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bartwart

Are games becoming too complicated?

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I remember reading an interview(I can't find the link!) by John Carmack where he discusses how general game play, in his opinion, is becoming too complicated. He points to RPG games coming with textbooks for manuals and FPS having too many controls. He went into how he had to fight within his own company to eliminate the use key for Doom 3, and that he lost the battle to elimnate the crouch key.

So is game play becoming too complicated? I'd have to agree up to a point. The gameplay mechanics with games like UT2k3 with it's dash-jumps and special combos, while nice, don't have the same charm as Doom. Just learning how to use the combos with skill requires time -which not all of us have- and practice.

In another thread Idiot Friend we heard the story of one guy who absolutely loathed Doom, in part because of it's simple game play, which is ironic because that's why a lot of people like the game.

The learning curve for Doom is a lot smaller than UT2K3, for instance. Doom has more of an arcade feel to it. UT2K3's gameplay is like if you mashed Doom with Street Fighter 2. *for those who know, becoming good at SF2 required a lot of practice*

Because Doom's gameplay is simplier, it's easier for the noob to jump in and become an "expert" in relatively little time. UT2K3, because of it's complexity, requires lots of time to become an expert.

In a way that was good and bad for the Unreal community. Those who did dedicate a lot of time got more enjoyment from the game. Yet a lot of noobs experienced frustration because of the complicated game play, and the fact that having a modem limits you to very few game servers(unlike Doom). Others, especially UT veterans, just didn't like having to learn a new way to play competitively. These are all contributing factors to UT2K3's high fan turnover rate. Hordes of people that started playing it just quit after a while and went back to their old stand-by games.

My point is that the gameplay needs to be easy enough to pick up quickly but not so simple that it hurts the experience. At some point the extra features get in the way of the gaming experience. One of the reasons I feel Doom is superior is that it has the right balance of puzzle solving, violence, and simple game play. Not many games have that.

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1) UT2003 has complicated gameplay? O_o
2) Who says you HAVE to become a master of a game? Can't you just play and enjoy it?
3) You don't have to use all those combos to play and enjoy the game.
4) It would take longer for a modern player to master Doom than UT2003.

I really can't see how you can call UT2003 complicated.
I'd say it's more like this: Shoot everything in sight/Do mission stuff and learn tricks along the way (combos).

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no, no, at least, not the way carmack's thinking. an fps is not too complicated because it has a crouch key and a use key, neither will add jack shit to the game's learning curve and may actually add to gameplay dynamics.

the reason many modern rpg's have giganto manuals is because of the nature of a true, in-depth rpg. so much statistical information about your character, the game world, and in-game npcs that has to be represented in game calls for explaining; most rpgs like this that i've played have in-game tutorials, tooltips, and help so that the manual serves mainly as a reference. i did not read 200 pages of the baldur's gate manual before i started playing.

speaking as a member of the 'disgruntled UT1 fans who think UT2K* is a crock of shit' committee, the UT2K* adrenaline system/combos are a good example of overcomplexity in a game, like you mentioned; these are extra, complex controls that must be memorized and may or may not be explained via an in-game mechanism, plus they make it harder for a mapper to properly balance a DM map.

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Liam the Bard said:

speaking as a member of the 'disgruntled UT1 fans who think UT2K* is a crock of shit' committee, the UT2K* adrenaline system/combos are a good example of overcomplexity in a game, like you mentioned; these are extra, complex controls that must be memorized and may or may not be explained via an in-game mechanism, plus they make it harder for a mapper to properly balance a DM map.


You bring up another good point that I didn't consider: Mapping. Making a map for Doom is a lot easier than making a map for UTX. If time is a precious commodity, a Doom mapper gets more freedom to focus on other design elements, like layout and flow, without having to worry about eye-candy so much. Plus, like you said, they don't have to worry about how the combos will effect the balance of the map. That's one less design factor to worry about.

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I think that the basics a game needs is Forward, Back, Left, Right, Look Up, Look Down, Center, Crouch, Jump, Run, and Use. (Also number key's for switching weapons). I do sometimes get annoyed learning how to control a completely new game, but once I learn it, it can make it better... or worse. Basically I feel that while some games are still complicated, sometimes it can be beneficial. It depends on the game.

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insertwackynamehere said:

I think that the basics a game needs is Forward, Back, Left, Right, Look Up, Look Down, Center, Crouch, Jump, Run, and Use. (Also number key's for switching weapons). I do sometimes get annoyed learning how to control a completely new game, but once I learn it, it can make it better... or worse. Basically I feel that while some games are still complicated, sometimes it can be beneficial. It depends on the game.


