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Janderson

Sell outs?

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Ok, explain to me. Whats wrong with commercialisation? The way I understand it anyone who gets paid wages or pocketmoney can't say shit or complain about it. Whats the deal?

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darknation said:

you become part of a capitalist structure that's only goal is "make money" as opposed to "make art".

You can do both though, but you'll end up poor, dead, or outright insane.

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Ha, just try it. The company fears new ideas because new ideas will probably fail.

Look at the movie industry for details.

The real artists working in in a commercial enviroment are never new: they tend to be crotchetty 100 year old motherfuckers with gout. The only real auteurs these days are people like Lynch, Reznor, Kubrick (deceased) etc.

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But how would you live if you made art instead of money? You can't eat your CD's and Paintings. But I guess if you were a cook you'd survive.

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To me, the sell outs are (for example) the people that make a stance of "fuck the system", make a few sales and become the system - with no changes versus the previous system. They have quite happily sacrificed personal principles to suck corporate cock for whatever price they felt was worth it. Not that I care, but I guess that comes pretty close to a sell out.

Other people have always had as there stated goal to make as much money as they can, however thay can. They can't sell out.

Other people still (I'm guessing the majority of people who are accused of being sell outs) have their art, their message, whatever, and are quite happy to sell a million and become rich and famous as well. It's these people who get accused of selling out by their "original fans" who saw them play in a dive bar somewhere in nowheresville 3 years before they hit the big time. How did they sell out? Um, because their CDs sell now? because they play big venues? because their musical/artistic style moved on? because they got a good deal? because they appeared on TV? they got a movie part? they got an award? That's not selling out. It's having fun, doing what you want and the accusers are suffering from the foul taste of sour grapes.

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If you had said "I wanna make music" then that would be the end of this conversation.

I wanna be a rockstar = I wanna get fucked by loads of women I wanna get high on cocaine I wanna make loads of money I wanna picture of my face on the magazines

You could become a pornstar and get all those trappings, but you will be no less of a whore really.

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Enjay said:

3rd sellout paragraph



thats what SO MANY PEOPLE say about metallica and i dont believe it even tho their latest album sucked imo.

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darknation said:

If you had said "I wanna make music" then that would be the end of this conversation.


Unless I miss what you're saying there, I don't think it would. It is perfectly possible to say "I wanna make music" and "I wanna be rich and famous too" without being a sell out. I don't see that one necessarily precludes the other.

What about the person who wants to entertain with their music and wants to get a good wage from it too? No pretensions, no posturing, just entertainment. Surely they are producing music. How does it become a sell out when they start making money?

Is the guy at my local pub who plays the accordion a sell out because he charges for a gig to supplement his beer money? If not, when would he become a sell out? When a record company signs him? When a big hall asks him to play for big money?

The only time I see a sell out is if someone sacrifices their principles for money - then we have a sell out. I don't see a problem with making music and money.

And what about the shades of grey? I have a message, but no-one can hear it. I'm prepared to compromise on a few issues to get my message to a bigger audience. Is that a sell out?

Your whore analogy is very emotive and colourful, but we all sell ourselves and our services to a greater or lesser extent. So, we are all whores from a certain point of view. Are we any more of a whore if we can play an instrument or sing or compose and choose to do that for money? As for the coke, getting laid and being in magazines, those are optional spin offs of fame, not necessarily what you get paid for.

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you make good points NJ, but I have seen nothing other than a greed motive from Janderson in this thread.

It pisses me off when the linkin parks of the world are eating creative space that could be lived in by someone with ideas and talent.

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darknation said:

It pisses me off when the linkin parks of the world are eating creative space that could be lived in by someone with ideas and talent.


I think I agree with you in a gut feel kind of way.

I don’t know enough about Linkin park’s background to comment on them specifically, but I too get upset about manufactured teeny-bop-cock-rockers, boy bands and the whole amorphous mass of trendily gelled, designer clothed pretty boy and girl all singing all dancing bland-bands. In general, aside from the very occasional tune that slips through the net, I find their music featureless, boring and frustratingly and blatantly aimed at money making from a weak, impressionable audience. However, sometimes think I have missed the point of what bands of this type are trying to do.

As I said, I do get upset about bands producing something that masquerades as art and creativity but which is actually clearly a shallow attempt at money making. However, when I see such people interviewed, they rarely claim to be great artists or trying to set the world on fire. They are usually surprisingly frank and open, saying they have a target audience of the high consuming, fad conscious 12-14 year old market and that is what they are trying to appeal to (and are having great fun doing it). It also has to be said that these bands (and the money men and image people who drive them) are actually very good at what they do. That in itself deserves a measure of respect. These people are often phenomenally successful and do manage to capture their target audience’s allowance to the tune of millions of dollars. And the target audience loves it. No one can doubt that the intended audience is being provided with entertainment. Is it art? Does it matter?

