cadman, play ****** and he'll hand you your arse on Doom2 map 1 and then you'll see a true Doomgod!

Not really, he may be a Doomgod on that map or maybe another map but that's it, and he may be a very skilled player but that doesn't make him a Doomgod. Again, the so-called Doomgod has limited himself to just a few maps that he has excelled in, he's got every trick in the book down. He has studied lmp's of other players and applied them in his map skills but that doesn't make him a Doomgod.

There are many skilled players out there and they can hand me my arse many times over but only in their maps! Xoleras was a Doomgod on Doom2 map 11 and he was pretty good at map 1 as well but map 11 was his bread and butter. He studied that map, played it over and over, knew where you were gonna spawn after each frag, anticipated your every move. A very skilled player but not a Doomgod in my book.

I personally will never be a Doomgod and do not intend to be, I play Doom because it's fun to play and that's it.

I've studied lmp's of the many great players out there and they are good and I wouldn't stand a chance against them, more power to them. BTW, here are those favorite maps of these "Doomgods"...

Doom2 Map 1 - The overall favorite! This is the map of choice for those 1 on 1 matches.

Dwango5 Map 1 - Here's the other one...very stale.

Doom2 Map 7

Dwango5 Map 7

These maps have been memorized, practiced over and over till they can be done while the player is even sleeping...sad.


Doomgods?? Nope, they don't exist in my book. But of course you guys out there have a different book than me. I've seen many players come and go and I've been playing Doom since it's been released on the unsuspecting populace...:)


Cadman - Member TeamTNT

Someone please move this, and the other DM-related post this guy did earlier, to Multiplayer, please.

If it doesn't belong here then move it. I do apologize if I put it in the wrong forum.


Cadman - Member TeamTNT

Not a problem. Easily moved.

I sense someone got a whopping in dm recently and is feeling a bit pesky about it :)

Your logic is weird. I never liked the term doomgod personally. I prefer "high skilled player". I dunno if your involved in other fps communities. Every good player in any fps have a selection of maps he/she excell on. Doom is no exception. For various reasons, the maps you mention have been established as the most important ones for as long as this game have been around. Its been the levels of choice for numerous tourneys, and the levels every notable highskilled player refined.

What you fail to realize is that for someone of extremely high skill like Ocelot, adjusting to a new map would go alot faster for him than it would for you. See, its not so much about which map you play, but the ammount of practise you have behind your dooming in general that makes for the term "doomgod".

You seem to complain about the common dm maps alot. Why? If you don't enjoy the level of competition found there, choose another map but stop hammering your pointless opinions.

ps. next time you post, attempt to not contradict yourselfe.

"Xoleras was a Doomgod on Doom2 map 11 and he was pretty good at map 1 as well "

"A very skilled player but not a Doomgod in my book."

In many ways Cadman's right, there are more than a few players out there who are great on a few maps but not very good elsewhere. I personally am not interested in playing the same maps very often, it gets really dull. There seem to be a few players out there who consider themselves to be incredible players, but they never stray from their memorized maps or, even worse, never stray from their BFG's. :p On the other hand, to each their own. If a person wants to play DWango5 MAP01 endlessly let 'em. To me a real "doomgod" would have to be highly skilled and extremely formidable on any map, even one they haven't played before. It's a general term. There are plenty of Dwango-gods, but not very many doomgods. Actually I think that would be a true test of skill, to set two players down in a never before played map and see who adapts and conquers.

In a now Blogged thread about Map01 and Map07 of Dwango5 and Doom2 I said:
I find those maps appealing, particularly Doom2 Map01 (Dwango5 Map07 is pretty cool as a firearm arena though.) And one of the reasons I find them appealing is because you can feel very skilled players have trodden them countless times when you're on them. Of course this has to do with having watched great games that have been played on them.

And truly, each map in an FPS is like a game in itself. A player may have excellent reflexes and coordination, and may be very smart and highly adaptive, but other than that playing is about mastering tricks, moves and tactics on the maps played. Only after intensive play on a map does true skill start to be displayed on any map.

I mean, trying new maps can be cool. You can sometimes discover great works worthy of adding to the repertoire, but really, that's just meandering.

