Converted Doomer's First Map

As some of you may know, I have started to edit map four weeks ago, and with the help of many people, I was able to close the knowledge gap rather quickly =).

After playing many, many maps, I quickly became dissatisfied with what is being put out there; 70% of all maps released did not meet my sky-high expectations of atmosphere and gameplay, and those that was good had to end too soon... and therefore I had to do something about it...

I created a level of my own, in which I piled on four-hundred monsters, over a medium-sized area... a week later... I gutted the level, expanded it, and the monster count skyrocketed to 3200+.

I wasn't happy with the way it turned out, so I am in the process of gutting my level for a third and final time, it is currently devoid of items and monsters.

This map currently has 7440 linedefs and 864 sectors, the target of the third iteration is ~2000 sectors, and the surface area doubling. It will pile on details after details after details, and the fights will be huge and small.

There are new pictures for people who already saw it, plus retakes.
http://www.geocities.com/aaarogance/

Feel free to opine and criticize, I will directly respond to what you all have to say, by answering your questions and modding the map based on the critique

Come think of it, this map is the product of 20+ opinions.

F***ing Oldschool!


BTW, is all that stuff from same level? Quite some diversity in styles, but it's all done solidly.

BTW, isn't that ammo stash in the tech room a bit too much?

Well, I really wouldnt call that detailed. But it looks ok for a first map. The hellish areas seem like they'd be an eyesore though. Maybe that's just a product of the source port in which these screenshots were taken.

I think you got the temple-like areas right.


And yeah, it may not be the most übar-detailed wad to date, but there has clearly been made an attempt to make it look good.

I like it, but I still take offense at the garga ammo stashes. Such tend to make for some lame plasma- and BFG spamming.

The hellish temple screenies look excellent. But I don't get why you try to cram so many styles into one map.

Little Faith said: ..but I still take offense at the garga ammo stashes. Such tend to make for some lame plasma- and BFG spamming.

that ammunition could be piled up there for a reason, though..
who knows - maybe there is a room filled with rocket-spamming cyberdeamons behind the next corner. nevertheless, it's a bit too much ammunition per 64x64-sized square in that room.

you could try balancing out the ammo if you're not already doing that, ie, use fewer ammo pickups in easier modes because they're worth more, and more ammo pickups in harder modes just because they aren't worth shit.

also, this is looking very nice for a first map. better than mine. :)

scarecrow said:

ie, use fewer ammo pickups in easier modes because they're worth more, and more ammo pickups in harder modes just because they aren't worth shit.

From memory, on skill settings 2,3 and 4 ammo values are worth the same. On skill setting 1 and 5 ammo pickup values are doubled compared to their 2,3,4 values. You cannot distinguish between which items appear on skills 1 and 2 or on skills 4 and 5 so tweaking things in the way you seem to be suggesting probably isn't the way to go.

Those are cool shots! But in the Hellish Temple, why are there crosses?

Maybe the demons haven't got round to inverting them yet. Or maybe the demons are trying to be ironic or something. :-)

insertwackynamehere said:

Those are cool shots! But in the Hellish Temple, why are there crosses?

Probably because the demons have taken over / desecrated a human temple......

BTW, isn't that ammo stash in the tech room a bit too much?

Sure is a little bit too much for my taste, as mentioned in post number one, the whole level is gutted and currently devoid of any items or monsters, leaving only torches and decorations. For now I will double the details and expand the levels, afterwards, I will place the monsters in the appropriate geography.

Well, I really wouldnt call that detailed. But it looks ok for a first map. The hellish areas seem like they'd be an eyesore though. Maybe that's just a product of the source port in which these screenshots were taken.

Quite the sky-high standards you got there eh? Assmaster? I will try to address the detail problems, and the hellish areas are just beta shots; I created in 15 minutes prior to the update. Rest assured, all things are to be polished to the nth degree before anyone has a chance to complain.

who knows - maybe there is a room filled with rocket-spamming cyberdeamons behind the next corner.

You'd better believe there is, I'm not so stupid to give that much ammo away.
In the case of an extremely large level with extreme counts of monsters, the discrepancy of ammo usage differs greatly from player to player. Take this scenario: you are locked in a labyrinth with a trio of cyberdemons, minus the BFG, the ammo balance immediately goes out the window, and the rockets/cell surplus will no longer matter. This, however, will not mean that I will pile on legions of monsters to hide the ammo surplus... it just means that I will have to smarten up the fights. Also, there will be a point in the level (hell) where the player will get ganged up by massive amount of barons, I would not think spoiling the players with rockets/cells will make the fight dull. And the BFG... haha... once you get the BFG... the Post-Mortem difficulty will finally show itself.

But I don't get why you try to cram so many styles into one map.

If Doom had 20 textures, my map would have... 20 textures... If Doom had 400 textures, my map would have... 400 textures... If Doom--

Those are cool shots! But in the Hellish Temple, why are there crosses?

Because the demons are faithful church-going Christians, duh.

Converted DOOMer said:

Quite the sky-high standards you got there eh? Assmaster? I will try to address the detail problems, and the hellish areas are just beta shots; I created in 15 minutes prior to the update. Rest assured, all things are to be polished to the nth degree before anyone has a chance to complain.

Well no, dont stress yourself out over it. It's not a big deal if a map doesnt have 10 billion lines. The only reason I mentioned it as because there's little indication of what the gameplay will be like. Which is the most important part.

I'll implement the gameplay in two weeks, and instead of showing you pictures, I decided to post the beta online for those of you who gives a damn about it. http://www.geocities.com/aaarogance/. It's the ATTRITION.zip.

