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LorD BaZTArD

Ports and Oldschool

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Opulent said:
Real authors still make wads for the real game. port support of any kind is just gravy, besides, if there is something that a port cannot do that DOOM can, then I'd say the port is broken. This is still DOOMworld.com, not ZDOOMworld.com

No, No damnit! This is exactly why I tell freinds of mine to avoid the doom community, I encourage them to play the odd megawad or map like Massmouth or Helms deep but avoid the rest because of this fucking ridiculous notion that you have to keep doom pure. It fucking pisses me off. We have technology now, far advanced of what the original doom could accomplish, christ Quake 3 is 5 years old now and it's still one of the better looking and most capable engines. QUAKE ONE is 7 and have a look at Tenebrae 2! (http://www.tenebrae2.com/screenshots/tenebrae2_tb-base_07.jpg) People make stuff with both engines and they get stunning results.

At the same time you lot still whine and bitch that doom was never meant to be played at 1024x768. Grow up. Take advantage of the ports we have, because they make enough improvements to make the game better. MUCH BETTER. Case in point: Any Cyb map for Zdoom. Ultimate Doomer's Zdoom maps and the recently released Daedalus by Team TNT. Think of it this way: Jdoom can do incredible eyecandy but apart from that it is still primitive compared to Zdoom. Zdoomgl is in early stages now but when that is closer to be ready we will have zdoom features with pretty graphics. I can't wait to play a Zdoom wad with High-res textures and 3D Models and every mapping feature possible. Granted the fact that it'll probably never happen if this "pure" attitude continues. If zdoom ever gets true 3D then you could pull off even more detailed levels, these features can enhance a game tenfold, you can tell better stories or describe better action if you add a little detail.

Leave the pure mentality behind and adapt. Every time I tell someone I still play doom, I get asked why......and I can't give anyone a good enough reason, No-one except us cares about doom anymore and we are not significant enough for anyone to care about. Give people a reason to play doom, show them what the community is capable of and you might get less "Doom? Doom sucks because it is old and ugly" comments.

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LorD BaZTArD, who needs that crap on a thread about Hell Revealed II? Make a new thread or blog it. The wad in question was designed and tested with Doom2 (and close compatibles like PrBoom) in mind. And if there's a glich when playing it with an engine that has slopes, scripting and other editing stuff as main features (as opposed to being a straight port of the game,) the users of that engine can't much complain to the wad authors. They have many ways around this issue, as explained on the thread; anything from using another engine to just deleting the menu lump. Note also that if it weren't for ZDoom users requesting backwards compatibilities alongside with new features, ZDoom would probably just get borked here or there on Hell Revealed II, if it doesn't now anyway.

And why is Hell Revealed aimed at Doom2 and similar engines? Simple, and you should have known this by now; because it follows the 1st wad of the series that has made such a strong mark in demo recording and play, and there is no better way to compare and continue such recordings and play than to again do it on the same platform (Doom2, or at least demo/play compatibility with it.)

Finally, if in any way Opulent sounded biased in any way, you didn't sound any less so... possibly quite more. I mean, your anti "old school" rant, who gives a shit? Over here in the "DOOM community" there's a variety of people participating in many different projects, everything from totally Doom2 comaptible play and recording to the realease of quite bizarre mods that are very much unlike DOOM from both tech and aesthetic perspectives. You're going to tell people who like playing DOOM using Doom, at this point, after they've already checked (or even use to one degree or another nowadays) source mods of all kinds to move on... and you believe they'll care? I mean Opulent isn't against source mods or their development in any way; he does even link to ZDoom releases on his demos page, participates in projects that aren't for genuine DOOM itself, and plays newer games like most people do. He does have appreciation for the original game as is alongside all that, as any decent player should. But what do you have, a rant about "moving on" in a thread about an old school wad?

You might as well continue to get pissed off and, if you wish, even choke on your stupidity. I'm sure you're better than that, though.

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Myk, Where are they then? Where all these non doom projects? Show me. Also, why did I pick a Thread about hell revealed 2? Because it's yet another of many threads where someone has made some stupid anti-port comment. Biased or not, I'm sick of this pure doom shit. I've said the same thing many times. I'm not anti-old school at all either, I'm against holding back something because of some odd attatchment to it's original form. I love doom, I always will. I wanna see something special, and a Megawad that does the exact same as it's several year old predecessor isn't progress to me.

