largest/most complex map ever?

Whats the largest file size of any WAD, in terms of map data? I'm just talking MAPxx, THINGS, LINEDEFS, SIDEDEFS, VERTEXES, SEGS, SSECTORS, NODES, SECTORS, REJECT and BLOCKMAP. No textures, flats, sprites, scripts, sounds, midi or other data. I recall seeing one a while back that was over 3 megs, but I'm curious about which one is THE largest.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=11518

TNT3 Map01 is very large. Here is some data:

http://tormentor667.covers.de/Tormentor667/images/doom/tnt3/mapoverview.jpg

It's not as detailed as Vrack and Europa is, but it is very large

Tormentor667 said:

TNT3 Map01 is very large. Here is some data:

You must have mixed up LINEDEFS and SIDEDEFS, because it can't have more linedefs than sidedefs, now can it? :-)

...or is that the disk size in bytes for these things? Still doesn't quite make sense.

The one I'm working on, which is like 10% done, has 729 sectors right now, so I imagine a really large one would have like 4000 or more. Past that you'll be running into the WAD format SIDEDEF limit (32768), somewhat depending on your style of mapping. So, if my 10% estimate is right, I cannot finish it due to format limitations :-/ (as if I will have the enrgy to build that much in the first place...)

Maybe I mixed something up :| My fault...

RTC-3057 map02 stats:

3855 sectors
13155 lines
27261 sides

Raw map size: 3.2 megs.

All these numbers will most likely more than double before it's done. That is:

~8000 sectors
~28000 lines
~56000 sides

~7 megs

Thatsa spicy meataball!

/me waits in anticipation for RTC...

Shaviro said:

All these numbers will most likely more than double before it's done. That is:

~8000 sectors
~28000 lines
~56000 sides

...so ZDoom can read WADs which have more than 32768 sidedefs? That limit is a part of the WAD file format and not the engine, so I thought no engine had solved that.

and anyway, I'm mainly interested stuff that's built, not stuff thats PLANNED ;-)

nevermind, cyb pointed out the ZDoom linedef limit is vastly higher than for other engines.

vrack2 and eaeuro03.
tnt3 is nothing compared to that, it's just slow too because of that much snow.

ukiro said:

You must have mixed up LINEDEFS and SIDEDEFS, because it can't have more linedefs than sidedefs, now can it? :-)

Actually, you can have vastly more linedefs than sidedefs, by compressing the sidedefs.

Hirogen2 said:

vrack2 and eaeuro03.

Vrack2b is 2309kb for map data only, eaeuro03 is 2978. But as I said I recall seeing something over 3 megs once...

the only editor that actually supports zdoom's insane limits (ie limits > than any other port) is deepsea as far as I know (doom builder?)

This one Millennium map I've been doing has about 50,000 sides so far, but it's not complete yet. Once I make some fixes to my last level it'll probably at least as big. And then, who knows, maybe it'll even be released.

Lüt said:

This one Millennium map I've been doing has about 50,000 sides so far, but it's not complete yet. Once I make some fixes to my last level it'll probably at least as big. And then, who knows, maybe it'll even be released.

aah, and what editor do you use? Cybs comment there made me curious...

oh, and FINISH THAT THING ALREADY, I want to see millennium.

ukiro said:

aah, and what editor do you use? Cybs comment there made me curious...

DeepSea :P

ukiro said:

...so ZDoom can read WADs which have more than 32768 sidedefs? That limit is a part of the WAD file format and not the engine, so I thought no engine had solved that.

IIRC, ZDoom's doubled it (i.e. 65536). Don't forget that ZDoom's level formatting stuffage is significantly different than the standard Doom one (being based as it is on Hexen's). Every other port I know of (besides ones based on ZDoom, obviously) still just uses the standard level format.

NiGHTMARE said:

IIRC, ZDoom's doubled it (i.e. 65536)

Last I heard, somebody told me "if you hit a limit, let us know". Apparently it should handle maps of any size.

NiGHTMARE said:

IIRC, ZDoom's doubled it (i.e. 65536) Don't forget that ZDoom's level formatting stuffage is significantly different than the standard Doom one (being based as it is on Hexen's).

I sure hope DoomBuilder will be able to handle levels that big.
btw: Get on IRC, nick! :)

Lüt said:

Last I heard, somebody told me "if you hit a limit, let us know". Apparently it should handle maps of any size.

The limit can't be higher than 65536. 65536 is the amount of different combinations that can be stored in a 16-bit integer, and 16-bit ints is what Doom uses for its levels.

yeah, numbering of lines, sectors etc etc are stored in unsigned shorts in wad files, so the limit is actually 65536 sidedefs since linedefs need to store the correct numbers of corresponding sidedefs.

also, while zdoom nativly runs maps in hexen format, you can still build standard doom format maps up to this size, though zdoom will be the only port that can actually run it even though it's in the correct format for ports like prboom and eternity

zdoom is also the only port to support blockmaps over the size of the original exe, which I'm sure will come in handy if you make a map with 65536 sidedefs :P

so the limit is actually 65536 sidedefs since linedefs need to store the correct numbers of corresponding sidedefs.

Not quite true. You'll run into the linedef limit before you run into the sidedef limit if you pack the sidedefs. Also, you'll hit 65536 segs before you reach 65536 lines or sides.

zdoom is also the only port to support blockmaps over the size of the original exe, which I'm sure will come in handy if you make a map with 65536 sidedefs :P

Not true either. Doom's blockmap limit of 64K was raised to 128K in Boom, iirc :P

Hirogen2 said:

vrack2 and eaeuro03.
tnt3 is nothing compared to that, it's just slow too because of that much snow.

Yes, TNT3 Map01 has only 1,3MB raw data

Fredrik said:

Not quite true. You'll run into the linedef limit before you run into the sidedef limit if you pack the sidedefs. Also, you'll hit 65536 segs before you reach 65536 lines or sides.

Not true either. Doom's blockmap limit of 64K was raised to 128K in Boom, iirc :P

well of course there are other factors that play into the limits, I'm simply saying the absolute upper limit of sidedefs is 65536. Segs may not come into play with zdoom either, because it builds nodes on a version of the wad in memory which I imagine doesn't have to be limited to the wad format (though I'm pretty sure it is, since you can dump the map to a wad file). Vertices are also limited to 65536 in amount for instance but some extras get added during the nodes process.

However you are wrong about the Boom thing. From teamtnt's page:

Blockmap limit increased from 32K to 64K (was 32K in linux port) without requiring wad changes

not quite sure what zdoom's blockmap limit is offhand, I just know it can run maps that prboom chokes on (that recent map 'ultramarine' comes to mind).

Ah. I didn't remember the right sizes for the blockmap, but at least I had it right that it had been changed in Boom already ;)

Industrial and CC map 29 (both by magikal) and Castevil.wad are the biggest I know.

I dont think the latest version of DB is made to read that number of linedefs/sidedefs, but the next version will.

just out of curiosity I compiled some stats:

cchest.wad (map29)
Linedefs: 14950
Sidedefs: 24715
Sectors : 1421

vrack2b.wad
Linedefs: 12575
Sidedefs: 21705
Sectors : 2516

eaeuro03.wad
Linedefs: 15022
Sidedefs: 28142
Sectors : 2884

ultramarine.wad
Linedefs: 15525
Sidedefs: 25963
Sectors : 2861

And just for the record I still have not gotten cc29 to work under any port.

worked with zdoom for me