Favorite Source Port? (Multiple Choice Poll)

Deathman said:

like I said in a thread a while ago, he just won't announce it. I have no idea why, and he doesn't even update his site about fixing his port etc. instead of announcing the new releases, he just emails me instead!

I've mentioned about releasing the source but he didn't seem to listen on that either...so..bleh.

This attitude won't help his source port at all. As good as it is I really cannot recommend it until he changes it radically.
Frankly, if I'd host his site I would have pressured him to do so or killed his site. It's just pathetic... :-(

*Frankly* I can't see where the source code has ants pants to do with how good a port is. It's ridiculous to imagine that *everyone* wants to look at the source or cares. He probably has his reasons and you should respect those reasons. He doesn't work for any of us does he?

If the damn thing is stable, reliable and good looking, WTF graf, let it be. His attitude has to be respected.

Is there some rule somewhere that says if Graf doesn't like it that's the end? Jesus man, you need to take a break from your constant slagging. Why don't you post something you've coded and the source of course so we can return the favor bud.

Frankly I recommend this port to anyone that likes JDOOM and want a bit more of the ole BOOM and MBF style flavor added. Visually much more stunning than ZDOOM, although it lacks scripting, that's not exactly something everyone does. Last time I looked some of the most amazing levels had no scripting at all.

Can't wait to see Edge work released either - wooot.

FireBastard said:

*Frankly* I can't see where the source code has ants pants to do with how good a port is. It's ridiculous to imagine that *everyone* wants to look at the source or cares.

Imagine you like Port X for its great features. But its author Y does not release the code. Then, half a year later Y chooses not do develop X any further and the source isn't released. So there won't be any further development and X will die. Just imagine that Boom had been released without source. Its development stopped abruptly in mid-1998. Without source this would have been it. All those gread advancements dead and gone because nobody would easily be able to pick them up. My fear is that exactly this will happen.

. He probably has his reasons and you should respect those reasons. He doesn't work for any of us does he?

So he based his port on many other people's hard work who shared it with everyone. But he doesn't although his work is based on the one of people who were more generous. Sorry but to me this is a pathetic attitude. If I'd take someone else's code which was freely given to me I'd feel obligated to make the result freely available as well. It's really a shame that the license allows him to keep his source because everything he used so far has been released under a license which does not require releasing the code (even though most of it has later been relicensed under the GPL.)

Remember: Without a community there is no real chance of advancement for a source port. And an author that is working in secret without contact to the outside world won't create one, even if his project is as good as it is in this case. It's the most extreme case of an imprenetrable wall I was complaining about in another thread. You don't know what gets in, you don't know what gets out and most importantly, you don't know what gets done.

Graf Zahl said:

.. stuff ..

Sure and imagine if the sun explodes tomorrow and you're dead. My god man, can't you ever stop with coming up with excuses for the silly things you post.

Whether the sun explodes or not has nothing to do with how much fun a port is to play. Imagine if every game that was released was evaluated on if the source was released. Too bad the world just doesn't operate that way. Read, very few care about these things.

You also have absolutely no idea why he does what he does. I don't either. And I have no idea of how "impenetrable a wall" you represent. IOW, cut out the muck raking comments - that's what slagging means. Try for a more positive attitude. If you don't know, don't pretend to know. (Like did you ever bother to look and realize that BSP2.3 and GLBSP are far removed from each other codewise - you were 0 for 3 in those posts).

For some weird reason, I think that the sun won't explode tomorrow and it's going to be a nice sunny day to enjoy. *Remember* there's a whole lot of benefit to having a positive attitude. Some of us will take our chances bud and enjoy what's there without all the worry.

FYI: Using FEAR as a tactic makes you a great life insurance salesman :)

Graf Zahl said:

Generally I'd agree. This is most definitely one of the most promising source ports. But:

-No source release (so we are utterly dependent on the author. If he quits it's dead.)
-How should anybody know about it if there is little to no 'advertisement' for it.

Not so....it is on sourceforge...and the source is posted, methinks.

FireBastard said:

Sure and imagine if the sun explodes tomorrow and you're dead. My god man, can't you ever stop with coming up with excuses for the silly things you post.