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and still playing a 10 year old game is progress? meh, doom is doom and it always will be.

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Too bad, dude, you're gonna have to live with it. As I said, why post here if you're not even interested in the release, except in ranting against it or what it represents? And get it into your (thick?) skull: Opulent's post isn't "anti-port" just because he particularly likes the actual game and can differentiate between it and mods made for it. If I were like you I guess I'd go to this or that mod's thread and rant about how they're deforming DOOM... just imagine the stupidity.

And progress... I'd say all the new maps, and the challenge they offer to all the players who enjoy them, and all the great demos being produced sure are progress.

As for the really bizarre mods that you don't see; go make them yourself.

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"If I were like you I guess I'd go to this or that mod's thread and rant about how they're deforming DOOM... just imagine the stupidity"

WTF? How you derive that from my post is beyond me. I wouldn't do that, because I'm all for new ideas. Opulents post was anti port. He may not normally be anti-port but that comment wasn't needed.

If you can honestly tell me that: "Real authors still make wads for the real game. port support of any kind is just gravy.
besides, if there is something that a port cannot do that DOOM can, then I'd say the port is broken" is not anti-port then well, too bad.

I also never said I wasn't interested in the release. This was NEVER against Hell Revealed 2. I'll play hell revealed 2. I just want something different.

"and still playing a 10 year old game is progress? meh, doom is doom and it always will be" Lord...oh lord, this is my entire point again, an attitude like that is ridiculous. Especially coming from Erik, Who I must add, has made some great maps in the past. Just because a game is old doesn't mean you can't make a great mod/tc with it. Funnily enough, the subject of this thread is a prime example.

An old game doom might be, but the source ports are proof that the community is alive and kicking. I want it to kick harder.

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LorD BaZTArD said:
WTF? How you derive that from my post is beyond me. I wouldn't do that, because I'm all for new ideas. Opulents post was anti port. He may not normally be anti-port but that comment wasn't needed.

Yes, it is beyond you. Did I say if I were you? I never said I'd share your "new school" viewpoint. And I don't think you have the authority to tell anyone here what posts are "needed," heh.

LorD BaZTArD wrote:
If you can honestly tell me that: "Real authors still make wads for the real game. port support of any kind is just gravy.
besides, if there is something that a port cannot do that DOOM can, then I'd say the port is broken" is not anti-port then well, too bad.

"Real game" and "real authors," got that? And I'm sure you know what the difference is between the words port and mod, and that this is the Hell Revealed II thread. If you recall all this, you might be able to understand the comment.

LorD BaZTarD sputtered:
I also never said I wasn't interested in the release. This was NEVER against Hell Revealed 2. I'll play hell revealed 2. I just want something different.

Ah... I guess we had your signature as a disclaimer here.

And what did Erik do now? Do you have any more people to single out as guilty of destroying your source mod dream or whatever?

LorD BaZTArD claimed:
An old game doom might be, but the source ports are proof that the community is alive and kicking. I want it to kick harder.

Okay... as you can see a big part of the activity is not directly related to the source code release... that seems to bother or hurt you somehow. I can't help you there, really.

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Lord Baztard, yes, my post was anti-port... but I do support and use several ports regularly. I enjoy DOOM in many forms, but there is no port than can MATCH the real game in playability.
and that's why I still prefer it.
all of your comments would have a strong argument IF that wasn't true.
I don't play this game for graphics or any other superfluous affectation, DOOM is all about the gameplay.
Hell Revealed 2 is all about the gameplay; that is why it is for doom2.exe.(hence my argument)
Massmouth or Helm's Deep or Void or whatever are all cool in their own right... and I've definitely enjoyed each of those; but I'd rather play Eulogy or Runaway instead.
frankly, I'd say you are a bit misguided if you are trying to make DOOM into DOOM3; but that's just my opinion.
reminds me of 'historians' in the past who cut the edges off paintings and repaint them to 'make them last longer' or the geniuses who cut the beginnings and endings off of sound recordings(like the Beatles' music) for CDs just to 'bring it up to the current technology'. enhancements or developments around the original work is fine (read: Q3A-OSP) but altering the game is nothing more than a footnote and runs the risk of overshadowing the real work(read: Q3A-CPMA).
the DOOM ports are damn cool... I don't know how many times I've said "Wow, that's neat."; but they have their place and the real game has it's place.
My point was that port support for HR2 was nothing more than an afterthought. This is a megawad made for the real players by some of the best players; and the best players use the real game(or a doom.exe compatibility mode option :).
peace, man, let's all enjoy this game in our own way.