You forgot inventory. Scroll left, scroll right, use item.

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I don't find 99% of games to be too complicated, as long as they have an optional tutorial mode.

But yeah, I am sort of longing for more games with the basic, old fashioned control system.

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I'm a fan of System Shock 2's interface, controls, and player statistics... I think the game could have been longer and/or more open-ended, respawning enemies wasn't the best mechanism for keeping the levels alive (not that I can think of one better right now), but... overall, I liked it and didn't think it was too complex, even with all that stuff.

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dude the crouch function is like the best. i love crouching and creepin around. i crouch a TON!

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I don't think I ever use crouch. IMO, Quake had just the right amount of controls for an FPS game. Then again, I still like playing Descent 2 with a keyboard only, and it's the only way I'm capable of playing good on it, so I'm not really one to talk.

Edit: And just for the record, I don't see where the combos added complexity to UT2k3. I picked them up automatically without realizing it. And also for the record, I adore both UT and UT2k3 and play both regularly.

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AndrewB said:

Realism almost always comes at the expense of fun. Sorry, but that's just the known pattern.


making sweeping generalizations without defending your stance is awesome

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Liam the Bard said:

making sweeping generalizations without defending your stance is awesome

How is a generalization? I didn't say that there have never been games that are both realistic and fun, but realistically, developers that focus all their energy on realism tend to lose grip of fun factor. Do you disagree with this?

Now why don't you try defending your stance for a change, flamemonkey?

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I certainly know what you mean, but when Doom came out, surely it was more realistic than pretty much anything that had gone before - and a lot of effort had been put specifically into making it that way.

In the future, there will probably be games where the control interface is a full VR suit. Will that be regarded as complicated or simple?

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Grazza said:

In the future, there will probably be games where the control interface is a full VR suit. Will that be regarded as complicated or simple?

A VR suit is arguably far more complicated, but it will also be far more intuitive.

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AndrewB said:

How is a generalization? I didn't say that there have never been games that are both realistic and fun, but realistically, developers that focus all their energy on realism tend to lose grip of fun factor. Do you disagree with this?

Now why don't you try defending your stance for a change, flamemonkey?


how is it a flame? i didn't make a direct personal attack, merely a snide remark.

i won't argue over you with the definition of generalization; hell, i won't argue that most 'realistic' games are shitty; most games released period are at best mediocre, as far as i'm concerned. but it looks to me like you're arguing that a focus on realizing a 'realistic' game environment is somehow directly related to the fun factor. and i disagree, and i would note that burden of proof is on the accuser.

perhaps a mutual definition of 'realism' would be helpful.

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A little complexity is okay because it can create strategy. But when you have like 3 modes of crouch, 4 ways of looking back and forth, and more than two health/armor/stamina bars, you're pushing the edge of sanity.

And like Liam said, RPG manuals aren't very neccesary for playing the game. In fact, I never had to read any of the Black Isle D&D game manuals before I played them since I already knew the game rules. They mostly just have lists of spells and classes and what they do, plus handy charts in the back. Hell, Planescape: Torment didn't even have any spells and little if anything on the classes (not like there were many of those anyway), and it was pretty strightforward. Even Fallout, which was on a completely different game engine from what I was used to, was pretty easy to get in to.

Err...oops, rant.

EDIT: Paragraph Break

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An RPG (or any game for that matter) should start of seductively easy, and then gradually become challenging and complex. Studying for a game is ridiculous, unless you're drawn really deep into the later stages of the game and are looking to compete.

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AndrewB said:

An RPG (or any game for that matter) should start of seductively easy, and then gradually become challenging and complex. Studying for a game is ridiculous, unless you're drawn really deep into the later stages of the game and are looking to compete.

Well, thats exactly how all the games I mention go, though it seems a lot of people get lost at the beginning of Baldur's Gate because of its open-endedness and then quit.

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AndrewB said:

How is a generalization? I didn't say that there have never been games that are both realistic and fun, but realistically, developers that focus all their energy on realism tend to lose grip of fun factor. Do you disagree with this?

Now why don't you try defending your stance for a change, flamemonkey?


I think Unreal 2 is a good case in point. The realism was just mind blowing, but the replay factor was non-existent. It was six hours of play, and then what? $40 down the drain.

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OK, people, if you really must rake over tired old arguments and personal infights, keep it civilized.