I think, as often as not, I am transposing my pretentious opinions of what "real music" should be on to bands that are not actually trying to live up to my expectations, and I get upset, when (quite naturally) they don't live up to those expectations. I think a lot of the time, the people making disposable fad pop are not claiming to be great artists. I am imbuing them with what I see as the characteristics of artists and then berating them for not living up to something I have foisted upon them. If that is the case, the problem is not with them, but with me.

That having been said, I feel the music scene would be a lot more interesting without manufactured pop. Mind you, if you look – it is. The mainstream is just that. You shouldn't expect to find many "true artists" (whatever that may be) in the mainstream pop industry. By its very nature, it is mainstream, designed to appeal to the masses and make money as a result. It really shouldn’t be a surprise that the radio and TV stations, the record companies and so on pander to this kind of music. It’s what they are set up for. If you are looking for great works in the mainstream, you're probably looking in the wrong place. Step off the beaten track and you’ll find it. You won’t find what you are looking for in the main stream arena – that’s not their place because the mainstream arena is a bland, boring, safe money making arena that does it's job very well and has little room for creativity because creativity is a high risk strategy. Equally well, step off the beaten track and you won't find Britney. That’s not her place. The only tragedy here is that people who don't look to the wider horizon miss out on everything other than the music industry's version of TV dinners, or perhaps Mac-music and fries. :-)

So endeth the ramblings of Chairman Enjay.

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Heh, I don't know how you can write all that, Enjay.

Pop still pisses me off, though.

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All I know is that I want to be a musician someday. I dont care how much money I make, as long as I have enough to feed myself. And if I end up making millions, I won't know what to do with it and I'll probably deposit it all into charities or something. :P

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the_Danarchist said:

I'll probably deposit it all into charities or something. :P

That's what they all say... until they get the money :P

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Fredrik said:

That's what they all say... until they get the money :P

Well I'm quite more generous than most people I know, but I dunno, might just be my insane ego talking.

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darknation said:

The company fears new ideas because new ideas will probably fail.

Actually I think it's more along the lines of stuff going against their traditional methods that made them money in the past but would be outdated now and thus put them out of a job...

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Pop sucks. Pop rock used to be cool.
The 70's and 80's were cool. As far as music is conerned that is.

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Johnny Quest thinks we're sell-outs (sell-outs)
Johhny Quest thinks we're selling out (selling out, yeah)

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Lots of musicians I can think of are rich and not sel outs. Billy Joel, Bruce Springsteen, or the Eagles come to mind. Musicians that stayed true to their roots and haven't changed themselves to fit the popular type. Last time I saw a concert was Billy Joel and Elton John, who both managed to sell out a concert despite being "old people's music".

And art? ugh... don't get me started. Few people even care about art anymore... everyone is just in it for the get rich and famous bit. How many famous artists ever saw their work become appreciated? Degas? Cezanne? No... they all died poor. Now everyone just tries to offend as many people as possible to get recognition. Nobody cares about the beauty anymore. The last great painters left are painting hunting cabins and deer.

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sell outs do it for the money, nuff said. they usally care little for the people below them, they also get addicted to power.

others do it cause they love it. yes wew do need money, but we dont need to be greedy

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You know you're a sell out when:

- You find yourself in a GAP TV ad.

- You cry about filesharing around the same time you go buy yourself a new scottish castle cuz, well cuz you feel like buying one and you've got enough cash to choke Jesus Christ.

- You complain at a California fund raiser about how horrible life is in 3rd world countries but drove to the event in a $200,000 SUV.

- You're Christina Aguilera.

- You're in any way affiliated with MTV.

Keep it going! Yay! Heh.

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Meh, I just ignore the pop crap. The only problem is it's really popular so all the teenagers go around acting like your some kind of loser if you don't like their stuff.

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ravage said:

Pop sucks. Pop rock used to be cool.
The 70's and 80's were cool. As far as music is conerned that is.

Oh man, I'm starting to wonder if I can just meet all my new friends off here ;)

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darknation said:

you make good points NJ, but I have seen nothing other than a greed motive from Janderson in this thread.

It pisses me off when the linkin parks of the world are eating creative space that could be lived in by someone with ideas and talent.

Hey, hey! all I wanted to do was find out whats wrong with commercialisation! I wouldn't mind being a musician, but it wouldn't be ALL for the money.

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Technically, selling out means to do something for money even if it is against your own morals. That is if you had any to begin with.

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