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Myk, I may not have the "authority" to say what post was needed or not, but this was a thread about Hell Revealed 2, then Opulent goes and makes a post like that, I don't think it was needed and it was a silly thing to post IMO.

Myk wheezed out
Did I say if I were you? I never said I'd share your "new school" viewpoint.

No you said if you were like me, you would go make a flame post about some other mod, which is not something I would do. Sorry that you think I would.

I do know the difference between a port and a mod, and you keep mentioning the fact this is a hell revealed thread, I do know this. A port is a rewrite/extension of the games original code. A mod replaces the resources. However used together, a mod can become infinitely better, because it can take advantages of new features of the port while keeping the strengths of the original game. Stop trying to change the subject by constantly mentioning what thread it is and by attacking my signature. For I might add, no reason whatsoever. *Sig is inspired by an old 50's radio show btw*

Myk also coughed up
And what did Erik do now? Do you have any more people to single out as guilty of destroying your source mod dream or whatever?

Guilty of my source mod dream? WTF are you on about? All I want to see is some clever levels using ideas that were not possible with the original doom. Careless comments by Erik just highlight my point that not enough people are willing to test the limits of doom's current capabilities.

Myk chokes out
"Real game" and "real authors," got that?

What's are you trying to say here? that ports are not the real game? That port maps aren't real maps? That people who make port maps are not real doom mappers? Christ I hope that's not what you meant. Becuase that's a god damned stupid thing to say

Myk finally gets it
Okay... as you can see a big part of the activity is not directly related to the source code release... that seems to bother or hurt you somehow. I can't help you there, really.

YES! BULLSEYE! Finally! You hit the nail on the head. Although it doesn't hurt me, just bothers me. For all the features that the ports can do, they are not getting used. I really don't understand why, and this has been my point the whole time. You might finally see the point between my veiwpoint and Opulents statement which was basically dismissing the usefullness of ports. We have advanced beyond the "Get the key, look for the new area and blow monsters up over and over again" form of gameplay. I've seen that hundreds of times before, I want something new.

Now, to opulent: Keep in mind that although it was your post I attacked opulent, this was never personally against you. I'm sure you know this though. I agree with you on the fact that doom is all about the gameplay, but graphics don't hurt it either. Infact sometimes they can enhance a game without hurting the gameplay. I mean what is the point of these GL ports if no-one uses them? Really? All these possibilities and new ways to present the same classic game to newer players who can't stand pixels? Alot of my freind like playing doom, they like seeing what gems pop up from this community every now and again, but I also know that they hate it's shitty graphics, and won't play it for just that reason. It's a shallow reason, yes, but can you blame them? Really? 320x240 hurts my eyes these days, everything is so blocky you lose all the visible detail. Ports are good in that respect. Everything is nice and clear.

I don't agree with you on your statement that "Hell Revealed 2 is all about the gameplay; that is why it is for doom2.exe.(hence my argument) Massmouth or Helm's Deep or Void or whatever are all cool in their own right... and I've definitely enjoyed each of those; but I'd rather play Eulogy or Runaway instead" Man, you don't need to keep a game on the original exe to signify it has gameplay. I'll play HR2 on zdoom when I download it. Massmouth and Helms Deep have great gameplay. Just because they don't play the same way as doom doesn't mean they have less gameplay than an original.exe map. It's just presented differently. A Zdoom map is no less a map than an doom.exe map. Again this is what I'm protesting. I'm not trying to make Doom into Doom3 either, I just think we should keep up with the modern technology, just a bit. We'd have more players and more people in the community this way.

"My point was that port support for HR2 was nothing more than an afterthought. This is a megawad made for the real players by some of the best players; and the best players use the real game(or a doom.exe compatibility mode option :) peace, man, let's all enjoy this game in our own way"

Yeah, an afterthought, which is why it's broken in ports. I don't think that's really wise. IMO. Again you say what myk has been saying, in that "real doomers don't use ports to play doom" which is what I disagree with.

