Holy War!

Right, as it's not fair to hijack someone else's thread, it's time for the Super Happy Fun Mass Religion debate.

The aim of the game is to beat your opponents senseless with the lead cudgel of your argument, be it pro-God to anti-christ, thus converting them around to your beliefs and making a giant forum utopia where everyone agrees on everything.

But to make the holy omlette, we have to break some holy eggs.

First off, it is my belief that there is no God. I can't imagine why there would be. There probably was a Jesus at some point, but only in the L. Ron Hubbard sense.

Lessee... you live your life being God, not coveting your neighbors ass and not being gay or shit. You live in the lap of poverty while the higher classes lord it over you in opulence. And you do this because once you die you go to heaven for not killing or murdering or revolting against your peers.

Is it just me, or is this just a tad convenient for the upper class of the time? "It's OK, you are poor now and your kids have mouths full of rotting teeth, you work down the mines and your lungs are black and your entire life is a platter of misery and shit whilst I, the Priest, work a good 2 hours a week and like molesting little altar boys on the side. But it's OK really, because when you eventually snuff it you get to go to heaven and be happy! So clean my boots bitch or you'll burn in the fires of hell for all eternity!"

My second point is, why on earth would God, if he exists, care about us? The whole 'God made man in his own image' is very narcissistical, that if God made an infinite universe and everything in it why would he care about a bunch of monkeys spanking night and day on a dirtball orbiting a star? What makes you think that he gives a toss about crappy little cathedrals erected in his honour, or he gives a toss about a bunch of old people screeching in church to His Majesty? Anything we can do or build he has already done plusplus.

Oh yeah, church collapses. Ha ha, explain those. God loves his irony.

Also, be good = goes to heaven. Being good entails not being a scheming little bastard or coveting anything etcetera. But surely, if you are just after God to get into this supposed heaven, then surely that's the worst kind of 'sin' imaginable, yet it's the option we are presented with as soon as religion enters the conversation.

On top of that, we have good people who would never hurt a fly and go through life being compassionate and gentle, yet I am told because they never accepted Jesus into their lives they are destined for hell. That it is impossible to be good unless you are *insert religion here* first.

That's enough to begin with. Flame on!

What's your theory on biological pre-conception? That is to say, what do you believe is how the earth, us, everything came to be?

i belive i am the son of the great spider. all hail the great spider! All love the great spider! even the gilgamechs love the great spider!

Here's a quote from a book by Orson Scott Card that happens to have a lot of good philosophy. One happens to pretain to 'God':

That was it. That's what the gods would be, if there were gods. They would want everyone else to have all that was good in life, just like good parents. But unlike parents or any other people, the gods would actually know what was good and have the power to cause good things to happen, even when nobody else understood that they were good. As Wiggin said, real gods would be smarter and stronger than anybody else. They would have all the intelligence and power that it was possible to have.

Job said:

What's your theory on biological pre-conception? That is to say, what do you believe is how the earth, us, everything came to be?

I'll belive in the Big Bang, Darwinism, etcetera until something better comes along.

Those theories aren't flawless by a long shot (especially evolution...) but they make enough sense for me to believe that they are closer to the truth than anything else I've read. Someone tells me giant crabs built the universe with matchsticks and elastic bands, I'll believe them and ditch the old crap so long as they can present convincing proof of their research.

The central underlying meaning of Buddhism is every man for himself.

Now behold the Goukumian story of Genesis:

!WARNING! This may be very offensive and could shake the foundations of your beliefs. Or it just might piss you off more than you could ever expect. This should not be viewed by anyone. It doesn't matter if you're 2 years old or you're a one-eyed World War I vet who has had both arms, both legs, and his ass amputated. This should not be viewed by you. Do not scroll down.





















I'm warning you. Don't scroll down. Any consequences are your own damn fault.
















Last warning: DO NOT READ THIS!!