Today I had a really good game on Doom2 Map01 over Kahn, as fortunately I've found a local to play against (he found me, to be precise.)

Since being really good in each map takes a lot of practice it isn't possible to be totally awesome everywhere. Pretending that would be disregarding the importance of maps or whether maps are any good, even. If you're going to judge a map by it's qualities, what are you going to judge if you're thinking map-related skills aren't relevant? You'll diss totally valid specific skills and only consider some vague dexterity on the part of the player that should somehow show up on any map? What great player doesn't have maps he excels at when each map is different and when he has put a lot of work there? Who are you to say they suck elsewhere cause they own there? Give names if you want, but talking shit in general about the importance of knowing well a maps subtle quirks is not going to lead you anywhere. And pretending you know that people that play very well in some place will not be good elsewhere won't help either.

Rellik said:
I personally am not interested in playing the same maps very often, it gets really dull.

Okay, it bores you, but will you ever be god-like on any level? Plus, are you saying this map-specific skill isn't that special because you get bored quickly of being on the same map?

It's a general term. There are plenty of Dwango-gods, but not very many doomgods. Actually I think that would be a true test of skill, to set two players down in a never before played map and see who adapts and conquers.

How fast a player learns about a map or how he handles himself early on is important, but really, you wont see anything special looking at a game on a totally new map... What you say is sort of like saying "let's put a random bunch of football players together and see how they fare against another random bunch," disregarding prior training or any knowledge of the opponent (given the fact that a map is as much an obstacle as the other player, you have to know where the shit is and how and when to use it to be any good.) And think about it, any player that only plays new maps, or plays short periods on each is going to have to be a hell of a motherfucking god to beat players that have really practiced on those maps.

Rellik,

Myk pretty much pointed out the redicolous logic of your post already, but I thought I'd add some.

If you put two players in a map they never saw before it would not come down to skill in the first few games, it would come down to luck and accidental circumstances. After a few repeated games the player with the most ammount of hardworked skill would come out on top, pretty much logic don't you think?

What this thread comes down to in reality is people who cant face the fact; that there is a skill gap in deathmatch between casual players and those who went at it hardcore for years. Instead of facing down to that guys like you blame the game balance (bfg) and diss people who took time to learn all the tactics in the most commonly played levels.

you seem to totally dissregard the point made above about skill. Skill comes from practise. some players have more practise than others. Those with the most practise are often reffered to as "doomgods" in this community, a term I tend to stray away from.

I'd like you to name these players that go around and consider themselves incredible, unless you lack the balls. Like myk said, if your gonna throw accusations around, be specific.

This topic annoys me, because people like you tend to disregard the hard work some people put into excelling at the game and write it off as "just some memmorized tactics".

Anyone who still go on whining about the bfg truly don't understand much of doom gameplay at all and should perhaps reconsider debating the topic. You have no idea how lame it looks from the perspective of someone who spent a few 1000 hours more than you ingame.

Yawn.

Andy Johnsen said:

I'd like you to name these players that go around and consider themselves incredible, unless you lack the balls. Like myk said, if your gonna throw accusations around, be specific.

Badfish and Ralphis are the first two that pop into my head. Personally, I'd love to see those two have a match in d5m1. Bloodlust thinks too highly of himself as well, but he doesn't seem to 'control' (best word I can think of) his self-inflated ego as well as they can.

Sometimes I act like I'm some incredible macho man, but that's usually for shits and giggles, or when I'm in a DC tournament. =P

I mean, if I said that I was godlike in #nightmare, I'd get my ass spanked in map01, since I literally have zero tactics in map01.

LOL, Myk, Andy, you guys need to get a new hobby as you are taking this way way too seriously.

Who are you to say they suck elsewhere cause they own there?

Why, I'm a doomgod. Cantcha see the halo? You need to learn to read what people actually say. I never said that all map-specific players suck elsewhere. It's the very first sentence of my post, read it again.

What you say is sort of like saying "let's put a random bunch of football players together and see how they fare against another random bunch," disregarding prior training or any knowledge of the opponent

What I'm saying is a football team that only has one play is gonna be really good at that one play. That doesn't make them great football players. :)

If you put two players in a map they never saw before it would not come down to skill in the first few games, it would come down to luck and accidental circumstances.