And Finally: "peace, man, let's all enjoy this game in our own way"
Ok, I'll do that, I'll keep playing zdoom. You can keep playing doom.exe, just don't ignore the ports and dismiss them as an afterthought.

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I think this thread needs to be split.

Mr. NobodX: Another tip for map32 would be to watch Vile's fantastic UV Max demos, or Erik's cool UV Speed run (which is based on an old Hegyi demo). This is the relevant thread - see the first post for the FTP details.

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Ok, that's fine by me. Move my rant to Everything else. I was going to end up making a thread saying this in EE or General eventually anyway. So it belongs there. I'd like to continue the discussion there as well.

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I can't do that myself; it was a suggestion to Bloodshedder or a passing supermod. I think Classic Doom General would be the right place for the non-HR2 discussion.

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LorD BaZTArD said:
No you said if you were like me, you would go make a flame post about some other mod, which is not something I would do. Sorry that you think I would.

No, read what we posted again and tell me if you can come up with something more accurate; explaining bores me (and I'll spend my quota below anyway.)

LorD BaZTArD stated:
I do know the difference between a port and a mod, and you keep mentioning the fact this is a hell revealed thread, I do know this. A port is a rewrite/extension of the games original code. A mod replaces the resources.

We're talking about engines here, leave those resources out of this, please. A mod is a game modification, and a port is simply the transfer of a game engine to another platform (be it another OS or a new gaming environment.) Of course, porting often requires changes (the limitations on the GameBoy versions, for instance) but the differences between adaptation changes and extra added features are obvious enough. Changes that can impact compatibility with add-ons made for the actual, genuine game in one way or another. Sometimes the effect of these changes are obvious, and sometimes new incompatibilities are discovered (and then sometimes the source mod makers amend these as well as they can, supposedly without limiting the aim of their mods.) Some source mods are very good as acting as ports (such as the genuine Boom offshoots.) Others don't do a bad job, but can have certain drawbacks here or there, simply because of the direction their makers chose.

LorD BaZTArD postulated:
However used together, a mod can become infinitely better, because it can take advantages of new features of the port while keeping the strengths of the original game.

Depends. Not if you want simple, fast and furious action like DOOM naturally offers, with an arcade-like environment suitable for speedrunning and such. Plus, source mods have a limited scope, whereas the actual game is the solid base for all this activity, and is often supported by the source mods to a pretty good degree. Source mods are many and varied, and choosing one often excludes others. And you never know whether they will last; one day the developer dies or gets married, and the next another mod is on the rise; they are good for novelty value releases, but on a smaller scale in time (and tied inevitably to the pages that support the mods.) Genuine DOOM wads might or might not become popular, but once they do, they are pretty much universal in respect to the DOOM community.

LorD BaZTArD moaned:
Stop trying to change the subject by constantly mentioning what thread it is and by attacking my signature. For I might add, no reason whatsoever. *Sig is inspired by an old 50's radio show btw*

Try and stop me, hah! (Like I tried changing the subject, anyway.) Anyhow, the fact that you so wonderfully made sense between your sig and your post did amuse me.

Quoth LorD BaZTArD:
Guilty of my source mod dream? WTF are you on about? All I want to see is some clever levels using ideas that were not possible with the original doom. Careless comments by Erik just highlight my point that not enough people are willing to test the limits of doom's current capabilities.

Guilty of your source mod dream? Heh.

DOOM's capabilities haven't changed since like '95; you must be talking about the capabilities of source mods. Anyway, what's so careless about his comment, have you seen all the great maps he's released lately? Those, alongside his fine demo recordings have certainly been quite enjoyable.

LorD BaZTArD exclaimed:
YES! BULLSEYE! Finally! You hit the nail on the head. Although it doesn't hurt me, just bothers me. For all the features that the ports can do, they are not getting used. I really don't understand why, and this has been my point the whole time. You might finally see the point between my veiwpoint and Opulents statement which was basically dismissing the usefullness of ports. We have advanced beyond the "Get the key, look for the new area and blow monsters up over and over again" form of gameplay. I've seen that hundreds of times before, I want something new.