Run through the level, observe the architecture, and tell me what you think. Remember, all your opinions matter, no matter how absurd they may be ;).

Converted DOOMer said:

If Doom had 20 textures, my map would have... 20 textures... If Doom had 400 textures, my map would have... 400 textures... If Doom--

Uhm, what is the point of that, that just make your map look stupid. But what do I know, its your map. But you have like 10themes in that map already (maybe more), even wolfstein textures which look so fucking stupid.

Because the demons are faithful church-going Christians, duh.

Uhm, maybe they should have been upside / down, instead of these normal crosses. Btw, the best parts in your maps is the marble rooms, the rest is looking... I dunno. But it is fine for a first map.

This must be one of the worst maps ever. Has some potential though.

For starters, let me say that this is pretty good for a first map. That said...

The combination of themes just didnt work for me. Especially with the transitions (or lack of) from one to the other
This area for example, just goes straight from tech to wolfenstein. And it just doesnt make any sense. I believe there was another area that goes from wood to nukage/tech which also looked pretty bad.

Variable ceiling heights are your friend.

There's a good number of errors that need to be fixed:
I dont think I have to explain this
Raise the floor of that window thingy up a few units
Use a donut shaped sector so that this doesnt happen.

Also, most places are in severe need of detail. The starting room, for example, is enormous and barren. And please make some indication of what type of key a door will need, using some appropriate textures.

There's some really good use of lighting though. And the marble areas look good.

Most of all though, keep working at it :)

I don't what everyone has against this map. I'm not allowed to d/l anything, because after a computer crash about 4 months ago (yes no d/ling for 4 months in counting :-P) my dad hasn't allowed me to download stuff. But when I get my new computer, I'll be allowed to, so anyway, my point is, from the screenshots, even the ones taken by other people, this looks awesome.

Better than my first map.

Erik said:

But I don't get why you try to cram so many styles into one map.

Eh, it's like a megawad mixed into one map!

This must be one of the worst maps ever. Has some potential though.

Can't please everyone, sorry about that.

The combination of themes just didnt work for me. Especially with the transitions (or lack of) from one to the other
This area for example, just goes straight from tech to wolfenstein. And it just doesnt make any sense. I believe there was another area that goes from wood to nukage/tech which also looked pretty bad.

Yeah, the transition may be one of the worst problem in this map, I'll probably try to improve on it by not making the transitions so drastic. The wood to nukage/tech is a toughie to fix. Hopefully, the gameplay will compensate for some of the shortcommings.

Variable ceiling heights are your friend.

I'm going to destroy that room, no question about it. If the marble area is currently the best part of my map, then the hell area will dethrone it soon.

Raise the floor of that window thingy up a few units

Since the window is connected to the room that's about to be destroyed, some things are bound to change =)

Use a donut shaped sector so this doesn't happen.

Got it.

Uhm, what is the point of that, that just make your map look stupid. But what do I know, its your map. But you have like 10themes in that map already (maybe more), even wolfstein textures which look so fucking stupid.

Some things can be changed, such as the wolfenstein room, but I will not go so far as to demolish my library. I'd rather have a brutal, honest opinion than brainless patronizing. Keep criticizing some more, the map thrives on it.

Oh, and this map is also tailor-made for co-op: all the doors and traps will not permanently shut you in, if you have a buddy...

Converted DOOMer said:

Some things can be changed, such as the wolfenstein room, but I will not go so far as to demolish my library. I'd rather have a brutal, honest opinion than brainless patronizing. Keep criticizing some more, the map thrives on it.

Oh, and this map is also tailor-made for co-op: all the doors and traps will not permanently shut you in, if you have a buddy...

I didn't say you should delete these rooms, but the tech look stupid with the marble, maybe you should stick with just hell, marble and wood?

How long does it take for a site that has become temporarily unavailable due to traffic to become available again?

Thats Geocities bandwith limit.You all Tried To Download his map and by too many clicks sent to the server,the bandwith was hit.

But Aside From that,Converted Doomer Will Allow me To Add this map As a Secret Level To Tale of Doom.He Will Also map for me,After Atrrition is done that is.I Dont See why so many people dont like this map first off.I have never seen a map combine diffrent themes into one.His map will be a very playable map for level 31 of Tod though hehe.

ShadowRunner said:

I Like To Write Like This Even Though It Looks Retarded

Please stop writing like that! It's very annoying and confusing.

I tore up the wolfenstein room, and remade it into something more favorable... a demanded transition between tech and wood.

Yes i saw that doomer.Wonder how big your map truly be.

Gotta type shortly cuz im in school right now.

The current stats standing:

- 10,490 vertices
- 11,740 linedefs/20,195 sidedefs
- 1,267 sectors
- 1678 things
- 185 tags

zero HOMs, virtually non-existent texture allignment.

Alright, the transitional problems resulting from the multiple themes are somewhat remedied, but by no exent is it eliminated. The details have been bumped up a notch for some areas, and as a corollary, I decided to release another beta for all of you who cared enough to critique and point out the problems.

Please, download it and tell me your honest opinion.
http://www.geocities.com/aaarogance/
Under the file AttritionBeta.zip
Screenshots are also updated.

Wow, that's A LOT of imps.

Well, from what I've seen so far (the imps always get me), it's looking much better than your previous version. Im not thrilled with the water pools (I think they look far too out of place), but I wont go as far as to say that they should be removed.

This definetely needs to be fixed though. I assume it's because the main texture is taller than the difference between the floor and ceiling heights. In that case just raise the ceiling until it's no longer an issue.

I'll be provide a better critique when I get past those imps.