Hmmm, you must be either really new, really bad, or just another player who needs to have all kinds of excuses why that n00b just kicked your ass on a new map. :p

You two need to calm down. Why are you lashing out like that? Truth hit a little close to home? :)

Relax, it's just a game fer doomgods sake.

deathz0r, those two can brag, be silly, or stuff... but who on Earth takes them seriously when they do what they do? Don't tell me it wouldn't be amusing if Rellik and Cadman were actually talking about them and making a fuss about it.

I still can't forget Bloodlust and Badfish throwing shit at each other chronically over IRC saying stuff like; "I was beating you by 5 frags and you left, fag!" "No, that wasn't me, that was someone else, I was eating dinner, I'll play you later and you'll see you can't beat me..." and so on.

Rellik said:
You two need to calm down. Why are you lashing out like that? Truth hit a little close to home? :)

Yeah, lashing out... or you must be either really new, really bad, or just another moron who needs to have all kinds of excuses why that n00b just kicked your ass on a forum thread.

Rellik: Andy Johnsen is hardly a "n00b".

myk: ditto for Rellik.

In fact, just look at the registration dates; Andy Johnsen: 09-00, Rellik 01-01, Myk 04-02... Myk is actually the most "n00b"-ish of all three of you :)

And before you call me a "n00b"... *points to custom title* ;)

Of course I'm a n00b, NiGHTMARE... if you read above, that was my point, and as you can see, I never called him a n00b at all, only a moron.

Holy crap you guys, I'm just stirring the shit, take it easy. You guys are way too easy to piss off. :p

It's really something of everything I hear...Some people believe that I'm saying this because I got my backside handed to me in a certain map and that I'm lashing out. I've been playing Doom single player/deathmatch since the game was released. I've played many matches, whether it's 1 on 1 or multiple players and have had my ass handed to me many times so if I really wanted to lash out I would, I'm just bringing up my personal opinion, nothing more. I will also probably get my ass handed to me many times more...that's life.

If you are a master of any map I congratulate you on your skill, I don't care whether it's Dwango5 map 1 or any other map, you are skilled. And you can probably play any map very well and smack people down. You are a very skilled player.

To me a Doomgod is very skilled in Doom and can learn any map quickly and exploit the other player's weaknesses. Some people say to just pick a map blindly and release the players in that map and see if they are really Doomgods, I say give the players involved the map to be used and let them run through it for maybe 5-10 minutes and then let them play. A very skilled player will use his superior movement skills along with weapon usage to win the match.

Most of the people in Zdaemon or Doom Connector can beat me even though I've been playing all these years, for me it's fun and that's it. I have a life outside of Doom and this wonderful game has been fun to me, like a pressure release switch.

Whether you guys like it or not, you the "Doom Community" have made it fun for me and will continue to do so. And of course I will continue to play deathmatch but not the maps I stated in a different thread.

And YES!!!! I am a Doomgod!!!! ROFL!


Cadman - Member TeamTNT

Back in the deathmatch '95 they put the players on new maps, I think they had some time prior to the game to familarise themselves with it, think I still got semifinal wad somewhere.

Rellik,

When you invest enough time in something you might find it sticking more serious to you as well. Regardless of what your spending it on, when you sweat over something for long enough your going to approach it different than those who look at it more casually. That should be easier to understand today when theres professional gamers for several titles. Doom don't have the popularity or up to date engine to ever become one of those, but the mindset Ocelot goes about doom with is comparable to those who play it professionally for quake and counterstrike or whatever. Why would this be a crime?

When someone then comes along talking out of his lower half on the subject, then yes I'm easy to piss off.

"Hmmm, you must be either really new, really bad, or just another player who needs to have all kinds of excuses why that n00b just kicked your ass on a new map. :p"

heh =) Solid arguments. Not good is it when you realize your unable to respond with anything but a joke instead of reading the arguments and giving them a thought.

Cadman,

"To me a Doomgod is very skilled in Doom and can learn any map quickly and exploit the other player's weaknesses. "

Who are you to say players like this don't exist? Have you yourselfe contacted some of the high skilled players like Dominus and Sedlo and played them to figure this out or is it just a blunt assumption?