But hey, source mods aren't that much useful to me... I mean, I like the fact that some of them allow people to enjoy the game pretty much as it is on their (newer) chosen OSs, and that other engines allow people to pursue their own mod/add-on ideas without having to complain about the actual (real) game's limits, but I never asked for them myself, and never much liked the user-request styled development of many of the engines. I respect the engines that have a definite vision more than the ones that accomodate to tech conditions or just bunch together features by demand. I have no intention to "advance" beyond blasting monsters (neither as a designer, nor as a player); what's more, I do that again and again when I have the opportunity and time, and it's just as fun as yesterday, if not more. So it seems like I won't satisfy your demands or desires! I'll have fun doing what I like, though. Cool, huh?

LorD BaZTArD ranted:
I mean what is the point of these GL ports if no-one uses them? Really? All these possibilities and new ways to present the same classic game to newer players who can't stand pixels? Alot of my freind like playing doom, they like seeing what gems pop up from this community every now and again, but I also know that they hate it's shitty graphics, and won't play it for just that reason. It's a shallow reason, yes, but can you blame them? Really? 320x240 hurts my eyes these days, everything is so blocky you lose all the visible detail. Ports are good in that respect. Everything is nice and clear.

Your point being? You know this is about Hell Revealed II, and that the argument started about some issue with ZDoom... requests from players have made ZDoom somewhat more backwards compatible than before, but obviously, since the mod has its own editing-based aims, alterations often bring up differences like this menu issue. Are you afraid Opulent's post will suddenly stop everyone from using GL-based engines or something? Both JDoom and GLBoom do a pretty good job sticking to standard DOOM functionality, especially the latter with its compatibility modes. Of course, for competitive purposes, and due to the wad's nature, it's quite sensible to stick to Doom2 for play, especially demo recording, with PrBoom and Eternity, with their compatibility modes, for those who don't have Windows 98 or such, or (more rarely) those who for some reason have issues with 320x200 resolution (which is just fine for DOOM, if you ask me.)

LorD BaZTArD sentenced:
Yeah, an afterthought, which is why it's broken in ports. I don't think that's really wise. IMO. Again you say what myk has been saying, in that "real doomers don't use ports to play doom" which is what I disagree with.

You genuinely do not understand, eh? I guess that'd be possible only if you participated in standard DOOM activity, by making wads for people to play on or record, or by playing a lot and recording (if not both.)

Bottom line is Hell Revealed II is a wad made by Doom2 fans (or at the very least in all cases wad authors accepting Doom2 as the platform for the maps for the project) and for Doom2 fans, or fans of the playing activity (i.e., demos and comments) generated by the first Hell Revealed. So it's for Doom2, and if any source mods support it so that other people (in addition to the target players) can enjoy it (or even the same players when they want to try it with a source mod as they please,) all the better. Just like any other wad that might be made with a certain player type and for a certain engine platform... so is HR2; you can't expect it to cater to the expectations or all source mod users just because it's a standard DOOM wad, it might suit many of them, but there is no guarantee that it will work properly or as intended with every engine, and not everyone will like it. So why bother when that is not the objective?

Note that for the authors to make a wad fully compatible with an assortment of engines they have to be checking on them all, changing stuff and testing with each source mod. That certainly adds production time; and keep in mind large projects are hard to complete and often die off not far from their completion. That reason in itself is enough to keep any mods that differ enough from Doom2 as an afterthought, if that, especially when it's clear enough that engines like PrBoom pretty much guarantee DOOM map support, and they run on modern OSs quite fine (Windows 2000/XP and Linux.)

Grazza said:
I can't do that myself; it was a suggestion to Bloodshedder or a passing supermod. I think Classic Doom General would be the right place for the non-HR2 discussion.

I agree completely, and I apologize for the momentary mess. This is certainly a subject to discuss, but amid the actual HR2 posts it's akin to spam.

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I'm going to attempt splitting this thing up. It might not be pretty, so hold on.

OK, just have to do a little cleaning and move the thread.

EDIT: Thanks to whoever re-opened this thing.

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You forgot to reopen the thread before moving it, heheh. Easily fixed...

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Hi, If you're going to have stupid arguments can you at least use the quote tags properly so they're readable. Thanks.

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Yeah... I guess fraggle gets to complain since he has to do the mopping up after us. All this hard and tedious toil and not a penny earned; the poor explioted soul.

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