Once apon a time, some bull took a dump. This pile turned into some guy who gave birth to a rib that turned into some chick. He then 53x0r3d up his butt baby and after many generations of incest and imbreeding, an entire world was populated. But it's all good because this messatsu guy, his name might have been Brian or Neo, died for our defects, except... humans were kicked out of paradise for starting to wear clothes.

BTW, you can find the original posting of this story by searching google for "messatsu guy"

As I see it:

In the beginning, there was this tiny bit of universe. So small, it could be lost in your pocket lint. Unfortunately for this tiny pocket of space, an insanely large amount of energy was trying to inhabit it all at the same time. This did not bode well, for it eventualy exploded, spitting existance every witch way.

So now there was this huge amout of space full of energy, which eventualy coalesced and formed into particles, which formed into atoms, which occasionaly formed into molecules. This basicaly formed millions of huge, swirling clusters of dust and gas. Something eventualy triggered these to start to clump up, which gave them gravity, which made them pull even more matter into them. First were the huge balls of gas that were so hot they became plasma. There were orbited by all kinds of debris which formed into lumps of rock. These lumps of rock slammed into each other for several billion years until there were only a few large ones left.

But when you're talking a few in an astronomical sense, that still means a lot. There are billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars, each with possibly a few planets. And when you have billions and billions of things floating around, eventualy something weird is going to happen, especialy considering the diversity of them. Some were giant globes of condenced gas, some were covered in a frozen oxygen-hydrogen compund, some were contorted by nearby gravitational activity to the point of being huge spheres of magma. One planet in particular eventualy accumulated water on it. Vast oceans of water. It also had a charged atmosphere full of electrical energy and extremely active geological activity. With this going on every day for a billion years, it eventualy made some compounds come together and for something that moved. Not moved as in pulled in by gravity. Not moved as in blown about by solar winds. Not moved as in attracted to an electron charge. It was something that moved on its own.

Eventualy these became bigger and more complex as they slowly mutated. Factors such as retroviruses and solar radiation would break down their genetic structure, creating changes. If these changes made it so the organism wouldn't be able to survive, then it would die. If itproved to be benificial, then the organism would thrive. Eventualy this created all kinds of creatures, some that found their way out of the oceans and onto dry land. Eventualy a few of these could survive there. They evoloved and grew and spread across the world. Sometimes massive disaster would wipe out half the organisms on the planet, but there was always something that survived and grew, always mutating.

Eventualy there mutated a creature. It was a kind of bipedal ape with a baldness disorder. It had the curiosity and cleverness to create things, like sharp rocks to kill stuff with, or fire to burn stuff with. Unfortunately, most members of this species lack the intellectual reflection to actualy restrain themselves. All they knew is that they were clever, more clever than anything else they encountered, so they continued to create things and kill things. They made weapons from metal they found to fight wars against each other. They made cities, clearing away anything else in their path so they could live in large numbers. They captured wild animlas, making them into slaves to be harvested for food. Eventualy they figured themselves clever enough to invent Monotheism.

Since the beginning of the species, they had tried to formulate reasons why everyhting happened as it did and where everything came from. Their limited mind were never on the mark, nor will they likely ever be. But they believed it nonetheless. Their most common explaination for these thing were 'gods' -- superpowerful humans that could do really neat stuff. They usualy had their own little domains. There were air gods, fire gods, farm gods, war gods, vagina gods. You name it, they were invented. But then someone thought "hey, what if I said there was only one god and all the rest were fake...then I could claim to be an emissary from this god and get people to follow me!"

And they did, being the dimwitted simeans they are. So the guy was like "Hey, this was easy, now lets make these people do stuff. I hate it when i stick my penis in a woman that she gets all bitchy, so I'll make it a male god so they know who's in charge. I want to kill all my enemies, so I'll make the god pro-war so I can get people to slaughter them. I also don't want infighting so I lose control, so I'll have this god preach love...but only for my people. Hahaha...this will be awesome!" And so he created a kingdom of people united together for his goal. And they followed him because they feared if they did not, they would face eternal torment when they died. This idea eventualy caught on and many people created their own One True Gods, or used other people's One True Gods, and created larger and larger empires. Soon enough, no one could remember or even imagine a life without constant following of their god.