"I say give the players involved the map to be used and let them run through it for maybe 5-10 minutes and then let them play. A very skilled player will use his superior movement skills along with weapon usage to win the match."

Pretty much, yes. So how does this not fit in with the high skilled players of today? Answer this before you ramble on in your next post please.

Andy Johnsen, yes, the thing that started me off was that they effectively were throwing dirt at all the work out on specific maps, as if that weren't true skill because it was specific to a map; anything that is truly good is going to have to take a lot of work, and the type of skilled play displayed on available recordings is not obtained by "cheaply playing only on one or two maps." So if you're going to diss something with specific references (to doom2.net, since a player whose demos are mainly there was mentioned, and a mention was made about doom2.exe) be prepared for a reply. If all you wanted to say Ralphis or someone bragged to you and made fun of you on Dwango5 Map07, just say that, don't speak generically and mix your point with vaguely related material. Be clear; don't expect people to read your mind. What you "mean" doesn't matter, it's what you write that counts.

Maps with lot of work on them, such as Doom2 Map01 and other are relevant not only cause they passed a test that they're good enough to be played on, a bunch of maps can pass that test, but also because of the combined wealth of playing skill displayed and refined on them. DOOM II deathmatch is not random play on an assorted bunch of maps, but intensive play on several chosen maps where players have chosen to take matches.

duhhh... I am super doomgod at doom because I play only one map all the time and I become super good at that map so that means I am a doom god.. duhhhh durr durr.

a true "doomgod" is good at doom, not at maps...
instead of saying that playing a map over and over again lets you get skillfull at a map, a better skill is how quick you can learn a map.

besides, I don't really care if there are people that are sUP3r I337z00rss!! at doom.. I just play for fun... playing a game to the point where you have to be the best just shows that games are too much of a part of your life..
oh well, as long as you are happy..

There are at least two types of players around at the moment on zdaemon/csdoom/doom connector (I won't include skulltag in this because that usually involves types of teamplay), some want to beat everyone, become top dog , even a Doom God, (btw Badfish if you read this, others call you a Doom God, you cannot do what you did, and self proclaim yourself as one ), they play for the cudos of being good, feared,and/or admired etc, others just want the fun of a FFA, and the easiest place to get a quick FFA is drop into a Dwango5 map :) Some people should read my sig and remember what deathmatch is all about.

KoRn said:
a true "doomgod" is good at doom, not at maps...

You play DOOM without maps?

instead of saying that playing a map over and over again lets you get skillfull at a map, a better skill is how quick you can learn a map.

That "skill" is not measurable... and even if it is to a degree, how long is it before you are supposed to decide when you've learned a map and you're to move on to another? Joe plays on a map for 5 hours and sort of gets some ideas and strategies. Should Joe play some more there or move on to something else? Why? Why do you oppose playing specific maps to some form of generic adaptation?

You might as well simply have said you're a casual player and left the rest (a simple repetition of what someone said above) out. I mean, causal play isn't bad at all; I myself am not the most intensive player out there and know there's players can kick my ass to the moon blindfolded... but I don't bitch at true skill. I just enjoy the game, play as good as I can, and simply admire excellence.

The use of specific maps is what allows the sharing and working-up of skill, if you change the game's board each time or very ofen you can't measure anything and you can learn very little.

Sounds pretty simple to me. I'm not saying what anyone has to like or prefer... but why blather away? Also, I don't even generally use the term "doomgod," nor did I argue about "doomgods" on my posts... who cares...and why do people become obssessed about that, especially in such a negative way?

koRn,

Tho your post shows an iq hardly worth responding to, I'm feeling sorta bored atm so I will.

"a true "doomgod" is good at doom, not at maps...
instead of saying that playing a map over and over again lets you get skillfull at a map, a better skill is how quick you can learn a map."

The flaw in this resurfacing argument is that someone who excell at map01 to the point of being able to do what Ocelot does in it, would posess the basic playing skills to adapt alot faster to a new map. What you fail to grasp is that it requires a lot of basic playing skills and years of practise in order to get to that level of play. Its not a matter of simply knowing the respawn spots.