Whether the sun explodes or not has nothing to do with how much fun a port is to play. Imagine if every game that was released was evaluated on if the source was released. Too bad the world just doesn't operate that way. Read, very few care about these things.

You also have absolutely no idea why he does what he does. I don't either. And I have no idea of how "impenetrable a wall" you represent. IOW, cut out the muck raking comments - that's what slagging means. Try for a more positive attitude. If you don't know, don't pretend to know. (Like did you ever bother to look and realize that BSP2.3 and GLBSP are far removed from each other codewise - you were 0 for 3 in those posts).

For some weird reason, I think that the sun won't explode tomorrow and it's going to be a nice sunny day to enjoy. *Remember* there's a whole lot of benefit to having a positive attitude. Some of us will take our chances bud and enjoy what's there without all the worry.

FYI: Using FEAR as a tactic makes you a great life insurance salesman :)

If I weren't such a civilized person I'd call you names now.
To be blunt, I don't like your offensive postings at all. Obviously you cannot accept other people's opinions if they differ from your vision. And obviously you aren't even remotely interested in any civilized discussion so, please shut up!

WTF? You sure like to take a discussion down a notch don't you. I'll be blunt too. I can see that you can't take criticism the same way you deal it out. Seems I read you posting that somewhere where you tore apart some texture work and you seemed to think it was perfectly justified how else would they know right? Hey, this is a level playing field Bud, that was the same negative attitude you've shown here.

If there's someone that can't take criticsm, I'd look somewhere else. You can't just go around pissing on anything you don't like and not expect someone to disagree with you. IOW, what makes you so special that I can't disagree with you?

You should be to handle a discussion with someone who has a different from yours, otherwise don't post. Especially when you post stuff that is factually incorrect or merely opinion. Isn't that legit? My god man, all you did disagree that the source made a difference as to how cool a port is. That just doesn't make sense to me. It's my opinion and I have the simple right to disagree with you.

Frankly, it's not nice to have a slagging attitude towards the hard work put out by port authors and modifications with nitpicking. They don't work for you. Show us your work for a change and see good you take criticsm :)

My vision is one of appreciation, not nitpicking on what is obviously hard work.

Zdoom, without a doubt

You guys are gonna have to cool it or this thread is going bye-bye.

I completely agree with Graf. A port, be it good or no, that uses code freely given to that person, really should have it available. Not only for our benefit, but even the coder's benefit. I mean, the coder could get some unlooked for help with any problems/bugs the coder may encounter.

I'm not saying (and neither is graf) that the port automatically sucks because the code is not available, but it's a real let -down.

Mancubus II said:

but it's a real let -down.

I'd agree with that, but I don't think it makes the port any worse, since the source code is not particularly useful or necessary to the average end user, who will in all likelihood not be a coder.

Isn't the Doom source released under the GPL? And doesn't the GPL state that all derivatives of the source must also be open-source? So if someone made a port and didn't release the source, isn't that breaking the license agreement?

It's based on jDoom which is, IIRC, based on the earlier source release (not GPL) and the Heretic/Hexen source release.

From Risen3D_lic.txt:
The software is based on the original DOOM software released by id Software and is Copyright (C) 1993-1996 by id Software, Inc.

The original DOOM source is available for distribution and/or modification only under the terms of the DOOM Source Code License as published by id Software. All rights reserved. See Doomlic.txt.

Well, I generally use the following.

For single play:
PrBoom

For multiplayer:
ZDaemon
Skulltag

Occasionally I'll start up JDoom just to see the visuals it supports firsthand. My hardware isn't really sufficient for it to give enjoyable play.

Other ports I only use if some map or mod that I want to play requires it, or to use the bots that some of them have (but all the current bots have things wrong with them).

I tend to use Legacy quite a bit, I like the way it plays, it's rather close to original doom.exe but with fancier graphics and no more limitations.

I use ZDoom only when a wad is specifically designed for it. Otherwise I keep on using Legacy or doom2.exe when I am under Win98.

I used to like prBoom but the latest versions strangely don't really work on my computer (no save games, no demo recording).