And thus the weak prey upon the weak.

ravage said:

...Orson Scott Card...

once somebody (like me) decides to tell everyone Card is Mormon (like me!) then nobody's going to give a shit.

All I'll say is this:

Existence started as a single micron, infinitesimal in size and smaller than even the smallest virus in the world. In literally an instant, this micron of nothingness became something.

Eventaully every science and math known to man today kicked in, and the rest, as they say, is history ;)

Python_Junkie said:
Existence started as a single micron, infinitesimal in size and smaller than even the smallest virus in the world. In literally an instant, this micron of nothingness became something.

But how did something come from nothing?

And something else to think about : If something comes from nothing, then was the nothing something before there was ever the something in the nothing, and if so, what was there before nothing? If not, then it something came from nothing, then was that something also everything since nothing cannot be something to compare with the something in question? If so, that would make that something infinately big, since it is everything, wouldn't it? But at the same time, if that single something expanded into more than one something, would the bounderies of 'is' and 'isn't' also expand? Or would each something become smaller since there is now more to everything than there was before? And even more, if there are now two somethings surrounded by nothing, and it must be the type of nothing that cannot be considered something, btw, then what would be inbetween those two somethings? Would they be infinately close together, or would they create a nothing inbetween them... and if they created a nothing would it be the same nothing as surrounds them, or would it be the kind of nothing that could be considered something, making more than two somethings altogether? But if a tangible nothing were to be created between two incredibly small somethings, then that nothing(which is something) would have to be smaller than the small somethings. And even more, now that a tangible nothing is created, what bounds would it have? Would it be contained within the space separating the two somethings? If so, that would mean that existance is surrounded by a tangible barrier (that may or may not be constantly growing). But what if the new tangible nothing took the place (out of neccesity) of the intangible nothing (complete lack of any existance)? What boundaries would it have then? Would it have any? What would this tangible nothing contain? Or to defeat the purpose, can there ever be a tangible nothing? So many confusing questions...

EllipsusD said:

But how did something come from nothing?

And something else to think about: If something comes from nothing, then was the nothing something before there was ever the something in the nothing, and if so, what was there before nothing? If not, then it something came from nothing, then was that something also everything since nothing cannot be something to compare with the something in question? If so, that would make that something infinately big, since it is everything, wouldn't it? But at the same time, if that single something expanded into more than one something, would the bounderies of 'is' and 'isn't' also expand? Or would each something become smaller since there is now more to everything than there was before? And even more, if there are now two somethings surrounded by nothing, and it must be the type of nothing that cannot be considered something, btw, then what would be inbetween those two somethings? Would they be infinately close together, or would they create a nothing inbetween them... and if they created a nothing would it be the same nothing as surrounds them, or would it be the kind of nothing that could be considered something, making more than two somethings altogether? But if a tangible nothing were to be created between two incredibly small somethings, then that nothing(which is something) would have to be smaller than the small somethings. And even more, now that a tangible nothing is created, what bounds would it have? Would it be contained within the space separating the two somethings? If so, that would mean that existance is surrounded by a tangible barrier (that may or may not be constantly growing). But what if the new tangible nothing took the place (out of neccesity) of the intangible nothing (complete lack of any existance)? What boundaries would it have then? Would it have any? What would this tangible nothing contain? Or to defeat the purpose, can there ever be a tangible nothing? So many confusing questions...

Time is just another dimension. "Before" the Big Bang has no meaning. It is possible to have a Universe of finite size with no boundaries or "edge".

The way I see it, God created the Big Bang and all the theories and processes that make it exist. Basically he said "You figure it out."

Or he could have just said 'fuck it.'

The beginning of God is beyond out capacity of understanding.

Apparently.

heh

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. ....