"besides, I don't really care if there are people that are sUP3r I337z00rss!! at doom.. I just play for fun... playing a game to the point where you have to be the best just shows that games are too much of a part of your life.. "

Who says you need to care about it?
Professional gaming is more or less a sport these days. If someone excell in a sport of a more established genre, would you tell this person the same? Some people enjoy competition. If thats rewarding to them, who are you to say its a waste of time?

This is not about crying out for respect to those who spent more time refining their game, its about understanding why theres some difference in how people approach the game. Some people play for casual fun and have no intention of advancing their game competively. Both approaches are fine, as long as your enjoying it. We get a problem tho, when one side attempts to speak for the other w/o really having any insight and fundation for what its rambling on about.

As a sidenote, I really like fodders signature.

Rellik,

When you invest enough time in something you might find it sticking more serious to you as well. Regardless of what your spending it on, when you sweat over something for long enough your going to approach it different than those who look at it more casually.

I know all about the pride of proficiency, I was a very respected tournament paintball player for 12 years. One of the reasons we were able to dominate was that we were very good on any feild, man-made, natural, sup air, we did it all. We played lots of teams that could many times beat us on a particular field, but in the long run we usually came out on top. Experience is the name of the game, and it prepares you to think your way out of any situation. Example:

It was the first game of tournament about 3 years ago, I got to the feild and geared up. The rest of the team still wasn't there. 5 minutes to game, still no team. I walk onto the sup air feild alone against 5 guys. There's no way I could win that game without doing some extremely fast thinking. The whistle blew and I dropped to my stomach and crawled like the wind up to the second up middle barricade, turned and started shooting at the far back right corner barricade, yes my own barricade. I could hear the other team hooping and hollering as they ran up. My shooting my own barricade made them think it was one of their guys that had me pinned down behind it. When they went for it I had them. By the time they realized what was happening they had all run past me and I'd whacked 4 of their guys. The fifth guy and myself got a simultaneous elimination so the game ended with me having 25 points for 5 hits, them with 30 points for hitting me and getting the flag grab.

Granted, that was a bloody miracle probably never to happen again, but it goes to show you that it's not always about practicing for a known situation, you have to be prepared for the unknown.

In the end it's still just a game. The whole reason I gave up tournament ball was because people here forgot it was a game, it's for fun. People started taking it sooo seriously, bitching about everything under the sun and attacking anyone who dared question their mad ballin' skillz. I see something similiar happening here.

Andy, I saw your registration date and that kind of thing means exactly squat to me. It's all about how you conduct yourself. If you were secure in your status, why the need to attack Cadman personally? Who are you to say his opinions are pointless? Then you call my logic rediculous, what's up with that? Cadman and myself were merely stating opinions, that's all. Instead of just disagreeing and keeping the discussion civil you're the one who dragged it down into the muck. Why is that? Do you feel threatened? I don't understand why you and Myk would get so worked up about this.

Meh, in any case it's not worth it. If you two would like to keep this discussion going in a civilised way it might be fun, but otherwise it's just a waste of time.

Rellik,

I'm gonna start at the bottom of your post. This thread have stayed pretty much civilized until korn's post up there as far as I'm conserned. When thats said, the posts you made following your first are obviously less civilized/thought through than the responses you've gotten.

I don't mind people stating opinions at all, but if you state an opinion on a forum expect to get responses.

My opinion is that cadman don't have the proper insight to approach the subject of who deservs the lable "doom god" or not, and I've argued why. So far either of you have contradicted these arguments but avoided them and rambled on about other stuff.

"Andy, I saw your registration date and that kind of thing means exactly squat to me."

I couldn't agree more. I base what I say on my invovlement with the game on a competive level the past 7-8 years.

"In the end it's still just a game. The whole reason I gave up tournament ball was because people here forgot it was a game, it's for fun. People started taking it sooo seriously, bitching about everything under the sun and attacking anyone who dared question their mad ballin' skillz. I see something similiar happening here."