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If people stop buying the games then they'll know that it's becoming a problem. Just because Mr. Carmack thinks games are getting to complex doesn't make it true. If there's a market for it, it'll sell. If there isn't it won't. I personally hate really complex games. I just wanna blow shit up. On teh other hand I know loads of people who get off on games like mechwarrior where there's 75 keys you need to use simultaneously just to move and shoot at the same time.

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Rellik said:

If people stop buying the games then they'll know that it's becoming a problem. Just because Mr. Carmack thinks games are getting to complex doesn't make it true. If there's a market for it, it'll sell. If there isn't it won't. I personally hate really complex games. I just wanna blow shit up. On teh other hand I know loads of people who get off on games like mechwarrior where there's 75 keys you need to use simultaneously just to move and shoot at the same time.


There's evidence that people are starting to not buy these games anymore. Atari and Activision made a lot less money (shockingly less) than they projected. Enter The Matrix was a flop. Unreal 2 is in the bargan bin. The Sims Online just ain't catching like EA had hoped. Heck, EA's biggest seller is the same old recycled Madden Football games.

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Rellik said, despite being unfamiliar with commas:
If people stop buying the games then they'll know that it's becoming a problem. Just because Mr. Carmack thinks games are getting to complex doesn't make it true. If there's a market for it, it'll sell. If there isn't it won't. I personally hate really complex games. I just wanna blow shit up. On teh other hand I know loads of people who get off on games like mechwarrior where there's 75 keys you need to use simultaneously just to move and shoot at the same time.


How dare you soil the Good Word of Carmack![/obligatory_fanoby_joke]

Everquest is selling like hotcakes, as well as Final Fantasy 11 and a slew of other MMORPG's. If those aren't considered complex controls, I don't know what does. Creating a functional character in those games requires the entire keyboard and an innate knowledge of how to use macros. And you thought macros were just for word processing.

In contrast, Game Boy is the highest-selling system of all time(with a total of 8 control buttons). And it's probably safe to say that half the people in the world have played Tetris in some form or another.

Carmack wants to fight over a "Use" and "Crouch" key? Let him. If he wants things to be so goddamn simple, why doesn't he just start programming for 2D again?

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Yeah, but there is a good reason for those three games flopping Bartwart. A very good reason, they sucked badly, they were little more than badly designed badly executed cash in games.

Personally, I think that having more controls does not make a game complex. What makes a game complex is the way it reacts to you the player. If a game needs to add hundreds of controls to do that instead of decent levels and design, then it's a problem.

In the case of UT2k3/4 I think the new additions are a good idea. Those combinations and dodge tricks add a new level to the game, with no extra controls at all. All you do is use existing controls in a combination to unlock new options. Something which is not new.

I mean christ, fighting games have used stuff like this for many years, giving you basic controls and secret combinations for more powerful attacks. Suddenly UT2k3 adds in the adrenaline system and it's far too complex? Fuck off, just fuck off and stop playing games so you can let people who want to try new things online. I mean seriously, what's wrong with a jump button or a crouch button? It gives you extra movement options. I want to see more games take this route, like Max Payne and Jedi Knight. Max Payne can dive, flip and dodge around with the addition of a couple of extra buttons. Jedi Knight uses existing movement buttons for you to take advantage of to give you new stances/positions for better attacks. Stuff like this is a great idea.

Intuitive control systems make playing a game far better, far better. I'd rather play UT2k3 or Jedi Knight than another cookie cutter shooter.

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Danarchy said:

Well, thats exactly how all the games I mention go, though it seems a lot of people get lost at the beginning of Baldur's Gate because of its open-endedness and then quit.

Yes, but that doesn't mean "games are becoming too complicated". All RPGs are complicated, both current RPGs and RPGs from 10 and 20 years ago.

Games are NOT getting too complicated or even more complicated than they always were. They're getting more detailed (the detail in general being irrelevant to gameplay).

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Numbermind said:

Carmack wants to fight over a "Use" and "Crouch" key? Let him. If he wants things to be so goddamn simple, why doesn't he just start programming for 2D again?

Heh.

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Lord Baztard:

I was enjoying your post until I read this:

LorD BaZTArD said:

Fuck off, just fuck off and stop playing games so you can let people who want to try new things online.


Like I'm stopping anyone from playing games or that I want everyone to bow to my whim! Why don't you fuck off, just fuck off and stop posting so you can let people who want to discuss things online.

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