And you could see for fucking miles!

thought this was about a song by megadeath o.o

but anyway i read the last 3 posts, and here is what i think :P

How is time created before time, and how did that time get created? and so on? How do thing *just* start? Its mind blowing, i mean if you get really deep and think about it. When did time start? 0.0 my brain hurts if i think about it too much =P

@fodders: lmao

go read "brief history of time"

I stated my opinion before, but I'll state it agian. GOD exsists. Everything needs something to begin with. Time didnt just start up, nor the universe. God said "let there be light" and because he said that, a chain reaction occured that cause the formation of all light. For example, Him just saying "let there be man" could have caused a simple, single-celled organism to mutate and, even thought thousands of years had to pass before its offspring became modern humans, to Him it was a mere instant. God works outside of time, and it's possible the guys who wrote the Bible didnt think about that part. God knows what we will do if we follow his religion, but I think he's now curious as to what we do if we DONT follow him. Thats why he's become so laid back. His "sucessful faiure" now interests him, and he wants to wait. Thats my theory. But it's just that; just a theory. Debate all you like.

i just said go read "brief history of time"

Zell said:

thought this was about a song by megadeath o.o

but anyway i read the last 3 posts, and here is what i think :P

How is time created before time, and how did that time get created? and so on? How do thing *just* start? Its mind blowing, i mean if you get really deep and think about it. When did time start? 0.0 my brain hurts if i think about it too much =P

@fodders: lmao

This dimension was created by someone from another dimension who was created by someone from another dimension who was created by someone from another dimension.....

læmænt said:

i just said go read "brief history of time"

Well, I cant find the damn thing, and I dont have time to read. And besides, I chose what I believe in. I may disagree on some things with the "Breif history of time." I want to find my own answers, not get them handed to me in an easy-to-read format, like some books I know that are full of crap.

In regards to religion, best quote. Ever.

"The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others."
Bertrand Russell

Sir Blastalot said:

like some books I know that are full of crap.

The Bible?

I don't know what caused you to form that negative opinion about Christianity, darknation, but if you ever want to have a *real* debate, get an opinion that doesn't focus on only the negative aspects of religion. Or Hell, just take time to actually learn about it, 'cause if you did, your opinion would be different. Like educated. And not ignorant. But anyways:

Yeh, I believe in God. I'm not gonna throw down anything else, 'cause it won't matter.

I stated my opinion before, but I'll state it agian. GOD exsists. . . . But it's just that; just a theory. Debate all you like.

This theory rox0rs. This is the same basic idea I have. Not a separation of God and science, but rather a union, with both working in tandum. For example, I saw some documentary on TechTV which informed me that certain types of muscular attributes, which determine help whether you're a good sprinter or marathon runner, were passed along by a certain gene. At first I said, "Well, there goes that whole God-given gifts theory." But then I realized that simply must be how God does things. He isn't just magic; He accomplishes things thorugh actual scientific methods.

EDIT:

"The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others."
Bertrand Russell

That quote ain't right. It's what happens a lot, but it ain't right. Tell you what. Dredge up some specific examples and then we can have a jolly debate.

I don't believe in God. If there ever was one, sooner or later it will be discovered in scientific terms. Now, many physicists are proposing that "God" exists in the form of strings within the 11th dimension (M-theory: Bosonic + Heterotic string theory).

Soon, there will be other emergent theories about the origin of everything. If that's the God pple are talking about (eg. Big Bang is a minion of God :P), then I'm probably a believer too.

Sir Blastalot said:

Well, I cant find the damn thing, and I dont have time to read. And besides, I chose what I believe in. I may disagree on some things with the "Breif history of time." I want to find my own answers, not get them handed to me in an easy-to-read format, like some books I know that are full of crap.

Except it's a goddamn science book

fraggle said:
Time is just another dimension. "Before" the Big Bang has no meaning. It is possible to have a Universe of finite size with no boundaries or "edge".