Again I agree. Tho the "bitching" seems to come from those who need to attack those who play the game hardcore instead of casual; cadman and yourselfe. As myk says, I dunno where the hostility or need to feel this is a topic worth bringing up, comes rom. Sure, theres a few arrogant pricks around who think they are better than everyone else just cus they can outfrag someone in a game of doom. The people I know and respect who worked hard on their gaming skills tho, are beyond the socially retarded level of that.

Your paintball story is amusing tho I fail to see how it connects to this all. "you have to be prepeard for the unknown" as if that was supposed to be the clue to godly dm skills? Nomatter what direction you choose to fire your cg in some unknown map, if you give ocelot and yourselfe enough time to familiarize with the level you're gonna get your ass handed to you in what some would call a very doom-goddish way. And thats sort of the bottom line here, in the end practise and workload behind the skills will determine the better player.

Rellik said:
In the end it's still just a game. The whole reason I gave up tournament ball was because people here forgot it was a game, it's for fun. People started taking it sooo seriously, bitching about everything under the sun and attacking anyone who dared question their mad ballin' skillz. I see something similiar happening here.

I sure don't. You're not dealing with BadFish here. No one boasted about anything. The only thing remotely related to that which I heard was someone saying that he knew what skill and intense practice are... just like you must have surely known after years of playing paintball. Unless you mean "here" as in the DOOM Connector or ZDaemon servers you've been joining lately... but again, if you don't specify what you're talking about...

Andy, I saw your registration date and that kind of thing means exactly squat to me.

Eh...

It's all about how you conduct yourself. If you were secure in your status, why the need to attack Cadman personally? Who are you to say his opinions are pointless? Then you call my logic rediculous, what's up with that? Cadman and myself were merely stating opinions, that's all. Instead of just disagreeing and keeping the discussion civil you're the one who dragged it down into the muck. Why is that? Do you feel threatened? I don't understand why you and Myk would get so worked up about this.

You can call it "worked up," but I'll tell you, you did give me lots of cues for materializing and disclosing my thoughts on the matter (and to hear Andy's), so thanks for the great opportunity. As for how ridiculous some of your points may be, even your key points, that's already set forth on the previous replies, so...

Meh, in any case it's not worth it. If you two would like to keep this discussion going in a civilised way it might be fun, but otherwise it's just a waste of time.

Exactly. Go for what you enjoy... for instance, why vaguely and inaccurately complain about how some brat or two bragged on some servers on some forums that are only loosely related to those servers? There's more agreeable things to do, that, to boot, won't get you berated by people who won't tolerate such sloppy ranting. And, I mean, you didn't even start it either.

fodders said:

Some people should read my sig and remember what deathmatch is all about.

I've been meaning to ask you fodders, did you write that sig yourself or is it from somewhere (and if so where)?

I didn't want to put my foot into this discussion, really, but it seemed like the a good opportunity to ask that question.

It's from the Olympics 2000 ads:

http://www.geocities.com/eaglewan/olympics.html

Andy Johnsen said:

When thats said, the posts you made following your first are obviously less civilized/thought through than the responses you've gotten.

Sorry, but it's definitely the other way around. Besides "Hmmm, you must be either really new, really bad, or just another player who needs to have all kinds of excuses why that n00b just kicked your ass on a new map. :p" (which is obviously a joke anyway), not once has Rellik personally insulted anyone, yet he has been called a moron, accused of whining, told he uses ridiculous logic, etc.

Nightmare,

I find relliks followup posting to be unserious and jokingly irrelevant/provocative yes (his first and last post excluded) That makes them less of a thought through reply than those he have been receiving.

Telling someone they use redicolous logic is hardly an insult if thats how I see his arguments. I don't see how that automatically makes him a moron. And yeah, I call it whining when people bring up the bfg topic during a discussion where it dosn't belong at all.

Personally, I think your just bored and trying to cook up some more posts on this thread tho, mr. Baker :] Lets keep it relevant to the topic at least.

Actually it was Myk who called him a moron (twice).

But yeah, I'll stop cluttering up this thread. I only ever play DM on my LAN anyway, mainly because I'm sick of the four maps that keep being mentioned on this thread, i.e. Doom 2 map01 & map07, and Dwango 5 map01 and map07 :)

In case you're interested, we mainly play Surge 1 and 2 ;)