I tried Eternity, it looks promising but the way it handles the mouse just piss me off, the acceleration is just too high. That sux.

JDoom is ok, but since I don't need ultra fancy graphics, I don't use it.

The answer is simple: You need all of them.
Playing a Jdoom wad? Can't use Legacy! Can't use Zdoom!
Playing a Zdoom wad? Can't use Jdoom! Can't use Legacy!
Playing a Legacy wad? Can't use Zdoom! Can't use Jdoom!
See? If you want to have fun with doom you need all of the source-ports. Except edge. You won't need that.

EDIT: "Playing a Jdoom wad" Should probably read "Playing doom 64".

I wouldn't say JDoom is popular with level authors, but lots of people chip in and make their own custom models/textures and stuff, so it has its share of plugin content.

I'd say its main purpose is to see how good you can make a game look while retaining the dead simple Doom map format - because thats what the bulk of features and addons are designed to do.

chilvence said:

I wouldn't say JDoom is popular with level authors...

Which doesn't surprise me considering that it has no real editing features except XG which even to me as an experienced programmer appears more like a convoluted mess than a real feature.

All other new features are implemented in a way that mostly existing levels benefit from them but they appear not to be for specific use in new projects.

Doomsday has been created for one reason: To play original Doom with enhanced graphics. IMHO it's the least editing friendly source port of all.

Epyo said:

EDIT: "Playing a Jdoom wad" Should probably read "Playing doom 64".

That perfectly sums up my opinion of JDoom. And the last version even has its own Exe so you don't even need JDoom anymore to play it...

IMHO it's the least editing friendly source port of all.

If you mean level editing then maybe...
It is more work than basic doom.exe editing but the results can be simply stunning.

In how many other doom sourceports can you make a 20ft tall fire breathing dragon, that breathes particle based flames that light up the whole room? Then once you've killed said dragon the floor on which it was standing crumbles and the dragons dead body falls through into the cave bellow with 3D chunks of rock flying every where?

XG isn't complicated - Don't be silly.

DaniJ said:

If you mean level editing then maybe...
It is more work than basic doom.exe editing but the results can be simply stunning.
In how many other doom sourceports can you make a 20ft tall fire breathing dragon, that breathes particle based flames that light up the whole room? Then once you've killed said dragon the floor on which it was standing crumbles and the dragons dead body falls through into the cave bellow with 3D chunks of rock flying every where?
XG isn't complicated - Don't be silly.

XG is awfully complicated for what it does. Using ACS and FS, you can accomplish anything that XG can do more efficiently, and with a fraction of the code. For instance the Jdoom jump pad method: "...or you use the floor chain to change the sector texture, change the sector type (to a type with wind vertical and horizontal) and after defined duration, return to the original type and texture" can be done in 2 short commands of FS, and as many or less in ACS.

As for the other points, Jdoom is one of the most limited ports in terms of editing. It's great for editing graphical effects though, and is just superb graphically in general.

ToXiCFLUFF said:

As for the other points, Jdoom is one of the most limited ports in terms of editing. It's great for editing graphical effects though, and is just superb graphically in general.

That it is. Its graphic features are really good but they are all implemented in a way that existing maps benefit most of them - there is almost no customizability built in to exploit them to maximum extent in custom levels - for example the wall glow height is one global value! No chance to have sectors with a weak glow and others with a strong glow. They all have to be the same.

Of course that doesn't make it bad but I certainly can understand why there is only one serious project out there that has been released for it.

Yeah I can understand what you mean when you compare XG to ACS but XG isn't a scripting language.

"...or you use the floor chain to change the sector texture, change the sector type (to a type with wind vertical and horizontal) and after defined duration, return to the original type and texture"

Ok you win, with XG it's 3 commands(mimicsector).

there is almost no customizability built in to exploit them to maximum extent in custom levels

What exactly are you refering to? Almost everything in Doomsday can be changed via ded files, then when it comes to distributing your map you simple package everything up into a nice neat pk3. Surely this is far easier that messing about inserting lumps into wads? Also you don't have to convert images/sounds as they go into the pk3 too. You can create your your own animated intros and mid mission briefings etc via InFine, you can create a dynamic soundtrack via XG...