Before has no meaning? I'm not sure I understand that. I suppose if you were thinking in abstract terms that would work, but as I see it I typed the word 'Before' prior to typing the word 'meaning', ya know? Existence is a sequence of events, on leading to another, and inevitably one state of existence must exist before another state of existence. If you can say that there was something before now, then you can also say that there was something before then. Then in this case just happens to be the Big Bang (though I was not limiting the meaning of my post to that). Even a state of there being no state is a state that can be placed before the Big Bang, so it would make sense that "before" can be used in such a way. Unless, like I said, you are talking about a more abstract take on it.

As for it being possible for the universe to be finite and have no edge... well, it doesn't necessarily have to have a solid edge of matter in the way I had mentioned, but for it to be finite there must be a point where it does not go any further (and there most likely is no existence beyond it). That point, as infintesimal, intangible, and unstable as it may be is still an 'edge' none the less.

Grimm said:

That quote ain't right. It's what happens a lot, but it ain't right. Tell you what. Dredge up some specific examples and then we can have a jolly debate.

What, you mean like those people that go around and ask me what religion I am and when I reply that I have no religion they go into a long argument about why God is great and why I am going to Hell. Then they won't shut up so I have to run off or some shit. Eats 5 minutes of my day.

A specific example would be this Moslem guy who contacted me on ICQ out of the blue, right after I got it installed on thsi computer. He started by asking my religion (as usual). When I told him I wasn't religious he started trying to explain God through mathematics which made no fucking sense. He kept on ranting until I blocked hiom 2 hours later.

Oh, and I guess a more universal example would be the Inquisition or the Crusades where they slaughtered thousands for not believing in the exact same god as then.

Then you could go to a smaller but more shining example like AndrewB, who apparently lives in a bubble. Thopugh he isnt religious (not noticeably at least) he acts like he's the crowning moment of glory and whenever someone talks about something fun they do he moans about how we're idiots for doing it.

Um, need any more?

EllipsusD said:

Before has no meaning? I'm not sure I understand that. I suppose if you were thinking in abstract terms that would work, but as I see it I typed the word 'Before' prior to typing the word 'meaning', ya know? Existence is a sequence of events, on leading to another, and inevitably one state of existence must exist before another state of existence. If you can say that there was something before now, then you can also say that there was something before then. Then in this case just happens to be the Big Bang (though I was not limiting the meaning of my post to that). Even a state of there being no state is a state that can be placed before the Big Bang, so it would make sense that "before" can be used in such a way. Unless, like I said, you are talking about a more abstract take on it.

As for it being possible for the universe to be finite and have no edge... well, it doesn't necessarily have to have a solid edge of matter in the way I had mentioned, but for it to be finite there must be a point where it does not go any further (and there most likely is no existence beyond it). That point, as infintesimal, intangible, and unstable as it may be is still an 'edge' none the less.

go read "brief history of time"

EllipsusD said:

Before has no meaning? I'm not sure I understand that. I suppose if you were thinking in abstract terms that would work, but as I see it I typed the word 'Before' prior to typing the word 'meaning', ya know? Existence is a sequence of events, on leading to another, and inevitably one state of existence must exist before another state of existence. If you can say that there was something before now, then you can also say that there was something before then. Then in this case just happens to be the Big Bang (though I was not limiting the meaning of my post to that). Even a state of there being no state is a state that can be placed before the Big Bang, so it would make sense that "before" can be used in such a way. Unless, like I said, you are talking about a more abstract take on it.

As for it being possible for the universe to be finite and have no edge... well, it doesn't necessarily have to have a solid edge of matter in the way I had mentioned, but for it to be finite there must be a point where it does not go any further (and there most likely is no existence beyond it). That point, as infintesimal, intangible, and unstable as it may be is still an 'edge' none the less.

Well, quantum theorists believe that everything is governed, directly or indirectly, by a single wave function which manifests in the "infinite-dimensional" Hilbert Space. The Big Bang is probably one of the many possibilities (superpositions) resulting from decoherence.

Read that somewhere, so I may not be totally correct. But no one says that quantum theorists must be right as well...

læmænt said:

go read "brief history of time"

Go read "The Elegant Universe".

læmænt said:
go read "brief history of time"

Is that the solution to everything in this thread?

I'll read it when I get a chance to.