I agree with you that it IS more work to do these things but Doomsday is actually very customizable.

Glow heights are being made so you can set them in a ded file (next version).

DaniJ said:

Yeah I can understand what you mean when you compare XG to ACS but XG isn't a scripting language.

It is a scripting language though.

As for the jump pad, perhaps a bad example. But, for instance the swinging light in Doom64 Absolution Map01, takes several pages of XG with the same chunk of code repeated with only minor value alterations. The same effect (also done by Kaiser) in FS but with 3 different shades of light took three short loops which could have been combined into one quite easily.

DaniJ said:

I agree with you that it IS more work to do these things but Doomsday is actually very customizable.

It is more so than vanilla Doom, but is much less rich in editing features than many other ports. Since the primary aim of the port is to enhance the original games, I suppose this isn't dreadfully important at the end of the day.

Graf: I'd disagree about the graphics features being implemented in a generalised way as to benefit any map, but also to inadvertently prevent much customisability. The flat glow feature, perhaps, but otherwise I think you have quite a lot of control over the effects in your map via a DED.

It is more so than vanilla Doom, but is much less rich in editing features than many other ports.

Definetly. I'd love to see Legacy's 3D floors and zDoom's slopes in Doomsday but this kinda stuff is a lot lower down on Skyjake's list o priorities.

The most important ones (from a mappers pov) are acs and polyobjects which will feature in the upcoming Doomsday 1.8 (the alpha is out soon).

It is a scripting language though

No XG is simply an eXtended General sector/line class system based on the Hexen sector/line classes. Yes there are a dozen or so other commands thrown in for good measure but it's basically no more than customiseable sector/line types...

But, for instance the swinging light in Doom64 Absolution Map01, takes several pages of XG with the same chunk of code repeated with only minor value alterations. The same effect (also done by Kaiser) in FS but with 3 different shades of light took three short loops which could have been combined into one quite easily.

I'm not familiar with how they implemented this but that sounds totally ott... It's possible to create a phased lighting cycle using 1 function with the light of the previous sector + eg 10%. I'll have a look at that as they probably had a good reason for doing it like they have.

Referring to XG: Even the simple Q3a bot configuration file are script, so I'd have to pursue the argument that it is :)

It's good to hear about the polyobjects and ACS, people may start to develop more for Jdoom after this. As well as the fact that I'm dying to see the fake radiosity feature.

Graf Zahl said:

Of course that doesn't make it bad but I certainly can understand why there is only one serious project out there that has been released for it.

We'll get round to finishing 'The Underworld'. Eventually. Honest.

No chance to have sectors with a weak glow and others with a strong glow. They all have to be the same.

Never thought about that; another thing i should have pointed out to Jaakko.

No chance to have sectors with a weak glow and others with a strong glow. They all have to be the same.

I think he's already got plans to do this anyway. Also you'll be able to use "lightmaps" on them soon - to create animated caustic effects.

I think Jdoom gets a bad reputation just because it has been relying unfinished, low quality models and texture packs to showcase it for such a long time. What has been seen so far is nothing compared to the visuals that could be made by someone with a real agenda.

Doomsday makes no secret of the fact that is focused on the graphics side of things, which is probably why the community is so different. Its pointless arguing whether Jdoom is better than Zdoom/Eternity/Edge or any of the map editing centric ports, because they perform in their respective fields exceedingly well, while for the most part neglecting the other sides. Its down to preference, or if youre smart, you'll just get them all...

The thing that gets me about Jdoom editing is that with every version, something is at risk of being changed to affect backward compatability. This is of course for major modifications, but still, nothing huge can be done aside from separating the project from the original app and ceasing development, a la the Doom64 TC. I can understand that editing isnt high on Jakes list, so this is fine by me, but it affects my desire to even attempt to make anything with the DoomsDay engine.

In what respect? The only reason the D64TC team had soo many problems was because they developed their own game dll. This can't be done in any other port and naturally there will be problems as your basically recoding Doom.
For simple mods or wad editing I know of nothing that has been changed to break compatibility.